Problems With Liberal Democracy

jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Let me know who's policy is putting mtf prisoners in female prisons and then shockingly you wind up with pregnancies.

Is this sound policy?
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
A couple of things jump out at me from the last few posts.

1) Whether or not the Democrats are too obsessed with identity politics to do there jobs, it doesn't give the GOP any justification for trying to overturn/steal an election they lost fair and square. Nor, does it excuse trying to rig the electoral system to ensure permanent rule by minority.

2) Equal opportunity is more myth than substance. Does anyone really believe that the rodents sire by the Trump and Kushner clans would have achieved anything of note if they had grown up in a trailer park?
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
This is a big issue?
If a singular example for starters. But it isn't. Just think about the layers of bureaucracy that had to rubber stamp this. Look at that poor woman called out at Wu salon in LA. Totally pilloried and then come to find out the mtf was a sex offender in there with a full on erection. She was dragged through the mud.

Then a school system that covered up two sex assaults including moving the mtf student to another school like catholics did with priest.

Now we are at the point of social and job ghettoization if you refuse to participate in someones mental health therapy
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
A couple of things jump out at me from the last few posts.

1) Whether or not the Democrats are too obsessed with identity politics to do there jobs, it doesn't give the GOP any justification for trying to overturn/steal an election they lost fair and square. Nor, does it excuse trying to rig the electoral system to ensure permanent rule by minority.

2) Equal opportunity is more myth than substance. Does anyone really believe that the rodents sire by the Trump and Kushner clans would have achieved anything of note if they had grown up in a trailer park?
I agree I'm not for trying to overturn an election. Far as gerrymandering both parties are equally guilty of it and they are both always attempting to try that balance the elections in their favor far as gerrymandered and redistrict.

so i don't buy the second part of your first point.

On your second point life simply isn't fair it's always been that way it'll always be that way and I'm not about to go chopping off heads to make other people my same height.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
WRT "Like equal opportunity in the sense there's a minimum wage for a given pos", that's just fair wages- minimum wage has nothing to do with opportunity, which means "anyone can apply for this job" but people need to understand that some jobs just won't pay well. This is part of the reason I don't like the arguments for illegals being hired- the ones who are in favor say "They do jobs Americans won't". While it's true, I think it's insulting to the illegals and the ones who "don't want to do those jobs" see themselves as more important than they are, think they're worth higher pay or think those jobs are 'beneath them' for whatever reason they choose. Used to be that if someone needed to support themselves and a family, they would do whatever it took. Now, we have fast food workers who can't get a simple order right and they want fifteen bucks/hour. Some skilled trade jobs don't pay much more than that.

I also see a lot of well-dressed panhandlers, too. They don't even bother to pick up the trash they leave on the ground and often, they stand directly next to traffic light poles which have signs with "Keep the change- panhandling is illegal".

If a group is specifically targeted (for or against), it's obviously not equal opportunity.

If you want people to stop trying to do better, sure but merit-based results in achievement and creativity. Sure, a small percentage of people have to work harder/smarter/more creatively as part of their character, but human nature eventually kills that, too.

Equal outcome, as in Communist countries? Yeah, that works great. Ever discuss this with someone who lived under Communism? I have yet to meet one who thought it was a good system or that it worked.

Most people who make a lot of noise about 'fair wages' and 'living wage' are in favor of it until they have to pay someone to do something for them.
Equitable in the market sense. The best dishwasher might make $17 vs the average who make $15.

Equal opportunity but not equal outcome beyond minimum wage.

Merit based is the only one that works.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Bottom line is voting in elections in the US work like they're supposed to. I don't buy any of the old it is stolen and I do not buy that the vote is suppressed. I always love the left-leaning disposition that persons of color don't know how to go obtain an id or license to vote. I love the position that it's discriminatory to require some sort of ID when you vote.
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
It's really Trump era where democracy is in trouble.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
I agree I'm not for trying to overturn an election.
Oh they will be with the economy at stake. Plus I imagine that's why many stayed silent during the '20 election. I'm sure McConnell wasn't in a hurry to end the 60 or so court cases petitioning the results.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I agree I'm not for trying to overturn an election. Far as gerrymandering both parties are equally guilty of it and they are both always attempting to try that balance the elections in their favor far as gerrymandered and redistrict.

so i don't buy the second part of your first point.

On your second point life simply isn't fair it's always been that way it'll always be that way and I'm not about to go chopping off heads to make other people my same height.
It isn't just gerrymandering, which the GOP have been doing to a far higher degree than the Dems.


Let's be honest. The GOP isn't trying to implement these restrictions to protect election integrity. Voting restrictions would benefit them. I actually don't oppose having a valid ID to vote. But, having just read this, I understand why there is opposition to it. It deprives many poor people of their right to vote.

And "chopping off heads to make other people my same height" is engineering an equal outcome, making it a strawman, as that's not what I was talking about. You're right about life being unfair. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it more fair.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Oh they will be with the economy at stake. Plus I imagine that's why many stayed silent during the '20 election. I'm sure McConnell wasn't in a hurry to end the 60 or so court cases petitioning the results.
but here's my point if our election system works which it does all that other stuff is just signal to noise
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it more fair.
OK what's that look like to you? Can you find me any code or law on the books that represent a straight up systemic restriction against protected classes of people?

By the way I believe in some form of redressement and I think it needs to be investment in communities that have been typically underserved I don't think it should be individual checks just needs to be money that goes in infrastructure where people normally just haven't had that.
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
Where did I say equal outcome? I said equal opportunity. There are other difficulties though. If you let the free market totally run itself would employees automatically employee people the darker their pigment is? Dunno.
The free market, as invented by Adam Smith and subsequent economists - REQUIRES - strict and heavy regulation to ensure that it remains "free" for all participants, and is not distorted by monopolies or oligopolies.

The right wing Libertarian approach of a completely deregulated market is NOT a "free market" - as multiple economists, and historians have pointed out - a deregulated market will naturally tend towards monopolies - these in turn will reduce the freedom of competition in the market ... the "Free" in "Free Market".

Free is not "Anarchist" - it is a market where the Freedom to compete is ensured by strict regulation.

The current markets have moved further and further from being "Free" due to multiple generations of administrations choosing NOT to exercise the controls/regulations they have, and therefore resulting in multiple distortions to the freedom to compete.

A true "Free Market" - is regulated (as per Adam Smith, et. al.), to ensure outcomes that benefit society.... heaven to betsy!!! The Free Market is a Socialist construct!!!

Equity / Equal opportunity - is a whole spectrum of different things - but a Free Market requires equality of opportunity for all participants including the smallest player in the market - and that is not what we have today.
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
you do realize if you spin the clock back to 1777 that voting has become so unrestricted that it's amazingly accommodating.
Gerrymandering has to do with artificial alterations to electoral boundaries to generate artificial electoral outcomes... not directly related to voting restrictions.

Personally I far prefer Australia's compulsory voting system - with an independent electoral body, that runs elections and polling booths...
Most elections, we can vote at any convenient polling booth anywhere in the nation, voting can be done several weeks ahead of the election (for those who might be away, or working on election day), or we can send in a postal vote.

No ID's are required, and the electoral commission verifies that each registered voter votes only once.

Most of the issues with the US voting system are own goals, caused by generations of politicians seeking advantage at the polls - it is crazy distorted!
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
OK what's that look like to you? Can you find me any code or law on the books that represent a straight up systemic restriction against protected classes of people?

By the way I believe in some form of redressement and I think it needs to be investment in communities that have been typically underserved I don't think it should be individual checks just needs to be money that goes in infrastructure where people normally just haven't had that.
It is possible, to set up a system where an independent electoral body, ensures that convenient polling booths are available to all communities, and early voting and/or voting by mail is available where access to the booths might be constrained - plenty of examples worldwide.

The USA however appears singularly unable to look beyond those "hard" border walls.... (or unwilling to break down barriers that are electorally advantageous)
 

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