Best subs for strictly music that'll make me feel the drums?

S

Serdman

Audiophyte
I'm in search of a pair of subs that will be my (theoretical) endgame. The room is slightly over 5000 ^3 feet and its kind of an awkward layout. The living room, kitchen, and dining room are all one massive rectangle. I'm rocking 2 SVS SB 1000 pros right now and you can gather they're undersized quite quickly. Primary focus of the system is music. Have a pair of Klipsch Cornwall 1's being fed from a Peachtree Nova 150. I want subs that are powerful enough to make the music impactful, but still retain transients. Listen to mostly metalcore/rock. Size does not matter. Budget $3000-$4000
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
My choice would be a pair of these.
These are another good choice.
PSA is another great choice.
If staying with svs, this is their best value.

You could also DIY some insane subs for that kind of money. @JasonGSG can help with some great options there.
Definitely need to find somewhere else for the SB’s lol.
 
S

Serdman

Audiophyte
My choice would be a pair of these.
These are another good choice.
PSA is another great choice.
If staying with svs, this is their best value.

You could also DIY some insane subs for that kind of money. @JasonGSG can help with some great options there.
Definitely need to find somewhere else for the SB’s lol.
I have spoken to Jason! Seems like a solid choice and best bang for buck but assembling them would be quite troublesome in my current living situation
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I have spoken to Jason! Seems like a solid choice and best bang for buck but assembling them would be quite troublesome in my current living situation
GSG I believe also sells full cabinets but imagine the shipping gets a bit pricey for those....the assembly wouldn't be as invasive as the finishing, tho.
 
D

dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
Kick drums are between 50Hz and 90Hz depending on tuning - so they are clearly in woofer rather than "sub" woofer territory! (debatable I know)

But the point I want to make, is that in days of yore I used to listen to Boston Acoustics A400 speakers - with dual 8" woofers - and the kickdrum thump - would definitely hit you in the chest....

That floor standing speaker, was a sealed infinite baffle design...

Also sealed subs are often better with that sort of tight fast sound (from my own experience) - It doesn't need to be overly large - Subs with 8" to 10" drivers can do this job just fine - and often will do so with lower distortion and more clarity.

This isn't about low subsonic bass - but it will be about the ability to achieve the desired SPL's cleanly within that 50Hz to 90Hz range.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'd think many pro style subs would work if you don't need much below 30hz "for music" but personally I find subs that go much lower more useful in general "for music". YMMV.
 
S

Serdman

Audiophyte
Kick drums are between 50Hz and 90Hz depending on tuning - so they are clearly in woofer rather than "sub" woofer territory! (debatable I know)

But the point I want to make, is that in days of yore I used to listen to Boston Acoustics A400 speakers - with dual 8" woofers - and the kickdrum thump - would definitely hit you in the chest....

That floor standing speaker, was a sealed infinite baffle design...

Also sealed subs are often better with that sort of tight fast sound (from my own experience) - It doesn't need to be overly large - Subs with 8" to 10" drivers can do this job just fine - and often will do so with lower distortion and more clarity.

This isn't about low subsonic bass - but it will be about the ability to achieve the desired SPL's cleanly within that 50Hz to 90Hz range.
thats a great point you make! any recommendations on products to check out?
 
D

dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
thats a great point you make! any recommendations on products to check out?
I haven't' shopped for subs in years... the Kef KC62 looks pretty neat though... (and is around your budget)

I have a pair of Gallo TR1's that do a nice job... - which I've had for about 10 years... they would probably be a bargain on the used market... (TR1 or TR3)

Just look for true sealed designs... fully sealed - where the pressurised air inside forms part of the suspension for the drivers... not the designs where they put a semi-plug in the port and call it sealed - they are currently out of fashion - they use slightly differently designed drivers, with a softer suspension I believe, and the air inside then forms part of the suspension of the driver, resulting in lower distortion - they tend towards being a little less efficient (lower SPL/w) but they also, as a genre, tend to do a LOT (!) better on music - get the tones/harmonics right, rather than the earthquake effects.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I haven't' shopped for subs in years... the Kef KC62 looks pretty neat though... (and is around your budget)

I have a pair of Gallo TR1's that do a nice job... - which I've had for about 10 years... they would probably be a bargain on the used market... (TR1 or TR3)

Just look for true sealed designs... fully sealed - where the pressurised air inside forms part of the suspension for the drivers... not the designs where they put a semi-plug in the port and call it sealed - they are currently out of fashion - they use slightly differently designed drivers, with a softer suspension I believe, and the air inside then forms part of the suspension of the driver, resulting in lower distortion - they tend towards being a little less efficient (lower SPL/w) but they also, as a genre, tend to do a LOT (!) better on music - get the tones/harmonics right, rather than the earthquake effects.
You mean acoustic suspension from the old days or just an airtight box with modern stuff? Or are you referring to some ported designs that with port plugs/dsp settings that can imitate certain sealed functions?

A dual opposed 6.5" "sub"? Seriously? For $1500 yet? Good grief. Why is such a small box desired? Hamstringing a sub doesn't mean it's more musical....good grief.
 
D

dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
You mean acoustic suspension from the old days or just an airtight box with modern stuff? Or are you referring to some ported designs that with port plugs/dsp settings that can imitate certain sealed functions?

A dual opposed 6.5" "sub"? Seriously? For $1500 yet? Good grief. Why is such a small box desired? Hamstringing a sub doesn't mean it's more musical....good grief.
Been some interesting reviews of that one:


Yes I do mean acoustic suspension from the old days (still current in designs like the KC62, or the Gallo TR1/TR3) - it uses a softer woofer surround - less resistance/less distortion - but still achieves the required suspension action through the compression of the air within the sealed Box/Cylinder...
Most of the woofers available today, are designed for ported designs - so they have much heavier suspension surrounds.

It does have constraints... if you consider max SPL output of 105db a constraint.

If the listener is a fan of the Harman Curve with +10db in the bass, and uses an average listening volume of 85db - then it isn't a constraint - you still have 20db of headroom
My own average listening level is around 75db... so this would be far from constraining !!

But tastes, and the ability to bear loud sounds, varies with the listener - some might seek max SPL's of 110db or more... - not me!

Also I strongly believe that many (most?) subwoofers sacrifice distortion for SPL's - they go low and loud, but they also have very high THD - which matters not at all for a home theatre LFE subwoofer, intended for explosions and earthquakes.... but if you want to get the tone of a double bass or Harp right, (bottom note fundamentals of 41Hz and 31Hz respectively) - then most of the "effects" focused subs are a bit of a "blunt tool".

there's a discussion of sealed vs ported on the SVS website:

To quote: "A properly designed sealed subwoofer will typically exhibit less phase rotation, lower group delay, and reduced ringing in the time domain. Sealed cabinet subwoofers are generally more accurate in frequency response and better at rendering instrumentals in a convincing way. These characteristics make the sealed subwoofer a natural choice for critical music applications and are typically described by enthusiasts as sounding tighter and more articulate or musical, with less perceived overhang. "

Downside: "a sealed subwoofer will typically have considerably lower dynamic output limits than a ported subwoofer in the same family/price range. "

I'm a fan of the sealed genre.... - the SVS article goes into further detail on the advantages of the ported genre... they make both.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Sorry but I don’t see how 8-10” subs will support a pair of Cornwalls in 5000cuft. Especially with this type of music. The main reason you can “feel” kick drums is a function of spl. So you really have to be playing fairly loud. As you’ve found out already, the SB1000 pro’s very quickly run out of steam. This will be true of most sealed subs in this application.
Imo, the sealed for music thing must go away. Modern subwoofers are designed to be accurate whether they are sealed or ported. The main difference is that sealed subs roll add around 35hz which may be fine for much music, but I agree with HD in that I prefer the output and extension of quality ported subs. Also the group delay “issue” of ported subs is far below the typical music range and really a non issue. I also believe a lot of modern kicks(or samples) are closer to 40hz as are my own kick drums. That’s a lot of energy that would be best served by larger ported subs. Imo. Also pro subs might be an option too, but they can be pretty unappealing lol.
Maybe @shadyJ can offer some more insight.
Ok. Back to bed…
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Kick drums are between 50Hz and 90Hz depending on tuning - so they are clearly in woofer rather than "sub" woofer territory! (debatable I know)

But the point I want to make, is that in days of yore I used to listen to Boston Acoustics A400 speakers - with dual 8" woofers - and the kickdrum thump - would definitely hit you in the chest....

That floor standing speaker, was a sealed infinite baffle design...

Also sealed subs are often better with that sort of tight fast sound (from my own experience) - It doesn't need to be overly large - Subs with 8" to 10" drivers can do this job just fine - and often will do so with lower distortion and more clarity.

This isn't about low subsonic bass - but it will be about the ability to achieve the desired SPL's cleanly within that 50Hz to 90Hz range.
Most of the driver choices for the GSGs extended well beyond 100hz and with thoughtful setup, running a crossover as high as 120hz is possible without localization.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Sorry but I don’t see how 8-10” subs will support a pair of Cornwalls in 5000cuft. Especially with this type of music. The main reason you can “feel” kick drums is a function of spl. So you really have to be playing fairly loud. As you’ve found out already, the SB1000 pro’s very quickly run out of steam. This will be true of most sealed subs in this application.
Imo, the sealed for music thing must go away. Modern subwoofers are designed to be accurate whether they are sealed or ported. The main difference is that sealed subs roll add around 35hz which may be fine for much music, but I agree with HD in that I prefer the output and extension of quality ported subs. Also the group delay “issue” of ported subs is far below the typical music range and really a non issue. I also believe a lot of modern kicks(or samples) are closer to 40hz as are my own kick drums. That’s a lot of energy that would be best served by larger ported subs. Imo. Also pro subs might be an option too, but they can be pretty unappealing lol.
Maybe @shadyJ can offer some more insight.
Ok. Back to bed…
Sealed subs will generate more harmonic distortion but less phase distortion. Harmonic distortion is generally a lot more audible than phase distortion. Group delay is a type of phase distortion. But this all depends on how either the phase distortion or harmonic distortion is manifesting. Lots of group delay at higher frequencies would be pretty audible, and if the harmonic distortion is comprised of higher-order components, that is also very audible.

Also, no modern loudspeakers or especially subs are made in accordance with acoustic suspension principles that were advanced by Edgar Vilchur in the 1950s. Back then, the magnets weren't as powerful, so they didn't act as well as the restoring force of the moving assembly. These days the magnets are so much more powerful, especially in subwoofers. The motor is overwhelmingly the restoring force unless the moving assembly moves so far out that the suspension tension is what restrains its motion.
 
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T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
Well, I admire the restraint of the group here as usually the mention of any Klipsch speaker elicits a response that is less than kind. Hey, I’m a fan. I miss my Forte II speakers more than my parents. No, they are not dead, but I’d rather have the speakers. It’s telling that two SVS 1000 subs can’t get the job done. Why is anybody suggesting anything other than two 15” ported subs at a minimum for the kind of music and room involved here? Big loads require big power at low rpm. This is why big rigs don’t have several small engines winding out at full throttle trying to carry big loads. You wanna’ talk about noise? Get the biggest, baddest ported f#%kers within the budget and rock on.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Well, I admire the restraint of the group here as usually the mention of any Klipsch speaker elicits a response that is less than kind. Hey, I’m a fan. I miss my Forte II speakers more than my parents. No, they are not dead, but I’d rather have the speakers. It’s telling that two SVS 1000 subs can’t get the job done. Why is anybody suggesting anything other than two 15” ported subs at a minimum for the kind of music and room involved here? Big loads require big power at low rpm. This is why big rigs don’t have several small engines winding out at full throttle trying to carry big loads. You wanna’ talk about noise? Get the biggest, baddest ported f#%kers within the budget and rock on.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Well, I admire the restraint of the group here as usually the mention of any Klipsch speaker elicits a response that is less than kind
I seem to recall someone, not you, comparing Klipsch treble to lava pouring into the ear channel. :p
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I'm in search of a pair of subs that will be my (theoretical) endgame. The room is slightly over 5000 ^3 feet and its kind of an awkward layout. The living room, kitchen, and dining room are all one massive rectangle. I'm rocking 2 SVS SB 1000 pros right now and you can gather they're undersized quite quickly. Primary focus of the system is music. Have a pair of Klipsch Cornwall 1's being fed from a Peachtree Nova 150. I want subs that are powerful enough to make the music impactful, but still retain transients. Listen to mostly metalcore/rock. Size does not matter. Budget $3000-$4000
In that budget, you could get three or four Hsu ULS-15 mk2s. That will have many times the punch of a couple of SB-1000s. I wouldn't be surprised if three ULS-15 mk2s could hit 125dB in-room. That would keep up with your Cornwalls easily.
 
D

dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
Sorry but I don’t see how 8-10” subs will support a pair of Cornwalls in 5000cuft. Especially with this type of music. The main reason you can “feel” kick drums is a function of spl. So you really have to be playing fairly loud. As you’ve found out already, the SB1000 pro’s very quickly run out of steam. This will be true of most sealed subs in this application.
Imo, the sealed for music thing must go away. Modern subwoofers are designed to be accurate whether they are sealed or ported. The main difference is that sealed subs roll add around 35hz which may be fine for much music, but I agree with HD in that I prefer the output and extension of quality ported subs. Also the group delay “issue” of ported subs is far below the typical music range and really a non issue. I also believe a lot of modern kicks(or samples) are closer to 40hz as are my own kick drums. That’s a lot of energy that would be best served by larger ported subs. Imo. Also pro subs might be an option too, but they can be pretty unappealing lol.
Maybe @shadyJ can offer some more insight.
Ok. Back to bed…
And yet one of my favourite speakers for kick drum "chest thump" was the Boston A400 - a full range speaker sporting two 8" woofers.
 
D

dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
I will however add this comment - the chest thump I recall experiencing with the Boston A400, was from the Money for Nothing track of Brothers in Arms by Dire straits - roughly 1 minute into the track, and on the original first release... (1985) - The same track on releases from 87 and later, including ALL the remasters, has been neutered.... - that frequency band has been sucked out... there is no thump. (you can still hear it... but the visceral chest thump is gone, and it sounds subdued, lost in with the rest of the recording... whereas previously it was a short, sharp, and shocking exclamation mark)

Sometimes the issue is not the setup/system, but the recording!
 

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