Advice on Kef R11s or Martin Logan Motion XTI60

[lovinthehd]

Agreed, it is as I'm new to that aspect for audio. I know there are many more out there. That's all I could think of at the moment

Well, Marantz is more a brand than a manufacturer....same for Parasound. Amps only mean so much, too.

 

[Michi70]

Well I went to a place that carried quite a few different brands of speakers. They didn't have the KEF R11's, but they did have the R7's. We did a side by side with the R7's, Sonus Faber Sonetto V, and the Paradigm Founder 100F's. Rotel pre amp was used with a Hegel amp (don't know what the models of those were). We listened to Metallica and Sabbath. The KEK R7's sounded more compressed and muddy to both the Sonetto and 100F's.

Both the Sonetto and 100Fs were more detailed. The 100F's had a very nice bass response out of the three speakers. These new Paradigms would be the front runner.

Revel is not carried in my area, except for one retailer, which I'm going to check on tomorrow. Figured I'd share the update with you all given all the nice advice. I'd be more or less resigned to getting an amp in the future at this point. I watched the review that Gene and James did on the 100Fs. Informative stuff

Valid points by all to make sure if the money is going to be spent, explore the options.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We listened to Metallica and Sabbath. The KEK R7's sounded more compressed and muddy to both the Sonetto and 100F's.

Both the Sonetto and 100Fs were more detailed.

There’s details in Metallica and Sabbath music?

 

[Michi70]

Well I am I bit narrow in my musical taste I must admit .

Its like in the Blues Brothers, where the walk into Bob's Country Bunker, where they have both kinds of music, country and western, or in my case, heavy and metal .

We did listen to Sabotage from Sabbath on Tidal which is one of their more progressive records, but yes the separation of the instruments was night and day. I really want to see what the Revels sound like tomorrow.

 

[Beave]

Well I went to a place that carried quite a few different brands of speakers. They didn't have the KEF R11's, but they did have the R7's. We did a side by side with the R7's, Sonus Faber Sonetto V, and the Paradigm Founder 100F's. Rotel pre amp was used with a Hegel amp (don't know what the models of those were). We listened to Metallica and Sabbath. The KEK R7's sounded more compressed and muddy to both the Sonetto and 100F's.

Both the Sonetto and 100Fs were more detailed. The 100F's had a very nice bass response out of the three speakers. These new Paradigms would be the front runner.

Revel is not carried in my area, except for one retailer, which I'm going to check on tomorrow. Figured I'd share the update with you all given all the nice advice. I'd be more or less resigned to getting an amp in the future at this point. I watched the review that Gene and James did on the 100Fs. Informative stuff

Valid points by all to make sure if the money is going to be spent, explore the options.

It's great that you're getting out to listen to various speakers before you buy, but keep in mind:

Bass response is largely room- and placement-dependent. Were the KEF R7s placed next to the Paradigms? Ideally, they'd have to be in the exact same spot - meaning listen to one, remove it, put the other in that same spot, and listen to them. Not exactly convenient to do. Being right next to each other in the same room is usually ok, but not quite ideal.

If they were in different places around the room, all bets are off.

If two speakers are in different rooms altogether, you're comparing rooms just as much as you're comparing the speakers (keep that in mind when you listen to the Revels at another dealer).

Ideally, you'd want to try them in your own room, but that's often not practical.

Here's measurements for the Paradigm Founder 100s from the NRC. Results are similar to the review done here by James.

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2557:nrc-measurements-paradigm-founder-series-100f-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

 

[Michi70]

The R7's, Paradigms, and Sonetto V's were placed next to each other in the same room. I did check the Soundstage review right after watching James' review.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The R7's, Paradigms, and Sonetto V's were placed next to each other in the same room.

The point was that the speaker that got the best PLACEMENT in the room has the advantage.

So to be fair, you would have to SWAP their positions - place the KEF in the same spot as the Sonetto (if the Sonetto sounded the best).

 

[lovinthehd]

The R7's, Paradigms, and Sonetto V's were placed next to each other in the same room. I did check the Soundstage review right after watching James' review.

Then again while nice to have speakers in same positions, also good to have a level matched blind listening session....the room being such a large influence I wouldn't get carried away with details of a listen in one particular room....best place is your own room....

 

[ParisB]

I dunno man, "compressed and muddy" sounds like something is amiss. That's like saying you test drove an M3 and it drove loose and sloppy.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I dunno man, "compressed and muddy" sounds like something is amiss. That's like saying you test drove an M3 and it drove loose and sloppy.

I also have a difficult time seeing how any of these speakers mentioned sound muddy and compressed - unless something is amiss.

But we do see similar descriptions of practically ANY speaker and electronic brands, which lead many of us to believe that the room Acoustics and Placement (in addition to other things amiss) are significant factors.

 

[Michi70]

I agree with your points, AcuDef and Paris, but I am telling you what my ears heard. The speakers were all next to each other with about an inch or two of space between the toe of each speaker was very gently pointed in. I was about 15 feet back and seated. The sales rep was able to toggle back and forth between the three speakers. There was plenty of space behind the speakers, a few feet. We were in a listening room with the doors shut.

In a separate stereo shop yesterday that I visited, I listened to the KEF R3s v the Paradigm 40B that were directly next to each other (not in the same spot, I understand), it seems the 40Bs were more crisp sounding. On a separate note as we were talking, the salesperson shared some information from their KEF rep. There might be a refresh for the R series and that it had something to do with the Meta line.

I was not able to see the Revel dealer, that's coming up tomorrow for a consultation. I was doing a bit more reading, the Revel Performa3 series is going on 8-9 years old , pretty solid longevity.

 

[Michi70]

Update. Nice visit with the Revel dealer this afternoon and listened to the R208s. They were hooked up through a Rogue tube amplifier. They were very nice and flat sounding just like you all have told me and from what I've read online. I get it now.

The real challenge is that speakers like the KEF R series and Revel are all good. Different amps from different manufacturers make the speaker sound unique especially with a flat sounding speaker. Maybe that is why I thought the Paradigm Founders and the Sonetto Vs sounded better than the KEF R7s the other day. It can be quite a process. Other amps need to be tried and its what your own ears may prefer compared to another person's ears.

 

[floptop]

I'm running a Yamaha Advantage RXA-1070 and it is long past due for me to update my old, but well maintained Infinity Studio Monitor speakers. I've had the SMs' for 27 years for 5.1 theater and listening to 2 channel music. I've changed my listening habits to mostly 2 channel music over the 27 years, but once and a while enjoy a good DVD. The matching BU-150 sub has finally died was taken to be recycled. I spent a lot of time listening to speakers at Magnolia in Best Buy and a very good independent home audio and theater store in my area.

I ruled out the Klipsch RF-7 v. iii. Nice speaker but preferred the KEF R11 over it. Then I started to think if my Yamaha would even be able to run the KEF R11s at a decent volume. Started looking at the Martin Logan Motion XTI 60s instead as a more viable speaker set to replace the Infinity SMs. The money saved by going with 2 XTI 60s over the KEF R11s would allow me to save around $2000 and put that money back into a center channel and surround speakers with some left over.

If I went with the KEF R11s I have read I would need to update the Yamaha AVR with an amplifier or just start over. My listening room is 23 ft L by 14 ft W (and I need to get out of this apartment into a house!). The KEF R11s are sweet, but seem like overkill for the room plus the expense entailed. I appreciate the help and advice for the community here for my conundrum.

Here's a couple reviews we did on the Motion60s and the Q950s. A lot of the characteristics of Uni-Q are consistent between the Q950 and R11s.

 

[Michi70]

I didn't update you guys on what ended up happening for my speaker decision. I ended up getting the Kef R11s' and then took them back to Best Buy. The were shipped via UPS and the boxes were just beat up all to heck (and punctured in a couple of spots) during shipping. I never even opened them and had a buddy help me take them back to Best Buy. Given what was paid for the speakers I told the store manager that I expected much better handling, the boxes should have been shipped on a pallet and shrink wrapped in place. The Best Buy manager was shocked at the condition of the boxes.

Then I got distracted with life in general and now I see that there are lots of good end of year speaker sales going on for the same Kef R series, the Revel F208s, Polk R700s, and other brands. I haven't seen too much about the Paradigm Founders series since Shady J's review.

 

[lovinthehd]

I didn't update you guys on what ended up happening for my speaker decision. I ended up getting the Kef R11s' and then took them back to Best Buy. The were shipped via UPS and the boxes were just beat up all to heck (and punctured in a couple of spots) during shipping. I never even opened them and had a buddy help me take them back to Best Buy. Given what was paid for the speakers I told the store manager that I expected much better handling what was paid. The boxes should have been shipped on a pallet and shrink wrapped in place. The Best Buy manager was shocked at the condition of the boxes.

Then I got distracted with life in general and now I see that there are lots of good end of year speaker sales going on for the same Kef R series, the Revel F208s, Polk R700s, and other brands. I haven't seen too much about the Paradigm Founders series since Shady J's review.

So you bought from the BB B&M store or their website? Inadequate packing definitely can be an issue, needs to be able to withstand what is now all-to-often poor handling by freight concerns (spent my career in logistics). Hoping for extra money to be spent by the vendor (and not you) on packing/logistics is mostly a pipe dream. In any case did the B&M BB store offer you an exchange pair from stock?

 

[Michi70]

So you bought from the BB B&M store or their website? Inadequate packing definitely can be an issue, needs to be able to withstand what is now all-to-often poor handling by freight concerns (spent my career in logistics). Hoping for extra money to be spent by the vendor (and not you) on packing/logistics is mostly a pipe dream. In any case did the B&M BB store offer you an exchange pair from stock?

I did purchase from the brick and mortar store, but BB did not carry the R11 inventory at their stores. They ship from their warehouse distribution center to customers or for pick up at the store. They were not able to guarantee that a similar occurrence would be prevented from happening with another pair. Your logistics comments are spot on.

Learned quite a few things in the meantime from the community here on the forums, the Internet community, and on You Tube.

I'm really surprised by the deal on the Revel F208s going on, like $3850 a pair over on Crutchfield for example.

 

[lovinthehd]

I did purchase from the brick and mortar store, but BB did not carry the R11 inventory at their stores. They ship from their warehouse distribution center to customers or for pick up at the store. They were not able to guarantee that a similar occurrence would be prevented from happening with another pair.

Doesn't say much for BB, does it? Likely the original packing was suitable for containerload shipping rather than individual box shipping.....and I'd have simply had the BB dealer be the intermediary in any case so that they would deal with logistics issues.

 

[Michi70]

Yeah, it doesn't say a whole lot. I have a friend who works there on the IT side of the company and told him about my experience and he just sighed in agreement.

 

[Michi70]

Thanks, Martin! Given the nice deal on the Revel F208s its either those or the Paradigm Founders 100.