Should You Use Cables as Tone Controls?

[highfigh]

I think looking at the system as a whole is key. Using a budget amplifier to drive luxury speakers will generate sound, no question, but is that a "good" system? There was a quote in one of the papers I linked to that was nearly identical to a quote from someone Gene interviewed re: the importance of the source you use watching video (I think they liked to download the 4K videos into a proprietary playback system vs streaming). The guest said emphatically, "your system is only as strong as its weakest link". Gene probably remembers which guest I am referring to, Anthony Grimani was the other guest in the interview. As for a budget product vs a luxury product what you pay vs what you get is where measurements can be useful. The thing they emphasized in one of the studies I posted is just how many measurements are NOT useful. It seems the author felt one of the BIG differences in SQ in any component or interlink was the noise measured needs to be low, the lower the better.

Here is a quote that directly addresses the topic of this thread:
Audiophiles sometimes view cables as “tone controls”, thinking that their effect on timbre is the result of fine changes in frequency response. This notion is wrong.*

*Source-pg 409, section 3.2-

http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur//papers/Audibility-of-cable-pathways--Kunchur.pdf

(also look at the table in fig 5, pg 408, the noise spectra in the cables compared.)

How does using cables as tone controls work for audiopiles when their mantra for more than 50 years has been "NO TONE CONTROLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' and "the perfect amplifier is defined as 'a straight wire with gain' "?

 

[Steve81]

Dude, I know you need a science teacher, go hire one

Put up or shut up.

Here are your options to avoid a ban from yours truly:
1. Let’s hear all your scientific knowledge, your blind testing process, etc.
2. Shut your yap, particularly your little snide remarks like this.

 

[witchdoctor]

Put up or shut up.

Here are your options to avoid a ban from yours truly:
1. Let’s hear all your scientific knowledge, your blind testing process, etc.
2. Shut your yap, particularly your little snide remarks like this.

My claim is cables don't make good tome controls.

Should You Use Cables as Tone Controls?

These clowns have now self identified and made my points more eloquently than I ever could! Oh they've been flying the audiophool flags since they joined....personally if I were a mod I'd probably just ban them but I'm just an asshole.

forums.audioholics.com

My proof was in the link I posted.

 

[Steve81]

My claim is cables don't make good tome controls.

Then perhaps you should leave it at that and stop trolling the thread with your crap.

 

[NINaudio]

My claim is cables don't make good tome controls.

Yet you claim and keep promoting that the differences between cables are "astonishing".

 

[fmw]

Should You Use Cables as Tone Controls?

Never. If you want tone controls you should use those with adjustments. A cable is a crazy way to do it.

 

[lovinthehd]

The Konchur thing apparently has riled up many of the 'phools out there and Amir has produced a new video to debunk...you know, sciency stuff.

 

[CajunLB]

How does using cables as tone controls work for audiopiles when their mantra for more than 50 years has been "NO TONE CONTROLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' and "the perfect amplifier is defined as 'a straight wire with gain' "?

They don’t believe in tone controls silly, that’s what cables are for.

 

[lovinthehd]

They don’t believe in tone controls silly, that’s what cables are for.

And think about certain of that group that still employ room eq and treatments....and all the changes that means with whatever cable you audibly approve of....did you test under all those possible conditions from various components/source materials? Sounds fatiguing to me....being and audiophool can be such hard work

 

[mtrycrafts]

The Konchur thing apparently has riled up many of the 'phools out there and Amir has produced a new video to debunk...you know, sciency stuff.

Super.
Who in the world at AES peer revied this paper before publishing it. Needs to be withdrawn.
This is what happens when a physicist thinks they undrstand audio .
Sure looks like Konchur is an audio nut and just wanted to prove something.

 

[lovinthehd]

Super.
Who in the world at AES peer revied this paper before publishing it. Needs to be withdrawn.
This is what happens when a physicist thinks they undrstand audio .
Sure looks like Konchur is an audio nut and just wanted to prove something.

Is it actually a peer reviewed paper this time? Pretty sure it was just a white paper originally, haven't bothered to spend more time on this generally as it's apparently either a deluded audiophile at work or a bored astrophysicist not getting things quite right? Dunno nor care particularly....

 

[highfigh]

My claim is cables don't make good tome controls.

Should You Use Cables as Tone Controls?

These clowns have now self identified and made my points more eloquently than I ever could! Oh they've been flying the audiophool flags since they joined....personally if I were a mod I'd probably just ban them but I'm just an asshole.

forums.audioholics.com

My proof was in the link I posted.

Apparently, you don't understand what we're telling you to do- you claim some of us need to hire a science teacher and when we, who have experience in audio and/or serious scientific education tell you to show your credentials WRT science, you post links form other people. We're still waiting.

The last link you posted isn't proof, it's commentary from someone else.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Is it actually a peer reviewed paper this time? Pretty sure it was just a white paper originally, haven't bothered to spend more time on this generally as it's apparently either a deluded audiophile at work or a bored astrophysicist not getting things quite right? Dunno nor care particularly....

This video must be for another one of his papers of some kind. The one at AES is a Journal article:
Cable pathways between audio components can affect perceived sound quality Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Volume 69 Issue 6 pp. 398-409, June 1st, 2021

ps. several comments at youtube does indicate it is a Journal paper, wonder how it got published and one response person submitted remarks to AES and was told to discuss it with the author on facetime or something.
So, I am still at a loss which paper Amir responded to. AES only has 1 journal paper by this author. None of Amir's graphs are in that paper.

 

[lovinthehd]

This video must be for another one of his papers of some kind. The one at AES is a Journal article:
Cable pathways between audio components can affect perceived sound quality Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Volume 69 Issue 6 pp. 398-409, June 1st, 2021

ps. several comments at youtube does indicate it is a Journal paper, wonder how it got published and one response person submitted remarks to AES and was told to discuss it with the author on facetime or something.
So, I am still at a loss which paper Amir responded to. AES only has 1 journal paper by this author. None of Amir's graphs are in that paper.

Amir linked this paper for the most recent video he did, not AES but rather IOSR Journal of Electronics and Communication Engineering

http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Interconnect-cable-measurements--Kunchur.pdf

 

[mtrycrafts]

Amir linked this paper for the most recent video he did, not AES but rather IOSR Journal of Electronics and Communication Engineering

http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Interconnect-cable-measurements--Kunchur.pdf

That makes more sense. Not an AES Journal paper as a couple commentors indicated at Youtube comments on Amir's latest video..
This paper is reference #49 on Kunchur's other wacky paper in JAES where an RCA cable is compared with XLR cable

This is what is on line for this International organization:
IOSR Journal of Electronics and Communication Engineering(IOSR-JECE) is a double blind peer reviewed International Journal that provides rapid publication (within a month) of articles in all areas of electronics and communication engineering and its applications. The journal welcomes publications of high quality papers on theoretical developments and practical applications in electronics and communication engineering. Original research papers, state-of-the-art reviews, and high quality technical notes are invited for publications.

Here is Kunchur's bio at the school:
Milind N. Kunchur - Department of Physics and Astronomy | University of South Carolina (sc.edu)

Audio is not his field.

 

[lovinthehd]

That makes more sense. Not an AES Journal paper as a couple commentors indicated at Youtube comments on Amir's latest video..
This paper is reference #49 on Kunchur's other wacky paper in JAES where an RCA cable is compared with XLR cable

This is what is on line for this International organization:
IOSR Journal of Electronics and Communication Engineering(IOSR-JECE) is a double blind peer reviewed International Journal that provides rapid publication (within a month) of articles in all areas of electronics and communication engineering and its applications. The journal welcomes publications of high quality papers on theoretical developments and practical applications in electronics and communication engineering. Original research papers, state-of-the-art reviews, and high quality technical notes are invited for publications.

Here is Kunchur's bio at the school:
Milind N. Kunchur - Department of Physics and Astronomy | University of South Carolina (sc.edu)

Audio is not his field.

Maybe he's like the doctor who bought Furutech stuff for the office medical gear....

 

[fmw]

When I conducted a bias controlled test of interconnect cables I tested 15 pairs and found one that messed with the sound. It was Japanese and quite expensive. I conclude that finding a cable that alters sound is vanishingly difficult. Most cables at every price level are competently made and transmit the audio accurately.

I once had some "high end" cables manufactured to sell as an experiment. They were thick copper cables made from an "oxygen free" Belden wire used by many high end manufacturers with high end connectors in a blue and white color scheme. I put them up for sale on Amazon with some text that spoke to the quality of the product. I even provided results of bias controlled listening test comparing it to a well known high end cable showing random results. The price was $19.95 per pair. I only sold three pair on Amazon. I gave some away to friends and use some myself. People who look for exotic cables don't want them to be affordable. I can't conclude anything else.

 

[highfigh]

When I conducted a bias controlled test of interconnect cables I tested 15 pairs and found one that messed with the sound. It was Japanese and quite expensive. I conclude that finding a cable that alters sound is vanishingly difficult. Most cables at every price level are competently made and transmit the audio accurately.

I once had some "high end" cables manufactured to sell as an experiment. They were thick copper cables made from an "oxygen free" Belden wire used by many high end manufacturers with high end connectors in a blue and white color scheme. I put them up for sale on Amazon with some text that spoke to the quality of the product. I even provided results of bias controlled listening test comparing it to a well known high end cable showing random results. The price was $19.95 per pair. I only sold three pair on Amazon. I gave some away to friends and use some myself. People who look for exotic cables don't want them to be affordable. I can't conclude anything else.

I have discussed this phenomenon with a sales rep who has an expensive system, but has absolutely no idea why he has done things wrong WRT speaker placement, acoustics, using cable stands, etc. When I make "There's a lot of BS going on here", he just says "It's experiential' and goes on with his bad self, thinking it's all real. He also said "If it's not high priced, it's seen as 'no good' by audiopiles and they really need to lose this idea.

 

[Speedskater]

For some audiophiles, a little bit of added background noise can add brightness or sparkle.

John Atkinson
August 2005
Background Noise
I think that what the listener perceives with this cable is that at low levels, the sound is fattened and made more coherent-sounding by the dominant second-harmonic distortion. In addition, the presence of background noise cannot be dismissed, as there is some evidence that introducing small amounts of random noise results in a sound that is preferred by listeners. At higher signal levels, transients are accompanied by bursts of higher harmonics. However, these subside as quickly as they appeared. The overall effect is to render the system sound as being more vivid,

So maybe cables that pickup noise or interference might sound different.

 

[highfigh]

For some audiophiles, a little bit of added background noise can add brightness or sparkle.

John Atkinson
August 2005
Background Noise
I think that what the listener perceives with this cable is that at low levels, the sound is fattened and made more coherent-sounding by the dominant second-harmonic distortion. In addition, the presence of background noise cannot be dismissed, as there is some evidence that introducing small amounts of random noise results in a sound that is preferred by listeners. At higher signal levels, transients are accompanied by bursts of higher harmonics. However, these subside as quickly as they appeared. The overall effect is to render the system sound as being more vivid,

So maybe cables that pickup noise or interference might sound different.

Blah, blah, blah. So, distortion is a good thing, now?

By writing "fattened and made more coherent-sounding by the dominant second-harmonic distortion.", he made a case for using tubes.