Should You Use Cables as Tone Controls?

[lovinthehd]

These clowns have now self identified and made my points more eloquently than I ever could!

Oh they've been flying the audiophool flags since they joined....personally if I were a mod I'd probably just ban them but I'm just an asshole.

 

[witchdoctor]

Oh they've been flying the audiophool flags since they joined....personally if I were a mod I'd probably just ban them but I'm just an asshole.

This is an HEA, if you need help setting one up start a build thread, NP. Everyone has to start somewhere:

The uppermost strata in stereo-system fidelity are sometimes referred to as “high-end audio” (which I will abbreviate as HEA). A digital HEA system typically consists of the following separate components interlinked together by cables: (1) A source such as a CD (compact disk) player or separate transport/server and DAC (digital-to-analog converter), (2) an amplifier, and (3) speakers (loudspeakers) optimally placed in a suitable listening room
Furthermore, HEA systems require meticulous setup and attention to detail (e.g., precise speaker positioning for best acoustic coupling with the room, use of spikes to prevent speaker recoil, etc.).

VERY IMPORTANT
An audio system is a chain whose strength is limited by its weakest link: every component and interconnection must have sufficient fidelity for any component to make a difference.

 

[lovinthehd]

This is an HEA, if you need help setting one up start a build thread, NP. Everyone has to start somewhere:

The uppermost strata in stereo-system fidelity are sometimes referred to as “high-end audio” (which I will abbreviate as HEA). A digital HEA system typically consists of the following separate components interlinked together by cables: (1) A source such as a CD (compact disk) player or separate transport/server and DAC (digital-to-analog converter), (2) an amplifier, and (3) speakers (loudspeakers) optimally placed in a suitable listening room
Furthermore, HEA systems require meticulous setup and attention to detail (e.g., precise speaker positioning for best acoustic coupling with the room, use of spikes to prevent speaker recoil, etc.).

VERY IMPORTANT
An audio system is a chain whose strength is limited by its weakest link: every component and interconnection must have sufficient fidelity for any component to make a difference.

LOL HEA meaning "high end audio"....what a silly useless term that is. You can be amusing, but not particularly knowledgeable....what a waste.

 

[witchdoctor]

These clowns have now self identified and made my points more eloquently than I ever could!

I realize that the white papers I posted are a bit deep but this site is supposed to be about science, not your lame stories about dropping tickets to the help desk at the BBC and now juvenile name calling.
I really don't think you should be a member here, we have already established you failed basic economics in another thread, you obviously failed science looking at the posts in this thread and as for comedy.... no.
I gotta put the block on you now, bye.

 

[BMXTRIX]

...THINGS change. The earth use to be flat....

At what point was the earth flat?

The problem with all of this debate it how absolutely ridiculous it is.

There are different homes, in different locations, that may not be able to deliver a clean signal between components due to interference of some sort.

There are cables that deliberately impact the audio coming out of a transport or preamp and some people think that is a good thing.

Is it good? That's nothing more than opinion to say yes or no. If you like interference in your audio, does that mean I'm right to tell you that it is wrong?

The main basis for most statements on THIS website are that measurements should be as close to accurate as the original input under specific setup conditions. The tests are repeatable and measurements are made to be consistent. It has absolutely ZERO to do with how a person will or won't like that particular component.

Cables though are one of the most ridiculous arguments that anyone can make because they SHOULD be sonically neutral in a system. It has been shown in hundreds if not thousands of tests from various websites how they mostly are. How a well built cable is a well built cable is a well built cable and spending more, or less, makes zero difference in the sound coming out. It is when the sound is different that something is going on and that is when it gets interesting, and often quite disgusting.

Just to be clear, the earth was never flat. For thousands of years it has been proven to be round, but for all eternity it HAS been round.

This is important, because calling the earth flat to some, is just an opinion. But, it is factually wrong.
To say a speaker measurement is an 'opinion', is also factually wrong. To say a cable measurement is an opinion is also factually wrong.

This is getting very philosophical, but the bottom line for some is the inability to distinguish factual measurement reviews from opinion-based reviews. There are those who can hear differences and are young enough and trained enough to do so. But, that doesn't mean that they don't have bias or are capable of leaving bias at the door, or that if they were tested against their own bias, that they wouldn't end up sounding like fools... still claiming the earth is flat.

 

[witchdoctor]

At what point was the earth flat?

The problem with all of this debate it how absolutely ridiculous it is.

There are different homes, in different locations, that may not be able to deliver a clean signal between components due to interference of some sort.

There are cables that deliberately impact the audio coming out of a transport or preamp and some people think that is a good thing.

Is it good? That's nothing more than opinion to say yes or no. If you like interference in your audio, does that mean I'm right to tell you that it is wrong?

The main basis for most statements on THIS website are that measurements should be as close to accurate as the original input under specific setup conditions. The tests are repeatable and measurements are made to be consistent. It has absolutely ZERO to do with how a person will or won't like that particular component.

Cables though are one of the most ridiculous arguments that anyone can make because they SHOULD be sonically neutral in a system. It has been shown in hundreds if not thousands of tests from various websites how they mostly are. How a well built cable is a well built cable is a well built cable and spending more, or less, makes zero difference in the sound coming out. It is when the sound is different that something is going on and that is when it gets interesting, and often quite disgusting.

Just to be clear, the earth was never flat. For thousands of years it has been proven to be round, but for all eternity it HAS been round.

This is important, because calling the earth flat to some, is just an opinion. But, it is factually wrong.
To say a speaker measurement is an 'opinion', is also factually wrong. To say a cable measurement is an opinion is also factually wrong.

This is getting very philosophical, but the bottom line for some is the inability to distinguish factual measurement reviews from opinion-based reviews. There are those who can hear differences and are young enough and trained enough to do so. But, that doesn't mean that they don't have bias or are capable of leaving bias at the door, or that if they were tested against their own bias, that they wouldn't end up sounding like fools... still claiming the earth is flat.

I agree that the "argument" is ridiculous if you focus on any one component instead of the entire system. You bring up things like "testing", "well built", "neutral" but that needs to expand to the entire system, not just one component or interconnection. So, can you please post a link to one of the hundreds if not thousands of tests? Please don't post links from audio dealers, advertised subsidized sources, manufacturers, etc. I think reviews from customers who actually BOUGHT a product are a good thing if you have a lot of them it shows at least there is some subjective value. Obviously peer reviewed sources like AES, etc. are good.

 

[highfigh]

FYI- Andrew Robinson-
Conclusion
It seems if you want quality speaker stands these days be prepared to
spend between $300 and $500 for a stand that will elevate your
bookshelf speakers anywhere between 18 and 24 inches off the ground.
Mapleshade and their Maple Bedrock speaker stands take a slightly
different approach, while costing roughly the same as the competition;
the Bedrocks won't elevate your bookshelf speakers physically but by
not doing so they will elevate them sonically. Don't believe me; try
them yourself for they come with a 30-day money back guarantee. They
might just surprise you... they sure surprised me.

Why should price enter the discussion? Is it because Andrew Robinson doesn't know how to build anything? Is it because he was convinced by Mapleshade that Maple is the best wood specie and that Brass is the best metal for this? Both claims would be wrong, as anything with the same density and made to the same physical dimensions would perform the same. I would bet that setting the same speakers on bags filled with lead shot would be at least as good.

 

[witchdoctor]

Why should price enter the discussion? Is it because Andrew Robinson doesn't know how to build anything? Is it because he was convinced by Mapleshade that Maple is the best wood specie and that Brass is the best metal for this? Both claims would be wrong, as anything with the same density and made to the same physical dimensions would perform the same. I wold bet that setting the same speakers on bags filled with lead shot would be at least as good.

highfigh, I don't think you need to disagree with the ending conclusion. I DID give them a risk free 30 day trial as the author stated, I WAS pleasantly surprised and I kept them, YMMV, peace, out.

 

[highfigh]

Gene, here is a link to Dr. Kunchurs home page, it looks like he has presented at over 100 conferences, his contact info is on the page:

Homepage of Kunchur's Research Group

This paper would be a good topic of discussion:

http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur//papers/Audibility-of-cable-pathways--Kunchur.pdf

"The arena of highest fidelity in music reproduction, sometimes referred to as high-end audio, has many controversial claims and contentious issues. One such controversy is whether the cables and topology used to interlink components together make an audible difference. There seems to be a disparity between anecdotal experiences reported by audiophiles and published formal scientific research, as to what are the minimal changes in system configuration that can be audibly distinguished. With the motivation of bridging this divide—which may originate from differences in instrumentation and subject-listening conditions used by the two groups—this work utilized a high-performance audio system and an extended-duration listening protocol that more closely resembles audiophile auditioning conditions. With these measures, the present work was able to prove through direct psychoacoustic testing that two different analog-interconnect pathways can be audibly distinguished."

The issue isn't whether cables can make a difference, it's about whether they make the differences claimed by so many and especially, in the marketing of those products.

 

[highfigh]

You're the one posting, put into your own words what you think that means. I've already gone thru the Konchur thing, it's simply not meaningful.

The author explained what HEA stands for, but should have used caps in the text, to make the association more clear, IMO.

 

[witchdoctor]

The issue isn't whether cables can make a difference, it's about whether they make the differences claimed by so many and especially, in the marketing of those products.

This is a good point of discussion I agree.

 

[highfigh]

Just to be clear, the earth was never flat. For thousands of years it has been proven to be round, but for all eternity it HAS been round.

This is important, because calling the earth flat to some, is just an opinion. But, it is factually wrong.
To say a speaker measurement is an 'opinion', is also factually wrong. To say a cable measurement is an opinion is also factually wrong.

This is getting very philosophical, but the bottom line for some is the inability to distinguish factual measurement reviews from opinion-based reviews. There are those who can hear differences and are young enough and trained enough to do so. But, that doesn't mean that they don't have bias or are capable of leaving bias at the door, or that if they were tested against their own bias, that they wouldn't end up sounding like fools... still claiming the earth is flat.

"All eternity'? It would be somewhat less than 14.5 billion years and even then, it was a lot of clouds of matter than hadn't yet come together, so....

If measured between two points that are incredibly close together, it could be considered 'flat', I guess.

 

[NINaudio]

HEA= Read the intro:

http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur//papers/Audibility-of-cable-pathways--Kunchur.pdf

Gene has already said that this paper was flawed and posted a link to a discussion of the flaws, but that's not good enough for the witch.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I agree that the "argument" is ridiculous if you focus on any one component instead of the entire system.

There is no doubt that every part of an entire system matters. Including the listener and the room they are in.

You bring up things like "testing", "well built", "neutral" but that needs to expand to the entire system, not just one component or interconnection.

In fairness, for analytical testing, only one part matters. For an entire system, then every part matters. You can test any single part up to a point, but once personal preference gets involved, then hardly anything else matters.

So, can you please post a link to one of the hundreds if not thousands of tests? Please don't post links from audio dealers, advertised subsidized sources, manufacturers, etc.

These tests are out there in various forms. Manufacturer's numbers (specifications of impedance, etc.) is valid as well from most reputable manufacturers. The tests are kind of all over, but more difficult to track down than they should as I don't think exotic manufacturers really want their measurements out there.

I think reviews from customers who actually BOUGHT a product are a good thing if you have a lot of them it shows at least there is some subjective value. Obviously peer reviewed sources like AES, etc. are good.

Yes, reviews from customers are good, up to a point. Most people have a bit of confirmation bias. They believe the money they spent was worthwhile and like to speak like it is truly the case, even when it isn't. Others like to complain about issues that have nothing to do with the product itself.

For examples of this, look at Blu-ray Player reviews on Amazon and see how many reviews are of the video image quality. The responsiveness of the GUI to start and stop playback and such... vs. streaming. Same with TVs.

Considering the focus of this topic is singularly on the cables used, I will go with the concept that the single cable in use should deliver similar results prior to the cable being in place to after it is in place. It won't be exact, by audibly it should be the same. This ignores ALL the other factors which can impact audio quality.

If a cable goes out of its way to impact the audio in the room, while that's still personal choice, it's also a 1% case of a 1% case of a 1% case scenario. Far more cables strive to just deliver high quality audio without impacting that audio at all.

 

[BMXTRIX]

"All eternity'? It would be somewhat less than 14.5 billion years and even then, it was a lot of clouds of matter than hadn't yet come together, so....

If measured between two points that are incredibly close together, it could be considered 'flat', I guess.

Hey now... The earth has had some level of all eternity. A point after formation? But, duh. Let's not be pedantic on this concept. Kind of like if you stand in a valley, you might just assume you live inside some shape because the world lifts up around you! Reality is what it is, let's not overcomplicate that concept.

 

[witchdoctor]

There is no doubt that every part of an entire system matters. Including the listener and the room they are in.


In fairness, for analytical testing, only one part matters. For an entire system, then every part matters. You can test any single part up to a point, but once personal preference gets involved, then hardly anything else matters.


These tests are out there in various forms. Manufacturer's numbers (specifications of impedance, etc.) is valid as well from most reputable manufacturers. The tests are kind of all over, but more difficult to track down than they should as I don't think exotic manufacturers really want their measurements out there.


Yes, reviews from customers are good, up to a point. Most people have a bit of confirmation bias. They believe the money they spent was worthwhile and like to speak like it is truly the case, even when it isn't. Others like to complain about issues that have nothing to do with the product itself.

For examples of this, look at Blu-ray Player reviews on Amazon and see how many reviews are of the video image quality. The responsiveness of the GUI to start and stop playback and such... vs. streaming. Same with TVs.

Considering the focus of this topic is singularly on the cables used, I will go with the concept that the single cable in use should deliver similar results prior to the cable being in place to after it is in place. It won't be exact, by audibly it should be the same. This ignores ALL the other factors which can impact audio quality.

If a cable goes out of its way to impact the audio in the room, while that's still personal choice, it's also a 1% case of a 1% case of a 1% case scenario. Far more cables strive to just deliver high quality audio without impacting that audio at all.

I think looking at the system as a whole is key. Using a budget amplifier to drive luxury speakers will generate sound, no question, but is that a "good" system? There was a quote in one of the papers I linked to that was nearly identical to a quote from someone Gene interviewed re: the importance of the source you use watching video (I think they liked to download the 4K videos into a proprietary playback system vs streaming). The guest said emphatically, "your system is only as strong as its weakest link". Gene probably remembers which guest I am referring to, Anthony Grimani was the other guest in the interview. As for a budget product vs a luxury product what you pay vs what you get is where measurements can be useful. The thing they emphasized in one of the studies I posted is just how many measurements are NOT useful. It seems the author felt one of the BIG differences in SQ in any component or interlink was the noise measured needs to be low, the lower the better.

Here is a quote that directly addresses the topic of this thread:
Audiophiles sometimes view cables as “tone controls”, thinking that their effect on timbre is the result of fine changes in frequency response. This notion is wrong.*

*Source-pg 409, section 3.2-

http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur//papers/Audibility-of-cable-pathways--Kunchur.pdf

(also look at the table in fig 5, pg 408, the noise spectra in the cables compared.)

 

[mtrycrafts]

"All eternity'? It would be somewhat less than 14.5 billion years and even then, it was a lot of clouds of matter than hadn't yet come together, so....

If measured between two points that are incredibly close together, it could be considered 'flat', I guess.

My 8 ft level is flat. The two points at either end is not very close and I call it flat So is my kitchen floor even longer.

 

[witchdoctor]

Re: "measurements":
However, the electrical measurements conducted here indicate that noise levels may be one determining factor of sonic performance. The measurements also show that characteristics such as resistance and frequency response, that naïve consumers may focus on, are irrelevant for distinguishing HEA interconnect cables.

 

[TLS Guy]

Re: "measurements":
However, the electrical measurements conducted here indicate that noise levels may be one determining factor of sonic performance. The measurements also show that characteristics such as resistance and frequency response, that naïve consumers may focus on, are irrelevant for distinguishing HEA interconnect cables.

Only someone in a psychotic crisis could claim that. I don't know if you are just pulling the leg and tugging hard, or have truly lost touch with reality.
I know one thing, you are one Hell of a bore and a massive nuisance. It is about time you found another site to harass members on, or find some fellow individuals who share your delusions. One way or another you will soon be gone from this site, and the sooner the better.

 

[TLS Guy]

You failed science, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

OK, then you explain to me the atomic differences in the atomic structures, of conductors and insulators. Also explain their relationship to the periodic table of elements.
Then explain to me how the electron flow can be affected as to which way they traverse down a conductor. I want you to explain that at the atomic level please.