AVR for 2.1 HiFi?

[PENG]

Hello,

I built my speakers, based on Troels' Gravesen Design: HERE

Roughly, what it would look like. Note that I cannot push them wider because I just don't want to. I have already bookshelves and children toys taking 90% of my walls
View attachment 57871 View attachment 57872


I get the message. For sure, when I have the AVR I'll listen it without all the separates. If it's enough, then perfect! Every € that can be saved is welcomed

One thing I would like to add, separates are sure more exiting, fun and ownership pride could also be a factor. Having said that, I now have so many preamps, power amps, dacs, CD/BR/universal players, and even a minidsp spreading out everywhere in the house, and don't have the time/energy to play with them. Can't imagine as I get even older, what to do with those "separates". My older brother went through the same deal and he eventually gave away everything and settled on a sound bar. I know this is not the case for you if you only have one or two systems, but for others, it is something to consider..

 

[_Alex_]

One thing I would like to add, separates are sure more exiting, fun and ownership pride could also be a factor. Having said that, I now have so many preamps, power amps, dacs, CD/BR/universal players, and even a minidsp spreading out everywhere in the house, and don't have the time/energy to play with them. Can't imagine as I get even older, what to do with those "separates". My older brother went through the same deal and he eventually gave away everything and settled on a sound bar. I know this is not the case for you if you only have one or two systems, but for others, it is something to consider..

You are 100% right. I went down the rabbit hole for other hobbits and don't want to go back.
And, to be honest, I don't want to spend my days/money going back and forth with piles of components and different settings. The idea around this project is to have an easy to use system for me, my wife and my kids. I want everybody to be able to take the remote and enjoy music (we listen to music all day long) and movies (few times a month).
The reason I am struggling and, therfore, asking for help, is that I am used to a certain sound quality (not high end though) that I don't want to lose.

 

[Eppie]

The one last thing I would ask is whether LFE content from movies can be fed to the main channels? If you set the subwoofer to "no" in the speaker setup, what happens to LFE content? While one could use a splitter on the main pre-outs to get a full range signal to an external DSP for both mains and a sub, would this eliminate the LFE content that is typically fed to the subwoofer out only? That's why I suggested going full range on the main pre-outs, setting the sub to LFE+Main and using a high crossover point on the AVR. The op did say this was for both music and movies.

 

[_Alex_]

The one last thing I would ask is whether LFE content from movies can be fed to the main channels? If you set the subwoofer to "no" in the speaker setup, what happens to LFE content? While one could use a splitter on the main pre-outs to get a full range signal to an external DSP for both mains and a sub, would this eliminate the LFE content that is typically fed to the subwoofer out only? That's why I suggested going full range on the main pre-outs, setting the sub to LFE+Main and using a high crossover point on the AVR. The op did say this was for both music and movies.

I read and read manuals and I think your solution is the best.
Mains : "Large"
Sw: Yes -> "LFE + Main" with XO the highest possible.

Y splitter would remove all LFE content.

That way, and if I understood well, I could use the sub preout for music and movies.

Apparently it is even possible on devices such as Marantz NR1608 (old but cheap, slim, can read 4K movies)

 

[-Jim-]

Gentlemen, "Overall system sensitivity is around 89-90 dB/2.8 volts and impedance stay above 4 ohms" according to the spec page @_Alex_ provided a link to. So using the SPL Calculator for those speakers, and with a typical AVR output of 75 watts (or above) will be "uncomfortably loud" or above. So going to a good AVR should not be a compromise in any form.

Like @PENG I too have a Denon AVR-X4400H (and a few others on various systems - see signature below) and it's in our Atmos system in the Games Room. You wouldn't require something of it's capability for this application but it does have great features which you may use down the line. I'd probably go towards a newer model that allow network control but that's just me.

My first pass at a system setup would be to get the AVR and see how the system sounds with it. Then (and I'm pretty sure a Sub would be required) I'd buy a Sub with an integrated Amp - possibly with some DSP built it to keep it simple (KISS Principle rules! ). (SVS?) Position the Sub (Sub Crawl?) Then set the L&R speakers to small with the Sub and tweak it to suit. A lot of folks tend to over empathize low Bass when the first get a Sub but Alex will no doubt try many tweaks before arriving at long term settings.

A system such as this would be simple to operate, and if HDMI connections were used correctly, almost a 1 button startup for most input devices.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[PENG]

I read and read manuals and I think your solution is the best.
Mains : "Large"
Sw: Yes -> "LFE + Main" with XO the highest possible.

Y splitter would remove all LFE content.

As mentioned, if LFE+Main suits you need, then fine, but it is not true that using Y splitter to feed the sub via the RCA or XLR inputs would remove all LFE content.

You will have the LFE content downmixed to the Front mains by default if you set the Front mains to "Large" and subwoofer to "No", or "None".

Subwoofer manufacturer uses this trick for Sub/Sat users. Below is from Polk Audio's owner's manual for subwoofers that have the line level (typically RCAs) and speaker level inputs. If I remember right, SVS subwoofers also have similar instructions.

R E C E I V E R S E T- U P / B A S S M A N A G E M E N T
All surround receivers allow you to “customize” their performance depending on the size of your speakers. Refer to the owner's manual of your
receiver or surround processor to learn how this is done. To get the best performance from small “satellite/subwoofer” type systems, use the
following settings with the above hook-up method:
Front speakers -- set to “large”
Center speaker -- set to “normal” or “small”
Surround speakers -- set to “small”
Subwoofer -- set to “OFF” or “none.” (We know. Doesn’t make sense, right? Your system obviously has a subwoofer. But really truly, this is the
correct setting for the recommended hook-up method. By setting the front left and right speakers to “Large” and routing them through the subwoofer
as instructed above, you deliver a full range signal to the subwoofer’s low pass filter. The low pass filter takes the low frequencies and
passes the rest on to the front speakers, for perfect sub/sat blending.)

 

[_Alex_]

As mentioned, if LFE+Main suits you need, then fine, but it is not true that using Y splitter to feed the sub via the RCA or XLR inputs would remove all LFE content.

I didn't see it that way, but I have to admit you are right!

 

[_Alex_]

Gentlemen, "Overall system sensitivity is around 89-90 dB/2.8 volts and impedance stay above 4 ohms" according to the spec page @_Alex_ provided a link to. So using the SPL Calculator for those speakers, and with a typical AVR output of 75 watts (or above) will be "uncomfortably loud" or above. So going to a good AVR should not be a compromise in any form.

Like @PENG I too have a Denon AVR-X4400H (and a few others on various systems - see signature below) and it's in our Atmos system in the Games Room. You wouldn't require something of it's capability for this application but it does have great features which you may use down the line. I'd probably go towards a newer model that allow network control but that's just me.

My first pass at a system setup would be to get the AVR and see how the system sounds with it. Then (and I'm pretty sure a Sub would be required) I'd buy a Sub with an integrated Amp - possibly with some DSP built it to keep it simple (KISS Principle rules! ). (SVS?) Position the Sub (Sub Crawl?) Then set the L&R speakers to small with the Sub and tweak it to suit. A lot of folks tend to over empathize low Bass when the first get a Sub but Alex will no doubt try many tweaks before arriving at long term settings.

A system such as this would be simple to operate, and if HDMI connections were used correctly, almost a 1 button startup for most input devices.

I hope this is helpful.

Many thanks!
I will try to find informations about THD, noise, relationship between distorsion and frequency, etc... about these amps.

Concerning the subwoofer, as good integration is mandatory, I'll follow the DIY way. I just love to make my speakers!

 

[lovinthehd]

Many thanks!
I will try to find informations about THD, noise, relationship between distorsion and frequency, etc... about these amps.

Concerning the subwoofer, as good integration is mandatory, I'll follow the DIY way. I just love to make my speakers!

What sub are you building?

 

[_Alex_]

What sub are you building?

I dont know yet, but something that could play down to 30Hz or below with ease would be cool. I have 120-150L

 

[Verdinut]

Many thanks!
I will try to find informations about THD, noise, relationship between distorsion and frequency, etc... about these amps.

Concerning the subwoofer, as good integration is mandatory, I'll follow the DIY way. I just love to make my speakers!

Since you are interested in building your own subwoofer, I would strongly suggest either the Dayton RSS315HF-4 or the new RSS315HE-22 as the driver.

In my HT system, I am using the Dayton RSS390HF-4 in each of the three front speaker cabinets. I also built a pair of 3-way speakers using the RSS315-8 drivers which I sold.

My 7 Channel System

SYSTEM: MARANTZ SR5010, 3 QSC DCA 1222 AMPS. DRIVING THE FRONT CHANNELS IN ACTIVE BI-AMP CONFIG. QSC DCA 1824 (4 CH. AMP.) FOR SURROUND CHANNELS OPPO BDP-95, REVOX B77, TEAC AN-80 (NR), AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-LP1240, SHURE M97XE, HITACHI HCA-8300, PANASONIC TH-50PZ80U, FURMAN PS-8R, APC H15 FRONT...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[_Alex_]

Since you are interested in building your own subwoofer, I would strongly suggest either the Dayton RSS315HF-4 or the new RSS315HE-22 as the driver.

In my HT system, I am using the Dayton RSS390HF-4 in each of the three front speaker cabinets. I also built a pair of 3-way speakers using the RSS315-8 drivers which I sold.

My 7 Channel System

SYSTEM: MARANTZ SR5010, 3 QSC DCA 1222 AMPS. DRIVING THE FRONT CHANNELS IN ACTIVE BI-AMP CONFIG. QSC DCA 1824 (4 CH. AMP.) FOR SURROUND CHANNELS OPPO BDP-95, REVOX B77, TEAC AN-80 (NR), AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-LP1240, SHURE M97XE, HITACHI HCA-8300, PANASONIC TH-50PZ80U, FURMAN PS-8R, APC H15 FRONT...

forums.audioholics.com

Believe it or not, the Dayton RSS315HF-4 (in fact 8 ohm version because behringer A800 apparently don't work @ 4 ohms bridged) is 1st on my list
It goes beyond this topic, but I'm very interested in how you designed the cabinet/vent port of the 315s and the 390 and your experience on what went well/bad with those designs.
On Winisd, I get good results on BR designs, but the vent always looks like organ pipe ...

 

[Verdinut]

Believe it or not, the Dayton RSS315HF-4 (in fact 8 ohm version because behringer A800 apparently don't work @ 4 ohms bridged) is 1st on my list
It goes beyond this topic, but I'm very interested in how you designed the cabinet/vent port of the 315s and the 390 and your experience on what went well/bad with those designs.
On Winisd, I get good results on BR designs, but the vent always looks like organ pipe ...

For the venting of cabinets, I used ABS sewer pipe, two 3 inch pipes with an elbow for the RSS315 driver. For the RSS390 drivers, I used a pair of 4 inch pipes with the use of 2 elbows for each pipe. The results are very satisfactory with a F3 at 25 Hz for the 12 inch subs and a F3 at 21 Hz for the 15 inch 390s. According to the BasssBox 6 Pro software which I use, their response is very smooth down to their LF limit.

 

[lovinthehd]

I dont know yet, but something that could play down to 30Hz or below with ease would be cool. I have 120-150L

With a box that size and the right driver you should be able to do 20hz easily enough....

 

[MrBoat]

AVR is just too easy for 2.1 just for the bass management alone. I meant to upgrade from this old Denon but in spite of it being nearly 20 years old, I keep forgetting to listen for faults. Lack of some modern connectivity options but since I don't watch movies, I forget about that as well. I'd still be solidly in 2-channel if the sub out option didn't haunt me for just being there unused, otherwise. That and a decade long stint with 2.1 desktop systems that managed to somehow always perform beyond their price point made me aware of the possibilities when scaling it up some.

I am always where the pc is when not outdoors. Made sense to build a high performance near field 2.1 system around that, instead of a whole room system. My video games are thru it as well. The AVR made it easy to do. I have an inuke 3000 dsp amp for the subs. All it's features are accessible thru the pc as well. Nice to be able to tune on the fly from the MLP.

I have from class A-D amps and I am fond of them all in some way or another. But this old AVR will drive 2 ohm loads if called upon to do so, and for my use, just seems so ridiculously stable and reliable to the point of being overkill. Why haven't I upgraded? Because I have been able to plug everything into it. When I see a speaker design being scrutinized for being "hard to drive," I never have to be concerned with such things. This AVR was given to me, still in it's original box. Found another just as perfect for $75 local so got that one as well. I spent the most on DIY speakers and subs instead, which still wasn't a lot.

 

[_Alex_]

AVR is just too easy for 2.1 just for the bass management alone. I meant to upgrade from this old Denon but in spite of it being nearly 20 years old, I keep forgetting to listen for faults. Lack of some modern connectivity options but since I don't watch movies, I forget about that as well. I'd still be solidly in 2-channel if the sub out option didn't haunt me for just being there unused, otherwise. That and a decade long stint with 2.1 desktop systems that managed to somehow always perform beyond their price point made me aware of the possibilities when scaling it up some.

I am always where the pc is when not outdoors. Made sense to build a high performance near field 2.1 system around that, instead of a whole room system. My video games are thru it as well. The AVR made it easy to do. I have an inuke 3000 dsp amp for the subs. All it's features are accessible thru the pc as well. Nice to be able to tune on the fly from the MLP.

I have from class A-D amps and I am fond of them all in some way or another. But this old AVR will drive 2 ohm loads if called upon to do so, and for my use, just seems so ridiculously stable and reliable to the point of being overkill. Why haven't I upgraded? Because I have been able to plug everything into it. When I see a speaker design being scrutinized for being "hard to drive," I never have to be concerned with such things. This AVR was given to me, still in it's original box. Found another just as perfect for $75 local so got that one as well. I spent the most on DIY speakers and subs instead, which still wasn't a lot.

As you say, it seems more than OK for nearfield speakers!

 

[MrBoat]

As you say, it seems more than OK for nearfield speakers!

It's been great for everything. Checks all the boxes.

 

[_Alex_]

Hey guys,
After a while I come with some news.
I purchased a NR1403 that fit my needs. I can now :
- play music: signal comes from my chromecast audio through the amplifier unaltered (direct mode) to my power amps.
- watch movies in stereo mode with the signal downmixed to 2.0

I am now going to buy a RSS315HF-8 and put it in a 60L closed cabinet.

Final step will be the addition of a minidsp 2x4HD to handle the XO of the speakers + DSP + linkwitz transform to the subwoofer.

I'll give news. And pictures when everything is done.

Again, many thanks for your help !!

 

[everettT]

Hey guys,
After a while I come with some news.
I purchased a NR1403 that fit my needs. I can now :
- play music: signal comes from my chromecast audio through the amplifier unaltered (direct mode) to my power amps.
- watch movies in stereo mode with the signal downmixed to 2.0

I am now going to buy a RSS315HF-8 and put it in a 60L closed cabinet.

Final step will be the addition of a minidsp 2x4HD to handle the XO of the speakers + DSP + linkwitz transform to the subwoofer.

I'll give news. And pictures when everything is done.

Again, many thanks for your help !!

Why not just a ported box and no transform? The driver has a low Fs and wouldn't require as much power to achieve similar results unless I'm missing something. That's a nice driver for the money, good luck with your project.

 

[_Alex_]

Why not just a ported box and no transform? The driver has a low Fs and wouldn't require as much power to achieve similar results unless I'm missing something. That's a nice driver for the money, good luck with your project.

Mainly because of port tuning.
WinISD simulation gives huge port length that just couldn't fit in the box, unless I am also missing something
My plan changed a little bit as I now have to fit the sub in a volume of 40x40x60cm (16x16x24inch) maximum.
The idea there is to build a closed box of around 60L (2,1 cubic feet), test with/without transform because the sub can technically work in both configuration in this volume. As my room is far from being perfect, I'll see if there are not too many modal resonances.

Again, any remark or idea is welcomed