Audiophile Cable Synergy: Real or Snake Oil?

[lovinthehd]

I think this is getting close with these two.

This forum isn't particularly about the subjective personal experience thing, though. If you can actually prove something is audible, that's different, but if it's only in your head as it seems to be, not very interesting at all.

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What is a fact, is that your ideas and comments are your own. This site is providing information as it is updated. No one is living in a 50 year old vacuum.
If 75% believe one way and the rest believe another, that is what it is. It's still NONE of your business who thinks what. There is the fact. No one is
calling your comments "if it's only in your head as it seems to be, not very interesting at all." anything but your own. I find wichdoctors comments refreshing.
I find your repetitive and condescending.

As for proof, who exactly am I proving it to? Because the next question is, "do I APPROVE of the sound". It still boils down to "Listening" to the finished assembled
system. If I don't like the SQ who cares what it's suppose to sound like or measure. I screwed up. I don't like it.

I keep reading people quote "a more resolving system". The reason is pretty simple. That is what you need to hear differences in cables.
I'm pretty sure once most people fiddle with a picky valve amp, preamp, phono preamp and sensitive speakers, you WILL pay attention to cabling.
If your ears are real bad that sure doesn't help either.

I haven't heard every HT or AV based system BUT none of the cabling ruined the sound from the ones I've listened to. They had great HT and the stereo side
was good enough for the parties we were at. They were happy, so was I. I say pay for what you like with HT setups.

The Room, Speakers and Amps in order of SQ. Quality cables, may be low on the list, but they put the icing on the cake, when it's all said and done.
Routing cables included.

There are a few top of the line HT systems that good cable is going to make a difference in the end, between better and best.. Some choose better,
some choose "The Best". I'm saying you can have either for close to same price. Why be the Zip Cord King or worse yet call others names because
they choose better cables?

The names I seen in the name of cables. I love the crap talking about "Counterfeit Cables". I've been using cables from China, Russia, and any other
new or surplus source including our own US military for 30 plus years. Counterfeit Cables? Like someone actually has a patent on a cable design.
I'd really doubt it. Who's name is on the cable, I suppose that's an issue. "Son of Odin" then. Copyright? AliExpress is just fine.

There are 20K cables just like there are 20K DACs, only if YOU pay for them, not me.

I guess I won't mention the old Rolls-Royce or Duesenberg parked in the neighbors barn. They're just another car right?
Just like all cables are the same.

From ONE of these two.

Time to feed my chickens.

LOL you are funny.

 

[NINaudio]

Oh man, now we've got two magic cable loving trolls in here giving each other pats on the back? Or is it more serious than that?

 

[lovinthehd]

What is strange is a guy like Danny at GR had the same view about CABLES. He knew good cable equaled no induced issues.
He wasn't building in a problem to the product, by not doing the final test, "LISTENING". He was so use to measuring everything
and relying on what he knew to be true. Then and only then did he realize being hardheaded about speakers would equal to the
same silly nonsense about cables. "HE LISTEN" with the equipment he used. I'm not saying expensive cables don't do something
for peoples egos. Not mine. Very good cables doesn't have to cost much more than zip cord.

His playback system is pretty impressive. I think he uses Dodd amps and some pretty sensitive planars arrays. He found out though.
A certain type of Power cable with some equipment works very well together. I think he was at a show and used a loaner PC or something.

Some equipment sounds like a blanket is thrown over the speaker.
Aluminum stranded cable with copper clad and PVC will do it. There is a company that was making a weave cable that actually caused problems
with some amps. They were power cable. They seemed to think pretty was equal to quality and bigger is better. IT'S NOT.
Some cable is not made to be bent or woven. It's made to be flexible for placement, not constant movement.

Cary valve gear is VERY sensitive to crappy PC or any IC for that matter. Mac, Pass, First Watt, not so much.
I didn't make the stuff, I just use it. I quit limiting the SQ of my systems by not being so hardheaded 30 years ago.
Quality cables and terminal ends along with good cable routing pays huge dividends. Cost = ZERO, just time to routing correctly. All of the little
things add up to synergistic approach. "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts".
I never believed in buying from one manufacture, especially cable looms. 5-50k for looms. How about 3-500.00 and a good pizza?

Figures you'd support the loony Danny.

 

[OHMisback]

Figures you'd support the loony Danny.

I also liked Billy Graham.

You actually think Danny is Loony? I've know of him, sense he first started out.
I admire Danny and the people he works with to produce his cabinets and finished or unfinished kits.

I had a pair of 123s Neo 8 LS. They were a pure PITA. Nothing fixed them.

I've heard two sets of modified speakers from him. I wasn't a fan before the modification,
I still wasn't after. Neither were my speakers. Both were stand mounts. Again not something
I usually use.

I've purchased 4 Dual 12" servo kits with cabinets. Excellent product. Nothing loony about those.

What is "Loony" about Danny. He has always answered every question of mine with nothing but, easy to understand
information and always a follow up.

I thought he was a little testy with an a friend many years ago, that produced kits. VMPS.
Some people made comments like Danny and some loved the owner, Brian Cheney. I miss the guy. RIP.

Danny has grown like all professionals. He has a heck of a following and is a real easy listen. I think he is
pretty honest. At the same time he is offering a service and I see very few complaints if ever from actual
customers. I just see quacking in the peanut gallery but seldom actual customers complaining about any
poor service or being unhappy. Maybe less that overwhelmed, BUT Dissatisfied, I haven't seen any issues.

Gene offers a service too. I admire people who help others. Service to others is NEVER easy. It's easy to
pick apart others work, "until".

I choose to find what they have to offer not pick apart what they do.
Suggestions of a better way are always welcome. After years of teaching mechanics, being an jerk, calling
names, won't work if you're trying to help.

If you think I haven't heard and read a LOT when it comes to cables, you got me all mixed up. Surface treatment,
contact enhancers, golden plate, star ground (marine ground), air tube, helix, pinwheel. Silk, cotton, silicone.
I produce a HARP box it's fun. You add different cable constructs. You can add up to 20 via red copper turrets.
If I use a HARP box I use solid core wire, .120 .9999% tungsten, .9999 OCC #18 copper, 2 strands of .100 .99999 M/soft silver, ALL for the mids and highs.

I will mention my failures, I will share my successes or no change too.

I'm not a Troll, Leprechaun, Phool, Deluded or have any untreated mental defects (at this time)
I am how ever an American Irish / Sioux male 67 years old. I'm a retired Master mechanic.
I HATE cleaning any grout/concrete and love Terriers. So what.

As far a Danny
he has contributed to the audiophile community for a while. I like him.

 

[highfigh]

On one hand I'm glad we've had some audio posts living here again. I wasn't prepared for the subjectivist side of it, though.

It's kinda like political propaganda: you only believe it if it makes you feel good inside.

Do we make improvements so our system will measure/test well, or sound better?

My problem is that people spout BS and companies base their marketing on it.

 

[highfigh]

You mean like storming the Capitol while hoping to catch the US Vice President so that he can be hanged properly?

You just can't leave politics and your hatred of Trump out of threads that have nothing to do with them, can you?

And you probably wonder why people use TDS as an acronym.

 

[ryanosaur]

TDS

Total Dissolved Solids?

 

[ryanosaur]

Do we make improvements so our system will measure/test well, or sound better?

Ideally, both. But it depends on the person. For example, I believe the good sound isn't completely predicated on a perfectly flat in-room measurement. Given the time and opportunity, I might play around with that someday just to see what minor placement tweaks could be made... but...

More to the point:

My problem is that people spout BS and companies base their marketing on it.

I agree. That's why I added the part obout the subjectivist viewpoint. It's too easy to trick oneself into thinking you hear something different. And to trick others into the same thing.
We all should well know that you shouldn't chase electronics or cables as a means to tune your rig: this is a fool's errand.
I guess, certainly, if you enjoy the sound and effect of tubes... have at it, but then you can't really pretend your system is operating in a linear or accurate fashion. But specialty cables or Amps that aren't verified by measurements... believing the terms like warm or transparent without seeing a corresponding measurement that somehow details a bump in mid-bass FR or whatever matches ones sonic preferences...
You see where I'm going with this.
So yes, people spout BS, companies market BS... and sadly people spend money on it as we know all too well.

 

[OHMisback]

You mean like storming the Capitol while hoping to catch the US Vice President so that he can be hanged properly?

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"hanged properly"? OR Hung properly?.

I think you're a strange one wanting to know how the X vice president is hung. I'm sure he's not into that either. You on the other hand I'm not so sure.
X VP Pence is a politician. He is also one of the better ones.

All BS and kidding aside. I didn't and don't care for many elected officials. I've NEVER wished harm on any of them. I lived through Eisenhower (as a child), JFK,
Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Regan, Bush and Clinton. I wished them ALL long lives and wise decisions during their terms. It didn't always happen.
Look at what we have now. The VP scares me to death. She could actually become our president.
The current president need to keep the bicycle helmet ON and stay OFF the bicycle.

All of them need to stay off the golf courses. But if they are going to be there WALK, or get an overweight/wide load sign for the front and back.
Mr. Trump is getting bigger.

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I agree. That's why I added the part about the subjectivist viewpoint. It's too easy to trick oneself into thinking you hear something different. And to trick others into the same thing.

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I've had to teach people my whole life to understand what they hear vs WANT TO HEAR. That is the difference between a professional and
someone else. I don't like to speak for others. It has been my experience a pessimist may be your best friend, if not just to shut them up and
prove them wrong. LOL

The more difficult to discern, is with earplugs and muffs ON and still hear and (more so) FEEL the difference. That is where the rubber
meets the road. To be able to isolate a noise that should OR shouldn't be there with a LOT of other noises/frequencies/harmonics present.
It boils down to training. To thine own self be true and break out the Test equipment. No ones perfect.

Now, cables that work better together than apart.

 

[lovinthehd]

I also liked Billy Graham.

You actually think Danny is Loony? I've know of him, sense he first started out.
I admire Danny and the people he works with to produce his cabinets and finished or unfinished kits.

I had a pair of 123s Neo 8 LS. They were a pure PITA. Nothing fixed them.

I've heard two sets of modified speakers from him. I wasn't a fan before the modification,
I still wasn't after. Neither were my speakers. Both were stand mounts. Again not something
I usually use.

I've purchased 4 Dual 12" servo kits with cabinets. Excellent product. Nothing loony about those.

What is "Loony" about Danny. He has always answered every question of mine with nothing but, easy to understand
information and always a follow up.

I thought he was a little testy with an a friend many years ago, that produced kits. VMPS.
Some people made comments like Danny and some loved the owner, Brian Cheney. I miss the guy. RIP.

Danny has grown like all professionals. He has a heck of a following and is a real easy listen. I think he is
pretty honest. At the same time he is offering a service and I see very few complaints if ever from actual
customers. I just see quacking in the peanut gallery but seldom actual customers complaining about any
poor service or being unhappy. Maybe less that overwhelmed, BUT Dissatisfied, I haven't seen any issues.

Gene offers a service too. I admire people who help others. Service to others is NEVER easy. It's easy to
pick apart others work, "until".

I choose to find what they have to offer not pick apart what they do.
Suggestions of a better way are always welcome. After years of teaching mechanics, being an jerk, calling
names, won't work if you're trying to help.

If you think I haven't heard and read a LOT when it comes to cables, you got me all mixed up. Surface treatment,
contact enhancers, golden plate, star ground (marine ground), air tube, helix, pinwheel. Silk, cotton, silicone.
I produce a HARP box it's fun. You add different cable constructs. You can add up to 20 via red copper turrets.
If I use a HARP box I use solid core wire, .120 .9999% tungsten, .9999 OCC #18 copper, 2 strands of .100 .99999 M/soft silver, ALL for the mids and highs.

I will mention my failures, I will share my successes or no change too.

I'm not a Troll, Leprechaun, Phool, Deluded or have any untreated mental defects (at this time)
I am how ever an American Irish / Sioux male 67 years old. I'm a retired Master mechanic.
I HATE cleaning any grout/concrete and love Terriers. So what.

As far a Danny
he has contributed to the audiophile community for a while. I like him.

No accounting for tastes I suppose, particularly with preachers like Danny and Billy.

I also liked Billy Graham.

You actually think Danny is Loony? I've know of him, sense he first started out.
I admire Danny and the people he works with to produce his cabinets and finished or unfinished kits.

I had a pair of 123s Neo 8 LS. They were a pure PITA. Nothing fixed them.

I've heard two sets of modified speakers from him. I wasn't a fan before the modification,
I still wasn't after. Neither were my speakers. Both were stand mounts. Again not something
I usually use.

I've purchased 4 Dual 12" servo kits with cabinets. Excellent product. Nothing loony about those.

What is "Loony" about Danny. He has always answered every question of mine with nothing but, easy to understand
information and always a follow up.

I thought he was a little testy with an a friend many years ago, that produced kits. VMPS.
Some people made comments like Danny and some loved the owner, Brian Cheney. I miss the guy. RIP.

Danny has grown like all professionals. He has a heck of a following and is a real easy listen. I think he is
pretty honest. At the same time he is offering a service and I see very few complaints if ever from actual
customers. I just see quacking in the peanut gallery but seldom actual customers complaining about any
poor service or being unhappy. Maybe less that overwhelmed, BUT Dissatisfied, I haven't seen any issues.

Gene offers a service too. I admire people who help others. Service to others is NEVER easy. It's easy to
pick apart others work, "until".

I choose to find what they have to offer not pick apart what they do.
Suggestions of a better way are always welcome. After years of teaching mechanics, being an jerk, calling
names, won't work if you're trying to help.

If you think I haven't heard and read a LOT when it comes to cables, you got me all mixed up. Surface treatment,
contact enhancers, golden plate, star ground (marine ground), air tube, helix, pinwheel. Silk, cotton, silicone.
I produce a HARP box it's fun. You add different cable constructs. You can add up to 20 via red copper turrets.
If I use a HARP box I use solid core wire, .120 .9999% tungsten, .9999 OCC #18 copper, 2 strands of .100 .99999 M/soft silver, ALL for the mids and highs.

I will mention my failures, I will share my successes or no change too.

I'm not a Troll, Leprechaun, Phool, Deluded or have any untreated mental defects (at this time)
I am how ever an American Irish / Sioux male 67 years old. I'm a retired Master mechanic.
I HATE cleaning any grout/concrete and love Terriers. So what.

As far a Danny
he has contributed to the audiophile community for a while. I like him.

Might try

GR Research Hot topic?

I recently like the last 3 days discovered the GR Research YouTube channel and at first I was like, ok interesting but as I kept watch videos I noticed a trend. A lot of times he'll say the response is pretty flat after testing and he'll say about the crossover parts "cheesy" but if it's flat...

forums.audioholics.com

GR Research LGK 2.0 Kit Speaker Review (video)

Video review of my recently tested GR Research LGK 2.0 DIY Kit speaker. There is bonus content here including recording of the sound coming out of the speaker and some additional graphs (which were also added to the text review):

www.audiosciencereview.com

His sub drivers seem to be without too much nonsense, unlike the cable nonsense you seem to be into.

 

[Trell]

Oh man, now we've got two magic cable loving trolls in here giving each other pats on the back? Or is it more serious than that?

They even believe that cable BS themselves and when people think of audiophiles it’s individuals like those two that comes to mind.

I don’t say I’m an audiophile to people because of all the ignorant BS in HiFi audio, and I certainly don’t want to be associated with that. What I do tell people is that I like music and want it to sound as good as possible at home. Similar for home theatre.

 

[mtrycrafts]

No accounting for tastes I suppose, particularly with preachers like Danny and Billy.

Might try

GR Research Hot topic?

I recently like the last 3 days discovered the GR Research YouTube channel and at first I was like, ok interesting but as I kept watch videos I noticed a trend. A lot of times he'll say the response is pretty flat after testing and he'll say about the crossover parts "cheesy" but if it's flat...

forums.audioholics.com

GR Research LGK 2.0 Kit Speaker Review (video)

Video review of my recently tested GR Research LGK 2.0 DIY Kit speaker. There is bonus content here including recording of the sound coming out of the speaker and some additional graphs (which were also added to the text review):

www.audiosciencereview.com

His sub drivers seem to be without too much nonsense, unlike the cable nonsense you seem to be into.

Boy, that amirm video is interesting, especially why he tests one speaker by itself. I guess amirm talked to Toole about that.

And, interesting why amirm didn't get a speaker from the maker, wow.

 

[NINaudio]

They even believe that cable BS themselves and when people think of audiophiles it’s individuals like those two that comes to mind.

I don’t say I’m an audiophile to people because of all the ignorant BS in HiFi audio, and I certainly don’t want to be associated with that. What I do tell people is that I like music and want it to sound as good as possible at home. Similar for home theatre.

I got a dumb and a disagree from those two so I guess I hit the nail right on the head.

 

[panteragstk]

J

Telling some unsuspecting audio consumer that just spent $30K on a pair of speakers to use $3 lamp cord to connect them to his $12K amp and $7K preamp is even more egregious. In fact you could shine the light of value on every component and vendor and there will always be a few that use shady tactics some where, why limit it to cables?

Having been in audio sales and other sales jobs over the years I've noticed that you are 100% correct. Most people spending the money like in your example don't want to be told that a cheap cable is as good as an expensive one. They want to boast about how much their gear costs, not how good it sounds. If the DO care about how it sounds, and the expensive cable doesn't color the sound, then of course they don't care that the cables are expensive. They just spent $30k on speakers. They've got the money to waste on expensive cables that don't do anything a cheaper version can easily do just as well. They don't care that they're expensive.

But they do care if you tell them they wasted their money. They'd rather babble on about audiophool nonsense than admit that a bigger price tag doesn't do anything in real world tests. If they swear they can tell a difference between cables, it's because of their own bias, not reality.

 

[panteragstk]

Oh man, now we've got two magic cable loving trolls in here giving each other pats on the back? Or is it more serious than that?

Even better that the "sources" that are posted are from people known to spread BS in the audio community.

"Hey guys, why don't you believe my non-scientific sources that prove my point for me and offer zero proof of their claims? You just gonna believe industry experts and people that do actual lab research? Crazy talk."

I feel like I've seen this logic somewhere before...

 

[OHMisback]

I got a dumb and a disagree from those two so I guess I hit the nail right on the head.

No it's the fact you called someone you know nothing about "cable loving trolls". Nothing else. I'm not calling you
and ignorant F___ for not agreeing with me that YOU are probably deaf or the fact your system probably can't show
a difference in cables.

I'm a Salk Song 3 fan actually. 86% sensitivity and an AVR, you're NOT going to need anything fancy that's, for sure.
I thought they used an AC G3 ribbon tweeter. I've use all the AC tweeters products in one application or another. I think it's the best
tweeter you can get for the money and they have replacement ribbon for some, that doesn't require a degree in diaphragm
replacement from UCLA to do it. Some planars tensioning the membrane is a PITA.

It's not to often I sample cables on an AVR. I do use a couple of HT preamps with different power amps. Mcintosh MX45, MX120, 121, 122. The C45 and MX120 has the
best stereo and 3 channel analog. An external phono section can be picky about cables with an HT preamp,. You still need QUIET RCA TT cables.
I did replace the 10 year old CAT 5 with Super 8 (I think). That was a wonderful increase in performance, DL/UL. I paid 16 and 22.00 USD. The connections are VERY nice, heavy insulation, shielding and a flat ribbon design. 15 and 25' runs.

I still go back to an analog valve system to listen to cables. Mcintosh C20, MC225/240 and QSO 808s 90% at 8 ohms sensitivity.
or
Cary SLP-05, V12Rs and RM30 monitors. 92% at 11 ohms (just the monitor section).
They uncover a world of differences in cables.

It's things, I've done forever, why change, IF I'm having success and I'M happy. Who cares what people think or say as long as it's not PERSONALLY insulting others.

As for cables, just like everything else, "everything matters". It just doesn't have to cost a fortune to use great cables. I've used 20K speaker cables. (I didn't pay for them.)
I've used 500.00 LOOMS, that I've made that I liked better. Maybe not quite as pretty but better as far as what I like in speaker cable construction.

Nothing ADDED, nothing removed = great cables.

 

[OHMisback]

But they do care if you tell them they wasted their money. They'd rather babble on about audiophool nonsense than admit that a bigger price tag doesn't do anything in real world tests. If they swear they can tell a difference between cables, it's because of their own bias, not reality.

You say you were in the business. The business of selling what type of equipment? I don't want to leave you or ME red faced. What kind of equipment
did you sell and what did you offer with the equipment you sold? 1970s or 2020. When?

Audiophool? A good salesman gives a customer what they need first and what they WANT second. Unless they like returns with the wife and three kids in TOW.
Then you have audio-fun with the WIFE screaming at YOU. Options without prices and a sour look goes a lot further. You don't sell a guy 5K of cable looms with
a 250lb wife who is muggin' you either. Get KOed or tased that way. That would make the salesman a phool, maybe.

If they come in looking for "a product", ASK them "do you have any questions on the return policy or any question before the purchase?"
Sell them the product and thank them.

If anyone thinks that is selling someone something, they are WRONG. The person came in to buy that product. Be a good salesman.
It would be like women underwear, what do I know? Enough, but not to much.

 

[NINaudio]

No it's the fact you called someone you know nothing about "cable loving trolls". Nothing else.
I'm not calling you and ignorant F___ for not agreeing with me that YOU are probably deaf or the fact your system probably can't show a difference in cables.

Get it right: it's "magic cable loving trolls."

Hell, just look at the poll, only 2 other people agree with you and the other guy that cable synergy exists.

I'm not calling you and ignorant F___ for not agreeing with me that YOU are probably deaf or the fact your system probably can't show a difference in cables.

You're not saying it outright, but by merely mentioning it you are heavily implying it.

I still go back to an analog valve system to listen to cables.

"Listen to cables" god, you're a riot.

Nothing ADDED, nothing removed = great cables.

Which is something that is quite easily achieved. There's no need to complicate like some people love to do.

 

[CajunLB]

What test? Everyone ask for test what the heck are you testing that hasn't been tested?
It's a little LATE for testing. You're NOT going to change anything by testing, ARE YOU?
That's MY POINT. If it has what you want buy it if not don't.

I have weight limits, age limits, speed limits and spending limits. Cables fall under "Spending"
The neighbor has 65K cable sets. I have under 500.00 total for a systems. LOL "Spending Limits"

Does your neighbors system sound better than yours? I’m sure It does just by seeing the price difference in cables. The neighbor went for Synergy.

 

[witchdoctor]

Having been in audio sales and other sales jobs over the years I've noticed that you are 100% correct. Most people spending the money like in your example don't want to be told that a cheap cable is as good as an expensive one. They want to boast about how much their gear costs, not how good it sounds. If the DO care about how it sounds, and the expensive cable doesn't color the sound, then of course they don't care that the cables are expensive. They just spent $30k on speakers. They've got the money to waste on expensive cables that don't do anything a cheaper version can easily do just as well. They don't care that they're expensive.

But they do care if you tell them they wasted their money. They'd rather babble on about audiophool nonsense than admit that a bigger price tag doesn't do anything in real world tests. If they swear they can tell a difference between cables, it's because of their own bias, not reality.

What, wasting money on pricey audio gear? I am sure no one here is guilty of that You do make a good point about cost bias. I don't think it is limited to cables, I see prices for all components that leaves me scratching my head. That is why I enjoy this forum, finding useful info to squeeze the last drop of performance from what I bought. Genes series with Anthony Grimani on room treatments were a gigantic help in setting up my room. Getting the speakers placed to the inch with a laser pointer, setting the degrees from MLP, etc. My current processor costs around $2K and it sounds amazing after taking care of the "system" the room, the power, the cables, etc. When I see processors costing 10 times that amount that leaves me scratching my head. Unless it has some new feature you need what is the point? The point to me is the guy that spent $2K on a processor and didn't dial in the other compoents so he goes, I'll just buy a new processor, and then that needs a refresh in 3-5 years etc.