Upgrading both my AVR and integrated stereo amp

[Gil111000]

Hi!
I have a 5.1 setup I enjoy with a Yamaha RXV373 reciever.
For movies it's doing well, but it struggles to meet my needs with music.

I'm planning on upgrading to a Denon X3700/X4700 and I also want to incorporate an integrated stereo amp to enjoy both worlds.

Now, my fronts are Monitor Audio Silver RX2. I've read the best combinations are Musical Fidelity and Audiolab.

I'm not sure which model I should get, the Musical Fidelity M2Si (which I found a good 2nd hand deal for), or a new Audiolab 6000A.
Unfortunately I can't audition any of them.
Coming from a basic Yamaha AVR I'm expecting to hear a dramatic difference with such a change in setup.

I plan on mostly streaming music through WiFi using Tidal to the AVR. Can content streamed this way to the AVR be used for the integrated stereo amp? Or do I need the stereo amp itself to support WiFi streaming?

The end goal is to combine surround sound (although currently basic) with quality stereo through the HT Bypass feature both devices share. If using it this way, does the lack of connectivity the M2Si have has any impact on my usage?

 

[fmw]

Why do you think an integrated amp will do something your AVR will not do? I recommend you find that out before you spend your money.

 

[Gil111000]

Why do you think an integrated amp will do something your AVR will not do? I recommend you find that out before you spend your money.

A good stereo amp can deliver better two channel sound than most AVR's two channel capabilities. That's at least what I read online.
The components cost is divided between less amplifiers.

 

[PENG]

A good stereo amp can deliver better two channel sound than most AVR's two channel capabilities. That's at least what I read online.
The components cost is divided between less amplifiers.

Those amps are fine but there are better values. The MA silver speaker's can sound their best with many separate amps as well as avrs. In fact, some avrs have better bench test results than integrated amps and separate preamps and power amps. Obvious the opposite is true in many cases.

You need to compare specific models and search put those bench tests. Subjective reviews may be entertaining and good to read, but just because they say one amp sounds better than the others, it does not mean you will feel the same.

In general, the quality of the media contents and the speaker's in room performance are much more important. If power is not the issue, AVR amps and separate amps should make little audible difference when people use their ears instead of their eyes.

 

[TLS Guy]

A good stereo amp can deliver better two channel sound than most AVR's two channel capabilities. That's at least what I read online.
The components cost is divided between less amplifiers.

That is not true. Integrated amps tend to be very bad value for money. On the whole they are low powered with limited facilities. Worse, trying to integrate them into an HT system, makes for ghastly Frankenstein systems with a nightmare switching system, also giving rise to huge opportunities to generate unwanted noise.

Your receiver is an older low powered receiver. However the main issue is that you are using small, and not very powerful bookshelf speakers.

Changing amps will do nothing for you. The fact is that a lot of music sources have wide dynamic range. This means that for really realistic reproduction speakers and amps require large power reserves.

Looking to "magic" speaker/amp combinations is fools gold. The Net, is awash in that kind of nonsense, that requires a massive ignore. It is good basic engineering that get the job done, and a total rejection and of Audiophool voodoo.

As is usual, and in your case the first upgrade needs to be the speakers. The front three are really crucial, especially the center for HT and multichannel of all varieties. I would also upgrade the receiver. I personally favor pre/pros, but this obviously requires external amplification. Second best is a good receiver with preouts, and then you can drive speakers of your choice with external amps. If 2 channel stereo listening is a high priority then a good 2 channel for the right and left fronts is the way to go.

If you proceed with your current plan you will throw a lot of money down the drain for no gain in SQ.

 

[j_garcia]

Better amps in an integrated is true if you are comparing a lower model AVR and might have been more true in the past compared to now. Older AVRs had inflated power ratings vs. actual, so you had to know what you were buying. These days, I would not say that is the case anymore, and in either case, buying an AVR that has enough power to meet your needs solves that issue. If you need more power than a good AVR, then an integrated amp isn't going to do it for you either.

 

[Gil111000]

That is not true. Integrated amps tend to be very bad value for money. On the whole they are low powered with limited facilities. Worse, trying to integrate them into an HT system, makes for ghastly Frankenstein systems with a nightmare switching system, also giving rise to huge opportunities to generate unwanted noise.

Your receiver is an older low powered receiver. However the main issue is that you are using small, and not very powerful bookshelf speakers.

Changing amps will do nothing for you. The fact is that a lot of music sources have wide dynamic range. This means that for really realistic reproduction speakers and amps require large power reserves.

Looking to "magic" speaker/amp combinations is fools gold. The Net, is awash in that kind of nonsense, that requires a massive ignore. It is good basic engineering that get the job done, and a total rejection and of Audiophool voodoo.

As is usual, and in your case the first upgrade needs to be the speakers. The front three are really crucial, especially the center for HT and multichannel of all varieties. I would also upgrade the receiver. I personally favor pre/pros, but this obviously requires external amplification. Second best is a good receiver with preouts, and then you can drive speakers of your choice with external amps. If 2 channel stereo listening is a high priority then a good 2 channel for the right and left fronts is the way to go.

If you proceed with your current plan you will throw a lot of money down the drain for no gain in SQ.

I appreciate the time you put to answer with such detail, the same goes for everyone who commented here.

What do you mean by pre/pros? Is it seperate pre amp and power amp?
You say the second best is a good reciever with pre outs, then driving the front two speakers with external amps. Isn't that what I planned? My plan is upgrading to a better reciever that has pre outs (For example, a Denon X3700), and getting seperate stereo amps connected via pre outs to the AVR.

Did you mean I should get a seperate preamp and poweramp instead of an integrated amp? Because otherwise, I see no difference in what you offer next to what I was planning...

 

[Beave]

What are you using for a center speaker, surrounds, and subwoofer?

What do you find lacking in your current setup with regards to music ("For movies it's doing well, but it struggles to meet my needs with music")?

One of the Denon AVRs should be fine. Maybe even overkill for what you need (those models can do 9 or 11 channels of sound if I remember right). No external amp or integrated amp needed unless you have a large room and sit far away from the speakers, and/or listen at really high levels, and/or have speakers that require a lot of power to get loud.

 

[Beave]

I just looked at your posting history and found a post in which you shared a picture of your room and setup.

I reiterate my stance that you won't need an external amp, and that even the Denon X3700/X4700 level models are probably overkill.

Your system is limited by your room and your placement more than by your receiver power.

1. You should pull your center speaker out from under the TV and closer to the front of the stand.

2. Your right speaker is away from walls except right behind it, while your left speaker is in a corner - too close to the sidewall/glass door.

Can you more the entire setup to the right some, to get that left speaker out of the corner and away from the glass doors and wall? You want the environment for the two front speakers to be as symmetric as possible. As it is now, the left speaker is in a very different acoustic environment than the right speaker.

Also consider curtains on the window and maybe even around the sliding glass door area.

3. Your listening position is up against a wall that is reflective. That's non ideal. If you're stuck with that arrangement, you might benefit from some acoustic panels on that wall behind your couch. That would do far more good than buying an integrated amp.


Buying any external amp or integrated amp would be a total waste of money given your limitations in room setup. Same goes for a high end receiver. A Denon X2700 should be plenty good enough.

 

[Gil111000]

What are you using for a center speaker, surrounds, and subwoofer?

What do you find lacking in your current setup with regards to music ("For movies it's doing well, but it struggles to meet my needs with music")?

One of the Denon AVRs should be fine. Maybe even overkill for what you need (those models can do 9 or 11 channels of sound if I remember right). No external amp or integrated amp needed unless you have a large room and sit far away from the speakers, and/or listen at really high levels, and/or have speakers that require a lot of power to get loud.

Definitely stuck with that arrangement unfortunately. Will get curtains and probably a carpet too. Moving the center out means raising the TV's wall mount and that requires more drilling, maybe I will though, if it'll make a difference.

I feel like the music isn't as dynamic as I'd like it. Some genres sound great while others aren't as catching as they should. For example classical music, anything with violins just doesn't sound authentic enough. Also the dynamic range feels a bit flatter than what I prefer. Not enough emotion flows through.

I might be expecting too much for my budget, but I have heard my speakers connected to a 5 grand Electrocompaniet stereo amp and the sound was definitely better. The room acoustics weren't much different than mines.

 

[Swerd]

What do you mean by pre/pros? Is it seperate pre amp and power amp?
You say the second best is a good reciever with pre outs, then driving the front two speakers with external amps. Isn't that what I planned? My plan is upgrading to a better reciever that has pre outs (For example, a Denon X3700), and getting seperate stereo amps connected via pre outs to the AVR.

A good part of your questions arise from your possible confusion over some jargon. That confusion is understandable and we often see it here. Your original post mentioned using a Denon X3700 AVR that has preamp output jacks, combined with an amp. But you then mentioned two possible integrated amps that you are considering. Confusing all of us.

Pre/pro is short for a preamp/processor. All AVRs and pre/pros contain digital processing chips. They not only process digital audio coming from movie soundtracks, they also perform a number of preamp sound processing tasks, in the digital realm. In previous decades, they were done using analogue circuits.

Amp usually refers to an external amplifier with a variety of audio channels, from one to many. An external amp requires a preamp, a pre/pro, or an AVR with pre out jacks.

Integrated Amp refers to a piece of electronic gear (almost always 2-channel stereo) that combines a 2-channel preamp with a 2-channel amplifier. They are stereo receivers without the AM/FM radio receiver. Most all integrated amps are old technology that existed before digital audio processing. Their designs haven't been changed or improved since the 1990s.

Despite what you have read online, integrated amps do not perform better at audio than a good AVR. There are now a few integrated amps that do accept digital signal inputs, but they still process preamp audio as an analog signal. But they should not be considered as truly digital, much less modern.

Did you mean I should get a seperate preamp and poweramp instead of an integrated amp? Because otherwise, I see no difference in what you offer next to what I was planning...

If you get an AVR, such as that Denon, all you should consider is adding external amplifiers for two or more channels. A pre/pro requires external amps for all the channels in use. Pre/pros cost quite a lot more than the very good Denon AVR you mentioned.

Don't try to combine an integrated amp with any AVR. That duplicates functions, adding to the expense, and can cause electronic problems that require Frankenstein-like switching gadgets.

 

[Swerd]

I feel like the music isn't as dynamic as I'd like it. Some genres sound great while others aren't as catching as they should. For example classical music, anything with violins just doesn't sound authentic enough. Also the dynamic range feels a bit flatter than what I prefer. Not enough emotion flows through.

I agree with Beave's comments, in general. That Denon AVR should have enough power to drive your speakers.

To me, your comments sound like you are disappointed with your speakers, not the gear driving them.

For electronic audio gear, you should expect that it deliver low distortion and low noise signals to your speakers. Those signals must have enough power to drive your speakers, loud enough to suit you, without ever going into what is called clipping – when an amplifier's power becomes limited. When an amp clips while trying to drive speakers at loud levels, for long enough time, it will damage them. Any other 'sound quality' of any receiver or amp, is just a salesman trying to sell you more than you need.

You had mentioned hearing a "5 grand Electrocompaniet stereo amp" driving your speakers. Was that in a store? Was that an integrated amp selling for $5k? What was the power rating of that amp? Never underestimate a salesman's wish to earn a bigger commission. Also, you cannot make a fair comparison to the sound in your home unless you hear both systems in the same room.

 

[Gil111000]

I agree with Beave's comments, in general. That Denon AVR should have enough power to drive your speakers.

To me, your comments sound like you are disappointed with your speakers, not the gear driving them.

For electronic audio gear, you should expect that it deliver low distortion and low noise signals to your speakers. Those signals must have enough power to drive your speakers, loud enough to suit you, without ever going into what is called clipping – when an amplifier's power becomes limited. When an amp clips while trying to drive speakers at loud levels, for long enough time, it will damage them. Any other 'sound quality' of any receiver or amp, is just a salesman trying to sell you more than you need.

You had mentioned hearing a "5 grand Electrocompaniet stereo amp" driving your speakers. Was that in a store? Was that an integrated amp selling for $5k? What was the power rating of that amp? Never underestimate a salesman's wish to earn a bigger commission. Also, you cannot make a fair comparison to the sound in your home unless you hear both systems in the same room.

The person I bought the MA Silvers from had them hooked to the Electrocompaniet. It's an integrated amp, the room acoustics weren't special and far from ideal, no room/acoustic treatment done. No idea about power rating and I actually forgot the exact model anyways. I'm sure the room still colors the sound even without special treatment.

I'm not keen on spending more than needed therefore your advice (and others) are very helpful and appreciated.
Basically, you say if I neglect an integrated amp option and just go for a regular external amp, I'll use the AVR as a pre amp for the stereo amp, and benefit from a better DAC and amplification on the external amp?
If that's the case, wouldn't the AVR color the sound in stereo? When the goal is to completely bypass the AVR when stereo listening...

If I'll get an external amp that isn't integrated, will I be able to utilize an HT bypass? So the combination of HT and 2ch be more convenient instead of using some sort of speaker switch?

 

[TLS Guy]

The person I bought the MA Silvers from had them hooked to the Electrocompaniet. It's an integrated amp, the room acoustics weren't special and far from ideal, no room/acoustic treatment done. No idea about power rating and I actually forgot the exact model anyways. I'm sure the room still colors the sound even without special treatment.

I'm not keen on spending more than needed therefore your advice (and others) are very helpful and appreciated.
Basically, you say if I neglect an integrated amp option and just go for a regular external amp, I'll use the AVR as a pre amp for the stereo amp, and benefit from a better DAC and amplification on the external amp?
If that's the case, wouldn't the AVR color the sound in stereo? When the goal is to completely bypass the AVR when stereo listening...

If I'll get an external amp that isn't integrated, will I be able to utilize an HT bypass? So the combination of HT and 2ch be more convenient instead of using some sort of speaker switch?

There is a lot of misunderstanding. AV preamps and receivers have a pass through, generally labelled something like pure. In which case they are just like an old preamp. However these days most like to extend the bass range, and so want a sub to capture the last two octaves. In this mode, bass management is required which an integrated amp will not give you. You can select two channel listening and still have base management. You can, and in my view generally should disable any Eq, and especially any auto Eq like Audyssey.

Having been in this a long time, I can assure that any decent pre/pro, or receiver, can give you a straight through signal if you want.

However, once you have one, I bet you will want a sub. After you get a sub I can guarantee you will want to use bass management and NOT straight pass through. The smaller your main speakers the more you will not want to use your rig without bass management.

 

[Gil111000]

There is a lot of misunderstanding. AV preamps and receivers have a pass through, generally labelled something like pure. In which case they are just like an old preamp. However these days most like to extend the bass range, and so want a sub to capture the last two octaves. In this mode, bass management is required which an integrated amp will not give you. You can select two channel listening and still have base management. You can, and in my view generally should disable any Eq, and especially any auto Eq like Audyssey.

Having been in this a long time, I can assure that any decent pre/pro, or receiver, can give you a straight through signal if you want.

However, once you have one, I bet you will want a sub. After you get a sub I can guarantee you will want to use bass management and NOT straight pass through. The smaller your main speakers the more you will not want to use your rig without bass management.

You didn't quite answered what I wrote...
I do have a 5.1 currently with an SVS SB1000.
Will using the AVR as pre amp to a power amp color the sound compared to using an independent stereo system (integrated or pre+ power)?

If I'll use the AVR as pre amp, will I get the benefit of a better DAC and amp on an external stereo amp, therefore achieving better stereo sound quality? Or do I need to completely bypass the AVR for such usage?

What do you mean exactly by bass management? Do I need a stereo amp that's 2.1 to use my powered sub?
What does pure mode matter to me? Is that the way to use the AVR as preamp and the external amp as DAC and amp? And if it is, then again - wouldn't it color the sound, which I want to avoid?

 

[lovinthehd]

No, an avr won't color the sound any more than an integrated amp or separate preamp/amp....unless you use tone controls or eq or sound modes etc to color it yourself. Why would the dac on an integrated amp be particularly good or important compared to dacs in an avr? DACs have long been a solved issue, and even among external dacs the differences aren't in sound quality. I think integrated amps are mostly a waste unless all you have are two speakers and don't want bass management (okay, some 2ch integrated amps offer bass management, but relatively few of them....many just offer a full range pre-out for a sub). Bass management being the ability to high pass your speakers and a low pass for the subs (i.e. a crossover).

 

[Gil111000]

No, an avr won't color the sound any more than an integrated amp or separate preamp/amp....unless you use tone controls or eq or sound modes etc to color it yourself. Why would the dac on an integrated amp be particularly good or important compared to dacs in an avr? DACs have long been a solved issue, and even among external dacs the differences aren't in sound quality. I think integrated amps are mostly a waste unless all you have are two speakers and don't want bass management (okay, some 2ch integrated amps offer bass management, but relatively few of them....many just offer a full range pre-out for a sub). Bass management being the ability to high pass your speakers and a low pass for the subs (i.e. a crossover).

So all the information online about combining HT with stereo amps is false and a waste of money?
Why do people incorporate multi thousand dollars worth of integrated amps in HT systems (for speakers that aren't power hungry)?

 

[Trebdp83]

I’d be curious about the crossover settings and the subwoofer settings in the current setup. A real upgrade in sound starts with the speakers and throwing money at other devices to improve the sound is simply a waste of money. It’s crazy how much money is wasted on gear that deliver nothing more in sound but only supposed peace of mind in those that believe it sounds better than it did before the purchase of costly devices.

Many upgrade receivers for new HDMI specs and sound processing but rarely to improve two channel music performance. Nothing will improve on that more than new speakers. Often, optimal settings and speaker placement can improve sound in the current speakers used in a system.

 

[PENG]

You didn't quite answered what I wrote...
I do have a 5.1 currently with an SVS SB1000.
Will using the AVR as pre amp to a power amp color the sound compared to using an independent stereo system (integrated or pre+ power)?

If I'll use the AVR as pre amp, will I get the benefit of a better DAC and amp on an external stereo amp, therefore achieving better stereo sound quality? Or do I need to completely bypass the AVR for such usage?

What do you mean exactly by bass management? Do I need a stereo amp that's 2.1 to use my powered sub?
What does pure mode matter to me? Is that the way to use the AVR as preamp and the external amp as DAC and amp? And if it is, then again - wouldn't it color the sound, which I want to avoid?

We know TLSGuy doesn't like AVRs at all so I think he is being very helpful in this case already. I can offer a few comments:

1) Not AVR preamps/DACs are transparent enough to not color the sound but most are. To narrow down those that won't color the sound, if use well within their output limits, you can examine their audio specs, and the available bench test results.

You would want something has THD+N (total harmonic distortions plus noise) better than -80 dB, that is 0.01%, for the full bandwidth 20 to 20,000 Hz. Many may argue that even -60 dB (0.1% THD+N) would be below the threshold of audibility by most humans.

I am of the opinion that it is better to go with -80 dB of better because then we don't have to be too concerned about the harmonics contents. Also, if THD is as low as 0.01%, other distortions such as IMD (intermodulation distortions) would likely be low too.

2) External stereo amps don't have build in DACs, some mid range integrated amps do, though such build in DACs in such integrated amps are generally no better than those build in with good AVRs such as Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Anthem's. Obviously the very high end integrated amps do have better DACs build in.

3) Bass management give you the functionality in setting crossover points such as 60, 70, 80 Hz etc., so that the low frequencies can be directed to your subwoofer and let the other speakers focus on the higher frequencies (from the crossover point and up).

For more information, try Wiki:
Bass management - Wikipedia

As others alluded to already, you most likely can just use a competent AVR without the help of an external amp.

To do some research on your own, a good place to start is to take a look of reviews that include detailed bench test measurements, such as those linked below:

Denon AVR-X3300W A/V Receiver Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics
Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Yamaha RX-V6A 7.2 channel 4K / 8K Dolby AV Receiver Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The AVR-X3700H measured much better than some integrated amps also tested/measured on the same bench at ASR.

On the external power amp question, you should use an online calculator to find out your actual power need first, then go from there. Again, I agreed with other, if I were to guess I would say you don't need one as long as you go with a mid range AVR that is rated for 100 W 8 ohms with both channel driven simultaneously.

Peak SPL Calculator (hometheaterengineering.com)

 

[TLS Guy]

You didn't quite answered what I wrote...
I do have a 5.1 currently with an SVS SB1000.
Will using the AVR as pre amp to a power amp color the sound compared to using an independent stereo system (integrated or pre+ power)?

If I'll use the AVR as pre amp, will I get the benefit of a better DAC and amp on an external stereo amp, therefore achieving better stereo sound quality? Or do I need to completely bypass the AVR for such usage?

What do you mean exactly by bass management? Do I need a stereo amp that's 2.1 to use my powered sub?
What does pure mode matter to me? Is that the way to use the AVR as preamp and the external amp as DAC and amp? And if it is, then again - wouldn't it color the sound, which I want to avoid?

That first question is best answered by NO! As far as the DAC is concerned the DAC in a good receiver and pre/pro are just fine.