Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[highfigh]

I mean government and "the people" together. Admittedly, that's a pretty empty statement, but it would take a book to expand on it.

I have a good idea of what you mean but if you remember the election when Mitt(ens) Romney killed his chance of being elected POTUS by saying that more than 47% of adult Americans pay no income tax, that was true. Unfortunately, that number is higher, now. With the current tax code and the insane amount of money pissed away by Congress for things that are absolutely unnecessary, it's gonna be awhile before anything truly effective is done. Sure, Biden wants to take care of the US Infrastructure, but the cost will only add to the national debt and leave no way to 'fund' it. Yeah, they spend the money, but there's nothing coming in to pay for it on the front end. Now, the Left wants to tax the 1% and it has become a mantra for them but I can't think of anybody in Congress who is honest about who this is- the 1% is anyone who makes about $550K/year in taxable income, but that ignores the fact that people who make a lot of money (including most members of Congress) shield their income from taxes, or make most of their money in ways that aren't considered 'income'. It's all about saying what people want to hear and they're damned good at that.

Expand the link and read some of the ways the US government wastes money-

50 Examples of Government Waste

Soaring government spending and trillion-dollar budget deficits have brought fiscal responsibility -- and reducing government waste -- back onto the national agenda. President Obama recently identified 0.004 of 1 percent of the federal budget as wasteful and proposed eliminating this $140...

www.heritage.org

I have commented many times here and elsewhere about the money spent by POTUS candidates on their attempts at being elected- in 2008, reports showed that it was the most expensive election in history. 2012 said "Here, hold my beer", as did 2016 and 2020. At this point, the #1 and #2 candidates are spending more than $2 Billion, even though the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform Act was signed in 2002. The candidates just don't care- they'll spend as much as they can, in order to be elected to that office, even when people are homeless and starving..

 

[highfigh]

I mean government and "the people" together. Admittedly, that's a pretty empty statement, but it would take a book to expand on it.

It's unfortunate that at this point, 'government' and 'the people' are no longer the same.

'Government' needs to get their sh-it together and do their GD job.

 

[MaxInValrico]

I have a good idea of what you mean but if you remember the election when Mitt(ens) Romney killed his chance of being elected POTUS by saying that more than 47% of adult Americans pay no income tax, that was true. Unfortunately, that number is higher, now. With the current tax code and the insane amount of money pissed away by Congress for things that are absolutely unnecessary, it's gonna be awhile before anything truly effective is done. Sure, Biden wants to take care of the US Infrastructure, but the cost will only add to the national debt and leave no way to 'fund' it. Yeah, they spend the money, but there's nothing coming in to pay for it on the front end. Now, the Left wants to tax the 1% and it has become a mantra for them but I can't think of anybody in Congress who is honest about who this is- the 1% is anyone who makes about $550K/year in taxable income, but that ignores the fact that people who make a lot of money (including most members of Congress) shield their income from taxes, or make most of their money in ways that aren't considered 'income'. It's all about saying what people want to hear and they're damned good at that.

Expand the link and read some of the ways the US government wastes money-

50 Examples of Government Waste

Soaring government spending and trillion-dollar budget deficits have brought fiscal responsibility -- and reducing government waste -- back onto the national agenda. President Obama recently identified 0.004 of 1 percent of the federal budget as wasteful and proposed eliminating this $140...

www.heritage.org

I have commented many times here and elsewhere about the money spent by POTUS candidates on their attempts at being elected- in 2008, reports showed that it was the most expensive election in history. 2012 said "Here, hold my beer", as did 2016 and 2020. At this point, the #1 and #2 candidates are spending more than $2 Billion, even though the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform Act was signed in 2002. The candidates just don't care- they'll spend as much as they can, in order to be elected to that office, even when people are homeless and starving..

If anything is a waste, it's the Heritage Foundation.

 

[jinjuku]

You mentioned nukes, I didn't. The chance of this happening is slim, at best.

I was using nukes as a way to exaggerate a point about the limits of personal arms.

That's not sane.

Neither is shooting 10 people.

WRT your "one on none', I was referring to people, not weapons.

Weapons are called 'force multipliers'. When it's you and someone else and they have a weapon with 15 rounds it's 15:0.

I'm referring to people with weapons. Not people.

In Racine, WI, a 14 year old was arrested with a pistol and a 40 round magazine. In MKE, someone shot & killed a 'friend' over a $20 debt. How would you regulate these? How would you find the illegally possessed guns and remove them from the general population?

You START by doing something, anything. As time goes on those weapons will matriculate out of genpop.

but the chance of a home invasion is increasing

You don't need a high capacity, over penetration, long rifle.

as well as a carjacking.

Can you actually effectively use a long or short barrel rifle with high capacity mag sitting in the drivers seat of a car.

I keep a can of bear spray. With the upside being that I'm at better odds of not hesitating to use it and if my kid gets a hold of it not blowing the back of the skull out.

 

[highfigh]

If anything is a waste, it's the Heritage Foundation.

Jesus, go after the source, or post something that you believe. Give me a fucking break!

 

[highfigh]

I was using nukes as a way to exaggerate a point about the limits of personal arms.

Neither is shooting 10 people.

Weapons are called 'force multipliers'. When it's you and someone else and they have a weapon with 15 rounds it's 15:0.

I'm referring to people with weapons. Not people.

You START by doing something, anything. As time goes on those weapons will matriculate out of genpop.

You don't need a high capacity, over penetration, long rifle.

Can you actually effectively use a long or short barrel rifle with high capacity mag sitting in the drivers seat of a car.

I keep a can of bear spray. With the upside being that I'm at better odds of not hesitating to use it and if my kid gets a hold of it not blowing the back of the skull out.

BTW- I watched the news report about this 14 year old- it's a ghost gun.

Paid (by lobbyists) government members won't let these things happen, anytime soon.

It's a shame that so many people feel the need to play army, cops & robbers and be so paranoid that they can't live a normal life, but that's where we are.

People who think a rifle is a good choice for protecting against home invaders are idiots. They refuse to consider what happens if A) they miss or B) the fact that the slug can pass through the intended target and go right through the wall(s) behind them. From a car seat, it's tricky, but it does happen, although I haven't heard of a legal gun owner using one in this way around here. Maybe in the mountains or a place where other dangerous predators can attack, but not here.

 

[jinjuku]

Here's a good example of another problem: poop policing and incompetent courts. Watch it all the way through for the irony...

 

[highfigh]

Here's a good example of another problem: poop policing and incompetent courts. Watch it all the way through for the irony...

WRT the courts, it's not always incompetence, sometimes it's the state legislatures who write the rules for bail/bond and releasing suspects, as well as the defense attorneys who know how to get their clients out because of technicalities.

MKE just had a situation where a 17 year old shot & killed a girl who was in a car with others who were trying to find a graduation party in the area. He had been held on charges of killing someone else for almost a year, but since a 'speedy trial' couldn't be held, he was released without bail. After the amount of time he was in jail, it means he was 16 when he allegedly killed the first victim.

This shooting happened less than four blocks from my house.

17-Year-Old Homicide Suspect Was Already Facing Charges For Killing Another Person

A 17-year-old homicide suspect accused of shooting an honor student to death had been freed without bail despi...

www.seehafernews.com

The guy who drove through the crowd during the parade had been released with low bail amounts several times, yet he was able to kill six and injure more than 60. And plead 'not guilty'.

Milwaukee PD is down roughly 500 officers- it's no surprise that crime has risen to insane levels.

 

[SithZedi]

NYC is heading down the same spiral. There are many "good cops" that cannot stomach the turnstile machine that is the legal system now. Question: Who does this hurt the most? The poor sections of the city where crime is highest. Also, the new recruits that will replace them are being hired with new Woke qualification standards.
That leads to the practice of policing according to political correctness. They will look the other way or not enforce the law if given scenario will looks bad to the media or their superiors. Plenty of evidence of this in the US as well as the UK.

Exclusive | NYPD exodus: Police on pace to quit, retire in record numbers

More than 1,500 NYPD officers have either resigned or retired so far this year – on pace to be the biggest exodus of officers since the statistics have been available.

nypost.com

 

[Trell]

NYC is heading down the same spiral. There are many "good cops" that cannot stomach the turnstile machine that is the legal system now. Question: Who does this hurt the most? The poor sections of the city where crime is highest. Also, the new recruits that will replace them are being hired with new Woke qualification standards.
That leads to the practice of policing according to political correctness. They will look the other way or not enforce the law if given scenario will looks bad to the media or their superiors. Plenty of evidence of this in the US as well as the UK.

Exclusive | NYPD exodus: Police on pace to quit, retire in record numbers

More than 1,500 NYPD officers have either resigned or retired so far this year – on pace to be the biggest exodus of officers since the statistics have been available.

nypost.com

"Woke" as in Black people should not have to fear (with good reason) for their life when stopped by the police?

 

[highfigh]

"Woke" as in Black people should not have to fear (with good reason) for their life when stopped by the police?

Do you actually know how many times this happens and why? Living in your country, you probably couldn't discuss this easily with an American cop and I doubt you would believe them anyway, but the fact is, if someone is pulled over while driving or detained in some way, they're very safe as long as there's no struggle. The media don't make that known, only that "another Black person was viciously killed by a dirty, rotten cop". They also report less about Whites who are killed by the police. Many of those killed by the police die in 'suicide by cop' situations.

A former neighbor was shot six times in an attempted convenience store robbery while he was off-duty- he shot the other guy twice, killing him. The first thing done by the family of the 'victim'? They went on the news and shouted that it was a racially-motivated killing. That ended as soon as they showed Wayne's photo- he's Black, too.

Did you see this?

2 Southern California police officers were killed while trying to protect a family, El Monte mayor says

Two beloved El Monte police officers were killed Tuesday while responding to a possible stabbing at a motel, officials in the Southern California city said.

www.cnn.com

Nobody should need to fear being killed by the police, but look at the data, don't just post what you read and see in the media.

People are volatile and often unpredictable- that causes far too many deaths and when the ones who act impulsively are able to get guns, someone will end up shot. They may buy a gun to use as intimidation, but they're far to willing to squeeze off a few rounds. Or, a lot more than a few.

This incident didn't involve Black people, but the shooter clearly has some kind of mental defect.

Milwaukee man shot 40+ times, 80+ gunshot wounds, chase led to homicide charges

Jose Davila-Gali of Milwaukee is charged with first-degree intentional homicide for the May 15 murder of Juan Luis Estela Ortiz, shot more than 40 times, suffering more than 80 gunshot wounds. Prosecutors say both Davila-Gali's gun and his truck connect him to the crime.

www.fox6now.com

 

[SithZedi]

"Woke" as in Black people should not have to fear (with good reason) for their life when stopped by the police?

Society will get no where if we start with the assumption that "all" police are racists. If a criminal activity or action is taking place the police should act to protect the victim and enforce the law no matter what anyone looks like. It is a horror when you get a bad policing action, especially if it is proven to be racial. Bad police should be punished for it to the full extent of the law.

This doesn't mean that the police force should be defunded or trained to look the other way or stand down if a "good cop" detects criminal activity. These are the rules of engagement in most of the major cities in the US and the crime stats reflect it.

If there are solutions that have worked in the major US cities I would welcome hearing them..

 

[highfigh]

Considering the strict gun control, this surprised me-

Sweden’s Brutal Gang Problem: Here’s What Officials Blame It On

The chances of men aged between 15 and 29 getting shot in Sweden were ten times higher than their counterparts in Germany, a 2018 study found, according to The Economist.

www.forbes.com

 

[Trell]

Considering the strict gun control, this surprised me-

Sweden’s Brutal Gang Problem: Here’s What Officials Blame It On

The chances of men aged between 15 and 29 getting shot in Sweden were ten times higher than their counterparts in Germany, a 2018 study found, according to The Economist.

www.forbes.com

Yup, and many weapons are smuggled into Sweden. Part of that from leftover weapons from the war in the Balkans.

The Swedish police has a laughable bad record for solving murders.

Licensed arms and ammunition has to be safely locked away, and have a good reason to have them along with training. It’s very easy to loose the license for even minor infractions.

Handguns are forbidden in general.

What we have is problems with gangs with (often) immigrant background

 

[highfigh]

Yup, and many weapons are smuggled into Sweden. Part of that from leftover weapons from the war in the Balkans.

The Swedish police has a laughable bad record for solving murders.

Licensed arms and ammunition has to be safely locked away, and have a good reason to have them along with training. It’s very easy to loose the license for even minor infractions.

Handguns are forbidden in general.

What we have is problems with gangs with (often) immigrant background

Forbidden and yet, still possessed and used.

How tightly controlled is the Swedish border?

 

[jinjuku]

"Woke" as in Black people should not have to fear (with good reason) for their life when stopped by the police?

You are putting words into his mouth. That's not what he's getting at. Look at the shitshow that San Francisco just voted out of office.

Chesa Boudin with all the progressive, reformative, justice ideas made for an absolute disaster.

I'm going to tell you to tread lightly on the inferring someone is racist.

 

[Trell]

Forbidden and yet, still possessed and used.

How tightly controlled is the Swedish border?

Just because one can get weapons illegally is my reason to abolish current gun laws.

Sweden is member of the Schengen area so border checks are generally minimal at borders with other Schengen members.

 

[Trell]

You are putting words into his mouth. That's not what he's getting at. Look at the shitshow that San Francisco just voted out of office.

Chesa Boudin with all the progressive, reformative, justice ideas made for an absolute disaster.

I'm going to tell you to tread lightly on the inferring someone is racist.

Now you are putting words in my mouth.

The US laws and regulations of weapons are a shitshow.

 

[highfigh]

You are putting words into his mouth. That's not what he's getting at. Look at the shitshow that San Francisco just voted out of office.

Chesa Boudin with all the progressive, reformative, justice ideas made for an absolute disaster.

I'm going to tell you to tread lightly on the inferring someone is racist.

I don't know if you're aware of Boidin's parents and adoptive parents-

Read the link, but the title of the section in the link should tell you something-

"Chesa Boudin Family Details"

https://www.mixedarticle.com/chesa-boudin-parents-today

 

[highfigh]

Just because one can get weapons illegally is my reason to abolish current gun laws.

Sweden is member of the Schengen area so border checks are generally minimal at borders with other Schengen members.

And how well is that working?