S
shadyJ
Speaker of the House
Staff member
READ: Sigberg Audio 10D Subwoofer Review
"Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment – not marketing slogans"
READ: Sigberg Audio 10D Subwoofer Review
BoredSysAdmin
Audioholic Slumlord
I am most curious how James would rate this sub value, given its hefty price of nearly $3800.
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everettT
Audioholic Spartan
If the distortion numbers are as low as the prototypes, it should measure and sound very good.
TLS Guy
Audioholic Jedi
I think the real take home here is that this is really the first system of speakers and sub to be designed as a package.
One of the whole issues with subs, is that the crossover is off the shelf, with all the problems that entails.
However when you look at the measurements you did on the speakers and this sub, then you can see that this sub can be set to make a perfect crossover with the Sigberg speakers. This is a big point.
It is clear that if you used the Sigberg speakers with a couple of these subs, you would have a very powerful compact audio system that gives no quarter to large passive systems like the Perlisten speakers. The fact has to be regarded in my view as a landmark design in the history of audio in the home. This is the future.
If I were asked by a friend for a state of the art audio AV system, these Sigberg speakers and subs would go straight to the top of the list for a multitude of reasons.
This design team are really moving the needle forward. This will encourage people to consider and install, a top notch audio or AV system, and still keep the interior designers at bay. This has been an advance required for some time.
What is needed now is a good compact pre/pro with a discrete profile and we have the complete package. I bet this system will be good enough the pre/pro can that Audyssey, Dirac, etcetera, can be dispensed with.
One of the whole issues with subs, is that the crossover is off the shelf, with all the problems that entails.
However when you look at the measurements you did on the speakers and this sub, then you can see that this sub can be set to make a perfect crossover with the Sigberg speakers. This is a big point.
It is clear that if you used the Sigberg speakers with a couple of these subs, you would have a very powerful compact audio system that gives no quarter to large passive systems like the Perlisten speakers. The fact has to be regarded in my view as a landmark design in the history of audio in the home. This is the future.
If I were asked by a friend for a state of the art audio AV system, these Sigberg speakers and subs would go straight to the top of the list for a multitude of reasons.
This design team are really moving the needle forward. This will encourage people to consider and install, a top notch audio or AV system, and still keep the interior designers at bay. This has been an advance required for some time.
What is needed now is a good compact pre/pro with a discrete profile and we have the complete package. I bet this system will be good enough the pre/pro can that Audyssey, Dirac, etcetera, can be dispensed with.
BoredSysAdmin
Audioholic Slumlord
I agree with James it's a niche product, and there isn't much competition in this specific case; maybe only Dynaudio 18s would fill the same niche. I could see people would be wary of a 47" tall SVS PC-4000 monster but in reality, it takes very similar floor space (16.5" circle vs. 14" x 16" rectangle.), but the SVS product delivers a copious amount of lower bass.
p.s: For 2-ohm load presented by two 4ohm subs wired in parallel, I've found one source which says FA501 should be able to deliver 400w at 2ohm
p.s: For 2-ohm load presented by two 4ohm subs wired in parallel, I've found one source which says FA501 should be able to deliver 400w at 2ohm
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J
jeffca
Junior Audioholic
Are you tripping? A $3.8K 10" sub? And it's a wooden cab, not some great new substance?
If what you are looking for is low end that takes up the same room as this box, the Rythmik Audio L12 is the ticket. It costs less than $600 (w/shipping) and is a servo sub. Given that it is a servo and has more driver area, why would anyone buy this? It will sound as good or better over its entire life time of use.
Also, nothing against the Hypex plate amp at it's core, but that amp costs about $400 or so retail at Madisound. Hey, they made a great cabinet. As to the bought-in driver, with which I have no interest in figuring that out its provenance, it can't cost more than $400 retail. How do you justify this price for what is being offered? Especially when the company is dealing directly with the OEM suppliers and buying them directly for what Madisound pays for them? About 2/3 of what I'd stated.
Hey, did they write some software? Who cares. That doesn't offset that fact that this should cost not more than $1K.
Bass is about moving air not just modulating it. My thought is that if you buy this subwoofer for $3.8K, please, do enjoy being a moron.
If what you are looking for is low end that takes up the same room as this box, the Rythmik Audio L12 is the ticket. It costs less than $600 (w/shipping) and is a servo sub. Given that it is a servo and has more driver area, why would anyone buy this? It will sound as good or better over its entire life time of use.
Also, nothing against the Hypex plate amp at it's core, but that amp costs about $400 or so retail at Madisound. Hey, they made a great cabinet. As to the bought-in driver, with which I have no interest in figuring that out its provenance, it can't cost more than $400 retail. How do you justify this price for what is being offered? Especially when the company is dealing directly with the OEM suppliers and buying them directly for what Madisound pays for them? About 2/3 of what I'd stated.
Hey, did they write some software? Who cares. That doesn't offset that fact that this should cost not more than $1K.
Bass is about moving air not just modulating it. My thought is that if you buy this subwoofer for $3.8K, please, do enjoy being a moron.
everettT
Audioholic Spartan
Quality bass and integration is more important then moving copious amounts of air. These aren't being marketed as an ultra low bass subwoofer but one that makes integration with their speakers seamless.
Calling people morons because you can't see what the benefits are is somewhat ironic, don't you think?
S
shadyJ
Speaker of the House
Staff member
Comparing the Rythmik L12 to the Sigberg 10D is like comparing a Nissan Versa to a BMW M5 Competition. Yeah, they are both four-door sedans, but that is where the similarities end. You are comparing an entry-level sub to a high-end sub. The people who want nice things aren't shopping at the bottom of Rythmik's barrel. This is like saying anyone who spends more than $30 for a watch is a fool, because a cheap Casio will tell time as good as any higher-end brand.
We always get these inane criticisms that consumer goods shouldn't cost more than the raw materials they are comprised of (someone should add this type of comment to the Audioholics drinking game). Even if the 10D only totaled the cost of its raw component cost, it would still be more than $1k. Audio equipment manufacturers typically need to charge 5x the cost of the component cost to make money on the product. What do you think Rythmik is paying for raw component cost for their subs as a ratio of the final cost? Likely not as much as Sigberg. Sigberg isn't made in China either. By the way, two 10" drivers have significantly more surface area than a single 12", and these drivers will have a lot more linear excursion as well.
ryanosaur
Audioholic Overlord
I thought it already was.
This is clearly a challenge to the value of the Subwoofer and it's design principles.
Oh ya... and the link wasn't live when the review thread was posted:
E'rybody in the club gettin' Crunk!
BoredSysAdmin
Audioholic Slumlord
Dual 10" drivers do have higher woofer area (14") than a single 12" - 154 vs. 113 sq in) - yes it's "significantly: more but not hugely so. I could not L12's driver excursion specs, but Rhythmic says it's high excursion driver
I disagree with the analogy, I've tried to find better analogy, but the best I could find is Mazda MX5 vs Maserati Quattroporte GT. One is cheap and cheerful compact sports car, the other highly overpriced European Hi-End exotica. Yes. the later one is much faster and ostentatious, but would I ever pay over 100k for a Quattroporte ?
I know I am beating dead horse and you pretty much already said so yourself in ranking this sub at a piss-poor value ranking in your own review, despite it's excellent (within its size limitations) performance.
S
shadyJ
Speaker of the House
Staff member
I didn't at all say that this sub is a piss-poor value, and I don't at all believe that it is. But value is dependent on circumstances. Regarding your car analogy, if you aren't at least upper-middle class, an MX5 makes a lot more sense, but if you have plenty of money, which car would you rather have? I would go for the Maserati, thank you very much. Actually, for that amount of money, I would go for a Lexus LC500 or a Porsche 911.
lovinthehd
Audioholic Jedi
While I think car analogies suck in general for audio, I don't see $3.8k for a dual opposed 10" like this being a high performance car equivalent either. If small form factor is needed and you had the matching speakers, could I suppose have more value. No slouch but I'd never buy one.
BoredSysAdmin
Audioholic Slumlord
As I said, I've tried to find a decent car analogy, but it doesn't seem to exist. As for having a higher disposable income, I have a long-time client who's long retired, and his day "job" is managing his own money and making some investments. His net worth is double to triple digits in millions. Do you suppose his car is Maybach or Ferrari? No, he drives Audi and his wife, a Mini. Nobody likes to pay than they feel they should.
My point on value isn't about what a person can afford or not.MX5 is a great little car in its segment period, regardless of a person's income.
p.s:
You won't catch me driving LC500 ever. I'd much rather spend my 100k on an M5 or, if I suffer a moment of insanity, maybe Lucid Air.
My point on value isn't about what a person can afford or not.MX5 is a great little car in its segment period, regardless of a person's income.
p.s:
You won't catch me driving LC500 ever. I'd much rather spend my 100k on an M5 or, if I suffer a moment of insanity, maybe Lucid Air.
TLS Guy
Audioholic Jedi
You have no idea what has been achieved here.
The biggest barrier to a fine audio and AV in the home as been aesthetics and cost.
This system is in my view the first to offer a realistic solution
If a customer bought 7 of those very compact and speakers and a couple of those subs, he would have one of the finest AV systems on the planet.
Now lets suppose Sigberg Audio developed and marketed that coaxial driver in a small sealed box for ceiling mounting, that would be icing on the cake.
I don't think there is anything else as compact as that, with so few compromises available today, and certainly at that price point.
This is the type of approach to widen the acceptability of very high quality audio in the home.
I can tell you that the experience of excellent AV systems in the home is an enormously pleasurable one, that is denied to the many by the limitations sited above. This is a system designed to beak these barriers.
H
highfigh
Seriously, I have no life.
Oh, a DIY 'expert', eh?
Ever hear about having drivers designed specifically for the application? That costs more. Prototyping, re-design, re-testing, setting up the facility, etc- it all costs.
Go ahead and design something that seems to work as well and no, we don't want opinions.
lovinthehd
Audioholic Jedi
Let's see playing with some numbers with TLS' idea...4 x 6558 for the 7 active speakers (since they're sold as pairs, but maybe Sigberg will cut you a deal for a single?) so thats 26,232 at current Sigberg site conversion (or 22,953 if you get the single speaker deal). Four 10D subs would be 14,992 (and they'd still be a bit weak at VLF but could be somewhat room dependent and desired spl). Then you need an appropriate pre-pro...at this level may as well go for the Trinnov Altitude 16 at $16,000. So now you are in for 57,224 (or 53,945) for a 7.1 system...and in my case would need to hire an electrician to place closer outlets for the surrounds/rear surrounds/subs so add another chunk in my case. Would probably sound very nice but that nice? Aesthetics are still are fairly typical, just a bunch of black boxes still. Forgot about appropriate speaker stands/mounts....that'd add some more too. I don't think I'd go this direction particularly....
ryanosaur
Audioholic Overlord
We are definitely outside the realm of chump change. Nowhere was this expressed to be a budget friendly solution.
But replace that Trinnov with the mythical HTP-1 and save yourself 12-large... and it's a little better!
But more seriously, we have before us a unique approach to solving a problem. We know we can make the more traditional offering work. Let's face it, this may well be better.
For the initial effort at designing and bringing such a system to market, sadly, it is going to be expensive... and it is. Moreover, add in the costing for covering all shipping and customs fees, a very worthwhile service, but the lily gets gilded a bit.
The real benefit comes when other companies see the efficacy of an approach like this, take the concept up and carry it forward. Competition and a changing marketplace may well see cost come down to something more affordable for those of us that might only earn $50-60K per year!
Looking ahead, we've seen the Sigberg Manta development, and there has been a tease of a possible 3-way W-C-W design using the same drivers as the previously reviewed SBS.1 but adding a 2nd woofer above the Coax.
Perhaps we see a Sub that can play lower, too.
Also of note, we have before us a pattern for potential DIY ingenuity. However one wishes to approach the concept, now that it is in front of us, I guarantee somebody is already looking at how they can roll their own Siggy-Style Blunts.
With MINI DSP 10x10, for example, Amps of choice, and copious amounts of elbow grease and MDF dust... options can abound!(Whether it's worth the effort or not is a different story, but I know you, Lovin', can appreciate a good opportunity to promote the DIY path.)
I stand by my excitement for @Sigberg Audio and what they are doing! Even though I can't throw down for it, I do wish for their success as well as continued innovation and product development.
lovinthehd
Audioholic Jedi
Oh I wish Sigberg success and expansion of their offerings, I'm just not a likely customer for them for this cost/performance level. So what makes the Monolith pre-pro better than Trinnov?
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