Go republicans! Let's restrict womens bodies again!

[Dan]

You hit on the fundamental disconnect with those Conservative arguments.

For most issues, conservatives say keep government out of any issue involving personal freedoms. This applies to speech, religion, gun ownership, taxes, business regulations, etc. But with abortion and birth control, they want the government to control what individuals can choose. I don't understand this.

I also fail to understand how one state can enforce it's laws beyond the state line. That will never stand up to court challenge.

I saw an article addressing this last point which I can no longer find. I found it hard to follow. It had to do with an old judicial concept called dormant commerce clause about issues between states like this. There is a current case in court about whether California can ban pork imports from states that do not provide adequate living space for it's pigs, mainly from the midwest states. Apparently conservatives felt states could not tell other states what to do under a principle whose name escapes me now. That is they felt that way until the abortion situation. Apparently this pig case may have have a lot to do with the future of these interstate abortion issues. I'm just a doctor, don't ask me to explain. Perhaps Mr. Clark could weigh in?

 

[Pogre]

many 'shades of gray' on this issue IMO.......

I dunno. This is about bodily autonomy. How would you feel if the government told you that John Doe over there needs a kidney and you have 2 good ones so we're gonna force you to use your body to keep John alive. Would you argue there are gray areas with that?

 

[Dan]

 

[mtrycrafts]

I need to invest in a burka manufacturer. Do you know of one in the US?

 

[mtrycrafts]

....

I also fail to understand how one state can enforce it's laws beyond the state line. That will never stand up to court challenge.

You really think? Which court?

 

[Hetfield]

You really think? Which court?

With the 3 dopes the con man appointed anything can happen with this court. I wouldn't be total surprised if this court took the right of women to vote away.
People got complacent, they thought it was fun to elect Republican presidents, and a fool that last one was. Well now the reality is about to sink in on just what an impact this court is gonna have.
We are all gonna suffer. Some more than others.

 

[GO-NAD!]

You hit on the fundamental disconnect with those Conservative arguments.

For most issues, conservatives say keep government out of any issue involving personal freedoms. This applies to speech, religion, gun ownership, taxes, business regulations, etc. But with abortion and birth control, they want the government to control what individuals can choose. I don't understand this.

I also fail to understand how one state can enforce it's laws beyond the state line. That will never stand up to court challenge.

It's because those opposed to abortion claim that a fetus is a person and to destroy one is murder. So, the right to privacy doesn't apply. Simple as that.

It's self-serving claptrap, but that's what it boils down to.

 

[lovinthehd]

to the best of my knowledge 'Roe v Wade' is not a law, rather a precedent. Regardless, last I looked there was a rather centrist Democrat that voted with the Repubs yesterday

Manchin is a republican in democrat clothing.

 

[lovinthehd]

I saw an article addressing this last point which I can no longer find. I found it hard to follow. It had to do with an old judicial concept called dormant commerce clause about issues between states like this. There is a current case in court about whether California can ban pork imports from states that do not provide adequate living space for it's pigs, mainly from the midwest states. Apparently conservatives felt states could not tell other states what to do under a principle whose name escapes me now. That is they felt that way until the abortion situation. Apparently this pig case may have have a lot to do with the future of these interstate abortion issues. I'm just a doctor, don't ask me to explain. Perhaps Mr. Clark could weigh in?

Makes me think of how they perverted the Mann Act at times.....

 

[lovinthehd]

And of course

 

[Dude#1279435]

Sort of on the fence on this but also the idea that's been floated out there about being prevented from traveling to another state for an abortion seems silly. Also contraception and birth control? Plus claiming to be pro-life with conservative media's record on covid doesn't equate to much IMO.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sort of on the fence on this but also the idea that's been floated out there about being prevented from traveling to another state for an abortion seems silly. Also contraception and birth control? Plus claiming to be pro-life with conservative media's record on covid doesn't equate to much IMO.

So you're a female and have a problem with this? You sure sound like a typical "guy". Then again conservative pro-life ends simply at exit from the vagina for the most part, they're relatively useless/clueless after that, even if their "special" sperm is involved.

 

[Dude#1279435]

So you're a female and have a problem with this? You sure sound like a typical "guy". Then again conservative pro-life ends simply at exit from the vagina for the most part, they're relatively useless/clueless after that, even if their "special" sperm is involved.

You got me there. Think I'd have left it at "heartbeat." I think the conservative agenda is to reduce pre-marital sex, increase marriage certificates, god, and a homogenized America or something. Interesting to see what happens when that 40 year-old mother of three tests postive..... I'll leave it at state's rights I guess, but also interesting to see what happens with the level of abortions in pro-choice states.

I'd guess conservatives will become nationalists on the matter if they gain enough power. It's a theocracy that scares me more than any other type of socialism since it's done in the name of God.

 

[NINaudio]

Sort of on the fence on this

You don't like the idea of an abortion, don't f'ing get one. But your feelings on it shouldn't impact anyone else's access to the procedure.

 

[Pogre]

You got me there. Think I'd have left it at "heartbeat." I think the conservative agenda is to reduce pre-marital sex, increase marriage certificates, god, and a homogenized America or something. Interesting to see what happens when that 40 year-old mother of three tests postive..... I'll leave it at state's rights I guess, but also interesting to see what happens with the level of abortions in pro-choice states.

I'd guess conservatives will become nationalists on the matter if they gain enough power. It's a theocracy that scares me more than any other type of socialism since it's done in the name of God.

The crazy part... the Bible doesn't really take a stance on it. In fact it can be argued that it's pro abortion since God has actually ordered it...

 

[GO-NAD!]

The crazy part... the Bible doesn't really take a stance on it. In fact it can be argued that it's pro abortion since God has actually ordered it...

Indeed.
Banning abortion is not supported by the Bible | The Star

 

[Pogre]

Indeed.
Banning abortion is not supported by the Bible | The Star

Exactly. I don't know where the theists have come up with abortion being against god's will, because it's not mentioned in the bible as being wrong, and in fact has been ordered by god. Like this infidelity test...

"Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

The "curse" being "poison" added to the water... "dust from the tabernacle floor".

So if your wife cheats then god will force an abortion?? How about when he orders the genocide of other tribes and orders men to kill all the women who have known men, keep the virgins and slice open the bellies of the pregnant women? That too sounds like abortion to me.

 

[Hetfield]

Exactly. I don't know where the theists have come up with abortion being against god's will, because it's not mentioned in the bible as being wrong, and in fact has been ordered by god. Like this infidelity test...

"Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

The "curse" being "poison" added to the water... "dust from the tabernacle floor".

So if your wife cheats then god will force an abortion?? How about when he orders the genocide of other tribes and orders men to kill all the women who have known men, keep the virgins and slice open the bellies of the pregnant women? That too sounds like abortion to me.

the bible is really fucked up. maybe I should read it sometime just to see the insanity in there.

 

[jinjuku]

I don't get it. As a society we've agreed that there is a point of viability and prior to that point abortion is an option.

I think the thing that would change all this is as technology advances the viability point will change and so would the options. Up to the point that Sci-Fi has written about before and that would be exo-wombs.

 

[Pogre]

the bible is really fucked up. maybe I should read it sometime just to see the insanity in there.

Oh, you have no idea. Some of it is downright abominable. Creates a real "us vs them" mentality. Not only good for misogyny tho, it's a great handbook for bigotry too.