Returning my SR6015 and just ordered the Emo

[Pandaman617]

 

[Pandaman617]

It’s cool they give you a little military discount, better than nothing. It’s a bit more than I wanted to spend but I can’t imagine getting into 7.4.6 for any cheaper. I don’t have high hopes for that amp but it’s only going to drive the 3 height channels so I’m sure it’s more than adequate. From what I can see it’s basically an AT-300 but in English if that makes sense.

 

[Hetfield]

Boy I didn't even know Emotiva had a 13.2 processor and it's only 899.99! Got me thinking as I use a Denon X3400H as my processor. I love it but I'd like to go to a real processor.
Anyway that's a shame what happened with the Marantz. Nice piece but if it's not working it's useless.

 

[Pandaman617]

Boy I didn't even know Emotiva had a 13.2 processor and it's only 899.99! Got me thinking as I use a Denon X3400H as my processor. I love it but I'd like to go to a real processor.
Anyway that's a shame what happened with the Marantz. Nice piece but if it's not working it's useless.

Yeah it’s a bummer man, so it’s $999.99 originally but I get a 10% off military discount

 

[Hetfield]

Yeah it’s a bummer man, so it’s $999.99 originally but I get a 10% off military discount

Oh right, 999.99 but still a great price for something like that. Can't wait to hear what you think.

 

[Pandaman617]

For sure man, as soon as it arrives and I get it setup I’ll post my thoughts. I’ve never had a separates setup so I’m pretty excited to try something new

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'd like to go to a real processor.

What's a "REAL" processor or real "separates"?

Just make something cheap and take out the amps?

Something that doesn't have any amps inside it?

Something that has the best THD+N/SINAD measurements?

Something that has a 5YR warranty and good customer support?

Seems like a good topic of discussion that deserves a thread of its own.

@TLS Guy hates AVRs (hates those internal amps) and loves processors (no internal amps). I wonder what he thinks of these cheap processors from Outlaw, Emotiva, Tonewinner, etc.?

 

[Hetfield]

What's a "REAL" processor?

Something that doesn't have any amps inside it?

Something that has the best THD+N/SINAD measurements?

Something that has a 5YR warranty and good customer support?

Seems like a good topic of discussion that deserves a thread of its own.

@TLS Guy hates AVRs (hates those internal amps) and loves processors (no internal amps). I wonder what he thinks of these cheap processors from Outlaw, Emotiva, Tonewinner, etc.?

I knew I shouldn't have used that phrase. When I wrote it, I knew someone would take issue with it. A dedicated Home theater processor without an amp yes. The receivers that can be used as a processor are not marketed as or mentioned by the manufacturer as a "processor". I apologize to anyone I may have offended with my wording.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I knew I shouldn't have used that phrase. When I wrote it, I knew someone would take issue with it. A dedicated Home theater processor without an amp yes. The receivers that can be used as a processor are not marketed as or mentioned by the manufacturer as a "processor". I apologize to anyone I may have offended with my wording.

No apologies needed. Just discussion. Many people think the same about what is a "separates" or "processor".

Simply just take out the amps and it magically becomes a "separates" or "processor"?

But is that the ONLY requirement? Removing the amps?

Didn't Moon Audio or Sim Audio or somebody take a Denon AVR-2308 AVR, removed the internal amps, and sell the new component as a separates processor for $18,000?

 

[PENG]

No apologies needed. Just discussion. Many people think the same about what is a "separates" or "processor".

Simply just take out the amps and it magically becomes a "separates" or "processor"?

But is that the ONLY requirement? Removing the amps?

Didn't Moon Audio or Sim Audio or somebody take a Denon AVR-2308 AVR, removed the internal amps, and sell the new component as a separates processor for $18,000?

Just about, but I guess just a little more than that... For TLSG, since he has the AV7705 series, it would be the removal of the power amps from the SR7015, and then add parts and circuitry for the pseudo balanced I/Os as well as swap out part of the power supplies, with a presumably better one. And I know you know what pseudo means in this case.

 

[Danzilla31]

I'm looking forward to your thoughts on this purchase this should be a fun thread!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just about, but I guess just a little more than that... For TLSG, since he has the AV7705 series, it would be the removal of the power amps from the SR7015, and then add parts and circuitry for the pseudo balanced I/Os as well as swap out part of the power supplies, with a presumably better one. And I know you know what pseudo means in this case.

3 of the biggest reasons I buy ANYTHING include 1) aesthetics, 2) pride of ownership and 3) warranty/support.

If something doesn't look good and/or if my peers (friends, other audiophiles) have absolutely no respect for it and thinks it's cheap imitation cheese or if the warranty/support is subpar, there's no way I'm buying it. But this is where people's opinions will differ.

What looks good to you? XLR connectors?

What makes you proud to own or feel better? Big brand names and long-time well-established companies? Do you need someone to write a LABEL and declare that something is a "Separates" or "Processor"?

Is warranty/support that important to you? Do you care if the warranty is 1YR vs 2YR vs 5YR vs 7YR vs 20YR?

 

[TLS Guy]

What's a "REAL" processor or real "separates"?

Just make something cheap and take out the amps?

Something that doesn't have any amps inside it?

Something that has the best THD+N/SINAD measurements?

Something that has a 5YR warranty and good customer support?

Seems like a good topic of discussion that deserves a thread of its own.

@TLS Guy hates AVRs (hates those internal amps) and loves processors (no internal amps). I wonder what he thinks of these cheap processors from Outlaw, Emotiva, Tonewinner, etc.?

First of all, I have no experience with those units. I do know that EMO reliability is suspect and that after market support especially when the warranty runs out has a reputation for being atrocious. So personally I would not touch EMO products with a barge pole.

An AVP should cost less than an AVR. It is marketing issues that they don't. When active speakers with DSP become the rule, which they will, as the technical advantages and benefits are enormous, then I bet you will see AVPs cost less than AVRs.

What I really want is reliability. I am not tempted to buy a really expensive AVP because of obsolescence. I am on my fourth generation AVP in sixteen years!

I bought the AV 7705 because of buying a 4K TV and installed Atmos speakers. Support is also an issue. These complex units unfortunately require the support of a major player, and unfortunately put smaller players at a massive disadvantage. A lot of this can be laid at the door of HDMI, with it evolving specifications and HDCP codes.

So far the Marantz AV 7705 is performing well, and is still supported by firmware upgrades with improved performance. When I first installed it, it was buggy, the worst being occasional potentially speaker busting pops. A firmware upgrade fixed that. There have been other convenience upgrades. Last night there was 12 minute firmware upgrade. Much to my surprise this has fixed the slight noise issue. So when I shut off the AV 7705 last night, I noted the room was dead silent and I could not hear the previous very low level hiss. I have confirmed that today. How you can fix an issue like this with a firmware upgrade is way beyond my pay grade. I suppose they must have been able to change a gain structure some place.

So I will keep the AV 7705 until replacement is required for a significant change in technology, or it has to go to the recycling center. I should state that all my four Marantz AVPs are still working. The oldest is in storage as an emergency back up. Three are in use.

I do personally believe AVPs have a significant reliability advantage of AVRs, and I think you should expect that. So as the technology matures as it has, then the need for upgrades will become less of an issue. So we probably could well be at the point where AVPs are actually the more economic solution.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

First of all, I have no experience with those units. I do know that EMO reliability is suspect and that after market support especially when the warranty runs out has a reputation for being atrocious. So personally I would not touch EMO products with a barge pole.

An AVP should cost less than an AVR. It is marketing issues that they don't. When active speakers with DSP become the rule, which they will, as the technical advantages and benefits are enormous, then I bet you will see AVPs cost less than AVRs.

What I really want is reliability. I am not tempted to buy a really expensive AVP because of obsolescence. I am on my fourth generation AVP in sixteen years!

I bought the AV 7705 because of buying a 4K TV and installed Atmos speakers. Support is also an issue. These complex units unfortunately require the support of a major player, and unfortunately put smaller players at a massive disadvantage. A lot of this can be laid at the door of HDMI, with it evolving specifications and HDCP codes.

So far the Marantz AV 7705 is performing well, and is still supported by firmware upgrades with improved performance. When I first installed it, it was buggy, the worst being occasional potentially speaker busting pops. A firmware upgrade fixed that. There have been other convenience upgrades. Last night there was 12 minute firmware upgrade. Much to my surprise this has fixed the slight noise issue. So when I shut off the AV 7705 last night, I noted the room was dead silent and I could not hear the previous very low level hiss. I have confirmed that today. How you can fix an issue like this with a firmware upgrade is way beyond my pay grade. I suppose they must have been able to change a gain structure some place.

So I will keep the AV 7705 until replacement is required for a significant change in technology, or it has to go to the recycling center. I should state that all my four Marantz AVPs are still working. The oldest is in storage as an emergency back up. Three are in use.

I do personally believe AVPs have a significant reliability advantage of AVRs, and I think you should expect that. So as the technology matures as it has, then the need for upgrades will become less of an issue. So we probably could well be at the point where AVPs are actually the more economic solution.

Reliability and support are definitely major factors.

On the topic of reliability, is simply removing the amps out of the chassis the salient factor of reliability?

Are there other factors that are just as important for reliability? Like the engineering/design/implementation? The company who is doing the R&D and manufacturing and quality control?

 

[Pandaman617]

Oh geez what I have started. I do have an older 7.1 Emo Pre/Pro that’s worked great for years as well as a number of their older power amps. There’s definitely better quality equipment but for my meager budget it’s what I could afford. That being said I do keep my expectations realistic within my own budget. I did have an older 3 channel amp from them that crapped out 7 months after the warranty expired and they still fixed it for free. Im not saying that’s the norm by any means but in my own experience I only have positive things to say about them, now that being said I’m not saying there isn’t an abundance of negative feedback in terms of their post warranty service as it is one thing that concerns me. Either way it’s on its way and we’ll see what happens

 

[Pogre]

I knew I shouldn't have used that phrase. When I wrote it, I knew someone would take issue with it. A dedicated Home theater processor without an amp yes. The receivers that can be used as a processor are not marketed as or mentioned by the manufacturer as a "processor". I apologize to anyone I may have offended with my wording.

You dirty sumbish! Now look what you've done!

Now that said, I just don't see much in the way of any advantages to using a standalone processor over an AVR if you're using a separate amp either way. I am not entirely unsympathetic to @TLS Guy's position on how they keep cramming more and more tech into the same box with AVRs along with all those amps. They do run pretty warm and the more you cram into one package the more that can go wrong with it. I think his biggest problems are with the amp sections?

If you're just using an AVR as a processor tho you can turn on eco mode and it'll run much, much cooler without pinching power from the speakers. It seems to me like AVRs have all the same functionality, similar or even less distortion, for less money, and no more problems with processing than many standalone processors.

 

[j_garcia]

I own / owned a few Emo amps and have no complaints. My old Pre/pro from them still going strong. My second pre/pro failed twice with the same issue and I went back to Marantz. IMO, pre/pro doesn't offer much advantage, but I like that it has less stuff going on inside since I am not using the amps.

 

[TLS Guy]

Reliability and support are definitely major factors.

On the topic of reliability, is simply removing the amps out of the chassis the salient factor of reliability?

Are there other factors that are just as important for reliability? Like the engineering/design/implementation? The company who is doing the R&D and manufacturing and quality control?

I think most of it comes down to removing the amps for a number of reasons.

A receiver has to power a lot of amps now. That makes the stress on the power supply much greater, as by far the greater proportion of the power goes to the amps. In addition the power supplies are under sized by a good margin. You can tell that as the power output goes down as you power up more amps. So there is voltage and current limitations from the power supplies.

The power amps are the major source of heat. Heat kills, and in a receiver case cooks the more fragile processing circuits.

However, probably the biggest reason is power transistor failure. One of the commonest reasons a receiver goes into protection is power transistor failure. Power transistor failure invariably results in DC offset, and that sends the whole receiver into shut down and the red light staying on.

As you add amps, you obviously have to increase the odds of a power transistor failure. There will be at least two power transistors in each power amp board. So if you have 9 power amps, that is at least 18 power transistors that anyone failing, will put you out of business.

It is ridiculous to maintain an AVR would be as reliable as an AVP. That just flies in the face of statistical odds and common sense.

 

[Pogre]

It is ridiculous to maintain an AVR would be as reliable as an AVP. That just flies in the face of statistical odds and common sense.

I agree. All else being equal an AVR has more going on inside and thus has more chances for something to go wrong.

I do however think an AVR is still pretty reliable in comparison if being used just as a prepro. With eco mode turned on they run much cooler and in general are not as expensive. I even took the fan off of mine after I got a separate amp because it only runs lukewarm now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I hope Bose comes out with an AVP with no amps.

Then I can start a thread titled, "Returning my Refurbished SR6015 and just ordered a Bose".