Tight, intense, affordable subs for a 1500sq ft music only room?

[WookieGR]

I throw up in my mouth the same as you do everytime someone posts a "what's the best sub" topic. This aint that if you allow it not to be.

I'm preparing for the worst. I have a 2 channel music room in development that I may or may not need subs for. I tentatively have a set of Philharmonic BMR Towers coming my way that are ported with 8" drivers. My gut tells me they won't hit hard and I'll need something else to supplement them. I just don't see 8" drivers knocking you on your ass no matter the talent behind their design. I was shooting for the monitors but was told, simply put... I couldn't get a set this year, and was forced to settle on towers if I wanted any Philharmonic speakers at all this year.

I've always built my own subs but for huge, loud, deep and ferocious home theater bass. Never smaller boxes just for tight, chest thumping music. Plus the cost difference between buying something like a 12" ported box vs making your own has a smaller value proposition so I build big.

I'm curious if there is a battle of the subs type thread out there that ranks all the 10's against each other, all the 12's and so on. Audioholics has a review of the Monoprice Monolith THX 10" and 12" subs that basically says the 10" isn't that much different than the 12" for music. Those seem like incredible values. So, If I were to get two of the 10" Monolith's, how would they compare to dual 10" SVS? Or dual 10" HSU etc... If I could a find a resource online I would certainly read it. Just reading random comments and reviews doesnt give me the side by side evaluations I'm looking for. I'm not looking for massive SPL either. I really don't want to crank the music extremely loud to get serious kick. Something closer to when a kick drum kicks, it actually freaking kicks. After some years in a short lived band and having gone to live shows, there's no home speaker that does that kind of punch and most subs give you shake, rattle and roll with their punch. I don't want to shake the house or glue down anything in this room. I suppose I have to tune the sub to specific frequencies.

My first instinct is to get two Monolith M-10 V2 10in THX Subs and live happily ever after. But years of programming has taught me that SVS subs are the way to go but they are costly.

Then, after research and reading forums spanning close to 20 years, the consensus is now that sealed subs are NOT for tighter cleaner more musical bass and everything everywhere all the time must now be ported. I don't have the luxury of just shooting an email off to a rep and having them send me whatever I want. I can't get poop to review or evaluate from anyone, I've tried. So here we are. Is it necessary to get dual 12" or even 15" just to have some real kick or can dual 10" do it? Is Monolith actually a good sub? Would an audiophile on a budget welcome dual Monolith 10in THX subs into their music only listening room?

 

[ryanosaur]

FWIW, I use my Claridy designed Outlaw's for music (ported/extended mode) almost all the time. Claridy did the v1 Monoliths, as well. By all accounts, performance expectations are met. It looks like the v2 are still their designs (Claridy).

If you think you will ever dig into Pipe Organ music or go spelunking the depths of Electronica, then look for something that can give you a strong 16Hz performance.

Somebody has already measured the Towers in their room and came up with a good 20Hz, according to them. Of course, if you want that house curve at all, even a little, then you'll want something more..

That Mono 12"v2 is -6dB at 17Hz ported, and 20Hz sealed. That seems like a strong contender.


But if you are really looking into any Music with infrasonic content... you gotta go bigger, badder, more bold.

That becomes a values-based decision for you. Again, most of these Subs you see us recommend will get the job done. Pay attention to group delay measurements where available. Time Domain issues just shouldn't even be a concern much anymore.

Cheers!

 

[Pogre]

HSU doesn't have a 10" and I think SVS only has one, the last model PB1000. Which is replaced by the 12" PB1000 Pro. I believe they do still sell the 10" tho, and the price isn't bad either. They don't have a sealed 10".

I really like what Monoprice has been doing and me being me would nudge you toward a pair of 12", but a pair of tens in a small music only room should be plenty. I vote a pair of Monoliths.

I'd toss the 10" RSL Speedwoofer in the mix, but they're out of stock right now. Anticipating more "soon".

The Speedwoofer 10S Subwoofer MKII - RSL Speakers

rslspeakers.com

 

[ryanosaur]

HSU doesn't have a 10" and I think SVS only has one, the last model PB1000. Which is replaced by the 12" PB1000 Pro. I believe they do still sell the 10" tho, and the price isn't bad either. They don't have a sealed 10".

I really like what Monoprice has been doing and me being me would nudge you toward a pair of 12", but a pair of tens in a small music only room should be plenty. I vote a pair of Monoliths.

I'd toss the 10" RSL Speedwoofer in the mix, but they're out of stock right now. Anticipating more "soon".

The Speedwoofer 10S Subwoofer MKII - RSL Speakers

rslspeakers.com

The Tower may dig deeper than that Speedwoofer. They say "now with 22hz extension" but don't say where that falls on the scal, -3 or -6dB or whatever.

 

[shadyJ]

The Monolith 10" and 12" are different, even for music. The 12" has considerably more mid-bass headroom. If you like your music loud, the 12" is the way to go. Either would be very good subs, and they certainly have excellent fidelity.

Here is the thing: you are adding them to a system with the Philharmonic BMR Towers which already have very good bass. Integration will be very important here so as not to end up with worse bass than the towers alone will provide. That is going to take some effort. I would only consider adding subs to that system if you like to listen at pretty loud levels. If you are interested in head-banging or blazing some electronic music at club levels, the BMR Towers may not be the best choice here. They aren't quite THX Reference level type speakers. On the other hand, if you aren't really after deafening levels, give them a chance without the subs, and if you see that you are pushing the woofer hard but are otherwise satisfied with the SPLs, then add subs. But maybe their bass headroom is enough for you as it is.

 

[Pogre]

The Tower may dig deeper than that Speedwoofer. They say "now with 22hz extension" but don't say where that falls on the scal, -3 or -6dB or whatever.

That's a really good point actually. Those BMRs dig deeper than typical towers of that size and number of drivers. Shady makes a good point too. I don't know that 10" subs would bring much to the table unless a guy just wants higher spl.

I'd go with 12s just to shore up for deep bass if anything, but might get away without subs at all for a lot of music. I know you're like me tho and listen to enough music with deep bass that I wouldn't want to go without a capable sub.

 

[WookieGR]

HSU doesn't have a 10" and I think SVS only has one, the last model PB1000. Which is replaced by the 12" PB1000 Pro. I believe they do still sell the 10" tho, and the price isn't bad either. They don't have a sealed 10".

The Speedwoofer 10S Subwoofer MKII - RSL Speakers

rslspeakers.com

I was really more using that as an example, I should have been more specific since I actually do know that already.

 

[Pogre]

Oh, and btw... I'm jelly of your BMR towers! I might have gotten them too if they were around when I bought my Sierras!

 

[ryanosaur]

@WookieGR
If you've got the chops for it, I'd look at modeling these:

Home

Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference Series HF Subwoofer 4 OhmThe Dayton Audio Reference Series RSS390HF-4 15" speakers take the quality and performance of the much acclaimed RS line into the subwoofer realm. As with the rest of the Reference Series, the main focus of these subwoofers is...

www.parts-express.com

...and looking at low tune options, build two, and Boom!

 

[WookieGR]

Oh, and btw... I'm jelly of your BMR towers! I might have gotten them too if they were around when I bought my Sierras!

I own them in spirit. I have not paid a deposit or received any confirmation the boat they're on hasn't sunk.

 

[ryanosaur]

I own them in spirit. I have not paid a deposit or received any confirmation the boat they're on hasn't sunk.

That's the next best thing!

 

[WookieGR]

@WookieGR
If you've got the chops for it, I'd look at modeling these:

Home

Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference Series HF Subwoofer 4 OhmThe Dayton Audio Reference Series RSS390HF-4 15" speakers take the quality and performance of the much acclaimed RS line into the subwoofer realm. As with the rest of the Reference Series, the main focus of these subwoofers is...

www.parts-express.com

...and looking at low tune options, build two, and Boom!

I've built 3 sonotubes with 15" Adire Audio subs back in the day. I've got two 18" Ultimax going my theater right now and was hoping to tame things a bit for the 14'x12' room these will go in. I am in all seriousness wanting to buy all items for the music room and not have to build anything. Except for the acoustic panels...

 

[WookieGR]

Sounds like I need to cool my jets on this one. I only needed a plan B in place instead of wasting tons of time picking subs after the I discover the towers are not good enough.

 

[ryanosaur]

I've built 3 sonotubes with 15" Adire Audio subs back in the day. I've got two 18" Ultimax going my theater right now and was hoping to tame things a bit for the 14'x12' room these will go in. I am in all seriousness wanting to buy all items for the music room and not have to build anything. Except for the acoustic panels...

This I can totally dig. The time investment is a serious commitment, especially if you want it finished nice.

 

[ryanosaur]

Sounds like I need to cool my jets on this one. I only needed a plan B in place instead of wasting tons of time picking subs after the I discover the towers are not good enough.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised. *fingers crossed.
I still think you should start with super minimal treatment too. If anything I would look at front wall absorption and some back wall diffusion first. Especially if you will have the “stuff of life” furnishings in-room when you set up.
You can always add more as needed.

 

[vader540is]

I throw up in my mouth the same as you do everytime someone posts a "what's the best sub" topic. This aint that if you allow it not to be.

I'm preparing for the worst. I have a 2 channel music room in development that I may or may not need subs for. I tentatively have a set of Philharmonic BMR Towers coming my way that are ported with 8" drivers. My gut tells me they won't hit hard and I'll need something else to supplement them. I just don't see 8" drivers knocking you on your ass no matter the talent behind their design. I was shooting for the monitors but was told, simply put... I couldn't get a set this year, and was forced to settle on towers if I wanted any Philharmonic speakers at all this year.

I've always built my own subs but for huge, loud, deep and ferocious home theater bass. Never smaller boxes just for tight, chest thumping music. Plus the cost difference between buying something like a 12" ported box vs making your own has a smaller value proposition so I build big.

I'm curious if there is a battle of the subs type thread out there that ranks all the 10's against each other, all the 12's and so on. Audioholics has a review of the Monoprice Monolith THX 10" and 12" subs that basically says the 10" isn't that much different than the 12" for music. Those seem like incredible values. So, If I were to get two of the 10" Monolith's, how would they compare to dual 10" SVS? Or dual 10" HSU etc... If I could a find a resource online I would certainly read it. Just reading random comments and reviews doesnt give me the side by side evaluations I'm looking for. I'm not looking for massive SPL either. I really don't want to crank the music extremely loud to get serious kick. Something closer to when a kick drum kicks, it actually freaking kicks. After some years in a short lived band and having gone to live shows, there's no home speaker that does that kind of punch and most subs give you shake, rattle and roll with their punch. I don't want to shake the house or glue down anything in this room. I suppose I have to tune the sub to specific frequencies.

My first instinct is to get two Monolith M-10 V2 10in THX Subs and live happily ever after. But years of programming has taught me that SVS subs are the way to go but they are costly.

Then, after research and reading forums spanning close to 20 years, the consensus is now that sealed subs are NOT for tighter cleaner more musical bass and everything everywhere all the time must now be ported. I don't have the luxury of just shooting an email off to a rep and having them send me whatever I want. I can't get poop to review or evaluate from anyone, I've tried. So here we are. Is it necessary to get dual 12" or even 15" just to have some real kick or can dual 10" do it? Is Monolith actually a good sub? Would an audiophile on a budget welcome dual Monolith 10in THX subs into their music only listening room?

Rythmik Audio • Direct Servo subwoofer products

And be done with it.

 

[fmw]

I only recommend products with which I have personal experience. If you are handy you might look over the offerings from Parts Express. I built my own sub using a 15" driver and plate amp I bought there. Incredible sub that outperforms my other three factory made subs by a bunch.

An 8" driver is normally appropriate for mid range but it can reproduce bass if it is compliant enough but bass performance will fall very short of the capabilities of a subwoofer. I would definitely plan on adding a subwoofer. It will add more to your system than all the electronics combined. Audio is all about the speakers. Happy listening.

 

[JasonGSG]

@WookieGR
If you've got the chops for it, I'd look at modeling these:

Home

Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference Series HF Subwoofer 4 OhmThe Dayton Audio Reference Series RSS390HF-4 15" speakers take the quality and performance of the much acclaimed RS line into the subwoofer realm. As with the rest of the Reference Series, the main focus of these subwoofers is...

www.parts-express.com

...and looking at low tune options, build two, and Boom!

Nailed it..but the 390HO or new 390HE-22

 

[JasonGSG]

Excellent choice on the PH speakers... A BMR Monitor build is on my very short list (enclosures secured already) but I'd even consider Jim's work over at Salk a value (push come to shove) plus his finish is 2nd to none.

Sounds like youre no stranger to the DIY/AIY community, basic hand tools & some common sense regarding their usage. It would also seem you're no stranger to most platforms/groups & forums so I likely don't need to introduce myself...

If you look at a general 'Subwoofer cone surface area chart' you'll find neat little bits of information about multiple driver comps. Example, (2x) 10" drivers have a combined SA of 157", (2x) 12" drivers combined equal 226" (+-)… With that in mind a single 18" driver is still greater at 255" (single 15" is 176") & from an integration, time alignment, phase & 'insert all the buzzwords' will perform better. But do you have the space for them? Lots of required information missing here pertaining to the room & dimensions!?!?

Let's look at some of 'What you've been looking at' plus a few... Research for the 'Audiophile on a budget' IMO should be limited to Power Sound Audio, HSU, Rythmik, SVS, Monolith & sure RSL otherwise everyone would have JTR, Seaton, DSS & the likes. Some of those represent better values than others.. heck, in some cases you can get two subs for the price of one or more!

Whats your integration plan? What are you using for associated gear... Specifically the Integrated/Processor? Will you be using a MiniDSP or looking to use Speaker level terminals?

"I've always built my own subs but for huge, loud, deep and ferocious home theater bass. Never smaller boxes just for tight, chest thumping music. Plus the cost difference between buying something like a 12" ported box vs making your own has a smaller value proposition so I build big."

Sometimes all it takes to change the above is a change in drivers (& not a wallet crushing one)..

Example... This plot shows a Lavoce 18" pro driver vs the ever popular Dayton UM18-22 & what you're seeing is a healthy jump in the Mid (chest kick) thats desired.. Sure, you lose a little (so little) on the bottom end because you high pass these at 19hz but the gain where you want it for Audio is significant.

I'll pause for some feedback but I think you can do better than dual Monolith 10's.

 

[JasonGSG]

Nailed it.. View attachment 55468

Although for comparable money the SQL15 is a better choice or the LAB15 from Eminence