Audyssey MultEQ App on an iPhone => Work Around?

[ryanosaur]

@ryanosaur Today I attempted to try a L/C/R measurement (20-20K sweep in REW) but got nowhere fast. I switched to Java and toggled it to L+R but it just outputted the center channel. If I switched to L or R, it would output / test each of those just fine. I must be doing something wrong.

Any tips of links on how to do this specific task correctly will be appreciated. (By the way, this stuff just eats up time.) In the meantime, I'll keep looking for answers.

I'm still super-noobs on REW. I took a few easy sweeps a couple years ago, saw nothing of extreme concern, and never got back to it.
Also, my computer was challenged at processing additional channels. I now have a newer Windows laptop which, in theory, should handle REW with no problem.
Just never got back to it.

 

[-Jim-]

@ryanosaur I'm with you on REW then, but I am quite competent with PCs, as I build and repair them for close friends and family as a hobby for the last couple decades or so. There's 3 desktops (one a Gamer), a HT PC, and 4 or 5 laptops -all fully functioning plus a couple of carcasses lying about in various stages of repair.

Perhaps @PENG can advise as he's been mucking with REW too.

I'm hoping my premise still holds true. It's just modified a bit with the more I learn about the capabilities of these technologies. I'm hopeful to use slight (?) Sub positioning changes along with the the L/C/R locations (and toe ins if applicable?) to optimize the fundamental sound from all the Fronts Speakers, as documented by REW for a base line. Then use a combination of the APP (for tweaking) with REW to flatten out the really bad spots with crossover / distance adjustments used primarily to avoid nulls.

I hope this makes sense.

Now to find out what I'm not doing correctly to get a L/C/R measurement...

 

[PENG]

@ryanosaur Today I attempted to try a L/C/R measurement (20-20K sweep in REW) but got nowhere fast. I switched to Java and toggled it to L+R but it just outputted the center channel. If I switched to L or R, it would output / test each of those just fine. I must be doing something wrong.

Any tips of links on how to do this specific task correctly will be appreciated. (By the way, this stuff just eats up time.) In the meantime, I'll keep looking for answers.

May I suggest you post the following REW measurements first for us to see, then go from there. In general it is better to analyze the curves for L, R, C individually, or L+sub, R+sub, C+sub though it doesn't hurt to also plot L+R+C that we all seem to want to see as well.

As you know, you only need to use ASIO for plotting multi-channel. I used to plot those all the time, but eventually gave up because for my 7.1.4 configuration I think to analyze those would be a complete waste of time, you can't really do anything anyway regardless of what the curves show. As you ready know, you think you have time but once you go down that rabbit hole there is no end to it. I am retired now, and I still don't have time and there is a big WAF to deal with..

 

[-Jim-]

@PENG Thanks for the post.

No problem posting curves, as soon as I figure out how to do each one. I'm thinking a screenshot will suffice, or is there any point in upping the files?

I can do the individual curves, but as I posted above, the L+R combo just gave me the center channel which I thought was strange; and I haven't even heard about a speaker+sub combo.

I'm assuming 1/6th smoothing, without Audyssey or ?

The Misses is working from the home office today, and I don't know if I want to take my life in my hands and start doing REW testing. She often has Zoom calls with various staff members, so I don't want her to have to try to explain what her goofy husband is doing. But we'll see...

 

[ryanosaur]

@PENG Thanks for the post.

No problem posting curves, as soon as I figure out how to do each one. I'm thinking a screenshot will suffice, or is there any point in upping the files?

I can do the individual curves, but as I posted above, the L+R combo just gave me the center channel which I thought was strange; and I haven't even heard about a speaker+sub combo.

I'm assuming 1/6th smoothing, without Audyssey or ?

The Misses is working from the home office today, and I don't know if I want to take my life in my hands and start doing REW testing. She often has Zoom calls with various staff members, so I don't want her to have to try to explain what her goofy husband is doing. But we'll see...

Most people recommend 1/12 smoothing.
There is a little camera icon in an upper corner (iirc) that saves the graph without being a full screenshot.

 

[-Jim-]

@ryanosaur Thanks for the tip on the camera. Worked like a charm

With a stroke of luck (and to grab a cup of coffee at Starbucks - she loves her coffee from there) my Misses had to make a quick trip (and dam she was quick) to the bank; so I raced into the Games Room, setup the gear, and ripped off the graphs below. About half way through I realized what I thought was the CCB-8s only actually included the Subs. Somehow I thought REW pushed the signals only to the selected speaker, but maybe there's a box (default?) that drives the Subs that I missed. Anyway here's what I have.

Next up is adding the Subs back in. (In my haste I did them together but have no clue if both were being driven by REW)

And lastly it's with both Audyssey and Subs

When I ran the Audyssey App it set the Crossovers as:

Front 40 Hz
Center 60 Hz
Surround 80 Hz
Top Front 110 Hz
Top Rear 100 Hz

I just accepted them to get a baseline. I'd probably push the first two up to 80 Hz.

Gents, comments or suggestions are appreciated. Have a Great Weekend!

 

[PENG]

@ryanosaur Thanks for the tip on the camera. Worked like a charm

With a stroke of luck (and to grab a cup of coffee at Starbucks - she loves her coffee from there) my Misses had to make a quick trip (and dam she was quick) to the bank; so I raced into the Games Room, setup the gear, and ripped off the graphs below. About half way through I realized what I thought was the CCB-8s only actually included the Subs. Somehow I thought REW pushed the signals only to the selected speaker, but maybe there's a box (default?) that drives the Subs that I missed. Anyway here's what I have.

View attachment 55208

View attachment 55209

View attachment 55210

Next up is adding the Subs back in. (In my haste I did them together but have no clue if both were being driven by REW)

View attachment 55211

View attachment 55212

View attachment 55213

And lastly it's with both Audyssey and Subs

View attachment 55214

View attachment 55215

View attachment 55216


When I ran the Audyssey App it set the Crossovers as:

Front 40 Hz
Center 60 Hz
Surround 80 Hz
Top Front 110 Hz
Top Rear 100 Hz

I just accepted them to get a baseline. I'd probably push the first two up to 80 Hz.

Gents, comments or suggestions are appreciated. Have a Great Weekend!

Very well done Jim! It looks like your room is quite good so even with Audyssey off the response wouldn't be too bad, but Audyssey did smooth out the bass significantly. You seem to be getting what I would typically get that without tweaking with the App, you could achieve +/- 5 to 7 dB for the range 20 to 200 Hz, though the right channel did not do as well.

With tweaking, if you use Ratbuddyssey, I am sure it can be tightened to within +/- 3 to 5 dB, though the difference would likely be not audible. Some people, including our popular Matthew may tell you tweaking the way I and others have done would only improve the mmp but would mess up/make worse other positions. In my experience that is not the case at all, and I have a theory for that. Regardless, you can at least use the App to do some minor tweaks.

Some of the graphs seem to show a slight BBC dip but its hard to tell because the labels don't seem to be clear for me. For clarity it is better to focus only on the following:
A)
L+Subs
R+subs
C+subs
Subs only

B)
As A) above but no subs

If time is not available, just A will do.

That is, analyze the speakers individually.

On the MRC thing:

The Audyssey off FR graphs will tell you whether your speakers were designed (or they just do) to have that MR, aka BBC dip around the 2,000 Hz point. If they do, then you can decide to disable MRC based on your preference. If they don't have the dip then it should make no difference whether you disable MRC or not.

 

[-Jim-]

@PENG , thanks for the comments . Sorry if my labeling confused you. I was in a bit of a rush and did it a bit "bass ackwards".

Upon review, I didn't include any Subs only sweeps which was a major faux pas. I also noticed the vertical scaling is just the default, which when combined with the 1/12th smoothing makes the graphs look pretty good. Actually I was amazed how well some of them looked with just Audyssey's tweaking after I shifted the Subs slightly (as per my posts above).

I also noticed I somehow (must be the operator!) cut off the upper end of the graphs I posted, which also contributed to making the overall graphs look flatter. Just for grins I just created this one (using the defaults from the camera button) and got this out to 20kHz:

I have no idea as to why all of the previous graphs cut off at a bit less than 10KHz. I'm pretty sure the roll off is due to a bit of excessive toe in of the L&R CCB-8s as the center (an identical CCB-8 just rotated on it's side) doesn't roll off like the toed in L&R.

It's a bit "lumpy" at the upper end which may be due to reflections (?) off the stand it sits on combined with the arbitrary wedges (unused phase plugs from the CCB-8s) I shoved under it to angle it upwards towards the listener.

So I see a few potential physical tweaks and adjustments before getting into software. I was hoping to keep this simple (KISS Principle if possible) and use the tools at hand (without Ratbuddyssey for now) and get it to the best I can. (I haven't even tweaked the App since I bought it and got my iPhone setup with a Bluetooth Mouse and Keyboard)

And if I deem that result good enough, I may stop there. But more probably I'll grab Ratbuddyssey and see where it goes from there. By the way, to date my reading on Ratbuddyssey seems to indicate the author doesn't own any gear that can use/test the program anymore. He hired a Russian man to do some coding on it for him. There was something he posted on social media (I don't go there) that got him in some hot water (I don't know any details) but I'm uncertain he's continuing to support Ratbuddyssey any further. There was also some talk he was looking to "merge" it with a version another gent had done some improvement / development work on. (Again no details that I've found so far.)

I still haven't sorted why when using REW with an L+R output the Center goes off. I guess I really don't need to understand why but I do like to understand things. Hopefully I'll get more familiar with REW and figure things out. It seems vastly more capable than I'll be using. I hoped it had a function to do a sweep of all Bed level speakers so you'd have an overall graph.

Please advise if you see anything I should be doing to improve this system. Thanks for the advise and support to date.

 

[ryanosaur]

Some microphones roll off early... I think my Omnimic does this. I've heard it is pretty common with Umik1, too.

 

[PENG]

@PENG , thanks for the comments . Sorry if my labeling confused you. I was in a bit of a rush and did it a bit "bass ackwards".

Upon review, I didn't include any Subs only sweeps which was a major faux pas. I also noticed the vertical scaling is just the default, which when combined with the 1/12th smoothing makes the graphs look pretty good. Actually I was amazed how well some of them looked with just Audyssey's tweaking after I shifted the Subs slightly (as per my posts above).

I also noticed I somehow (must be the operator!) cut off the upper end of the graphs I posted, which also contributed to making the overall graphs look flatter. Just for grins I just created this one (using the defaults from the camera button) and got this out to 20kHz:
View attachment 55263

I have no idea as to why all of the previous graphs cut off at a bit less than 10KHz. I'm pretty sure the roll off is due to a bit of excessive toe in of the L&R CCB-8s as the center (an identical CCB-8 just rotated on it's side) doesn't roll off like the toed in L&R.

View attachment 55264


It's a bit "lumpy" at the upper end which may be due to reflections (?) off the stand it sits on combined with the arbitrary wedges (unused phase plugs from the CCB-8s) I shoved under it to angle it upwards towards the listener.

So I see a few potential physical tweaks and adjustments before getting into software. I was hoping to keep this simple (KISS Principle if possible) and use the tools at hand (without Ratbuddyssey for now) and get it to the best I can. (I haven't even tweaked the App since I bought it and got my iPhone setup with a Bluetooth Mouse and Keyboard)

And if I deem that result good enough, I may stop there. But more probably I'll grab Ratbuddyssey and see where it goes from there. By the way, to date my reading on Ratbuddyssey seems to indicate the author doesn't own any gear that can use/test the program anymore. He hired a Russian man to do some coding on it for him. There was something he posted on social media (I don't go there) that got him in some hot water (I don't know any details) but I'm uncertain he's continuing to support Ratbuddyssey any further. There was also some talk he was looking to "merge" it with a version another gent had done some improvement / development work on. (Again no details that I've found so far.)

I still haven't sorted why when using REW with an L+R output the Center goes off. I guess I really don't need to understand why but I do like to understand things. Hopefully I'll get more familiar with REW and figure things out. It seems vastly more capable than I'll be using. I hoped it had a function to do a sweep of all Bed level speakers so you'd have an overall graph.

Please advise if you see anything I should be doing to improve this system. Thanks for the advise and support to date.

Agreed, it is a good idea to do some physical tweak first before you start doing the magical part i.e. editing with the App/Rat. Sub crawling would be a good place to start.

When you are ready to use the App/Rat, please read up on some of the info/links previously posted. And remember, stick with cuts, leave the boost alone until the very end. Even then, don't boost any more than a couple dB. In fact, if there is no or negligible effects with 1 dB boost, going for more will more than likely make things worse.

The latest Rat works very well for me, but if you are willing to pay and try something else, there is a spreadsheet based one that probably is easier to use.

Here's the link to that one:

Audyssey Curve Editor Excel Tool – Simple Home Cinema

You may want to try Rat first though because its free and I know for sure it works, go the graphs/results to prove, and many experience users including me can answer some questions.

 

[-Jim-]

Some microphones roll off early... I think my Omnimic does this. I've heard it is pretty common with Umik1, too.

Here's the specs for my Umik1 : 20 Hz - 20kHz +/-1dB with calibration loaded. For "Bassaholics" I think it's the bottom end that suffers. It would be interesting to see if anyone has cross referenced it with another calibrated mic below 20 Hz. My Subs really can't dig down that deep so it's not really relevant for me, but I'm geeky enough to just want to know.

 

[ryanosaur]

Here's the specs for my Umik1

Oh. I know.
I own one of those, too.

I also know this happens. *shrugs

And is why there are $500 and $1000 measurement mics, too.

 

[-Jim-]

Agreed, it is a good idea to do some physical tweak first before you start doing the magical part i.e. editing with the App/Rat. Sub crawling would be a good place to start.

When you are ready to use the App/Rat, please read up on some of the info/links previously posted. And remember, stick with cuts, leave the boost alone until the very end. Even then, don't boost any more than a couple dB. In fact, if there is no or negligible effects with 1 dB boost, going for more will more than likely make things worse.

The latest Rat works very well for me, but if you are willing to pay and try something else, there is a spreadsheet based one that probably is easier to use.

Here's the link to that one:

Audyssey Curve Editor Excel Tool – Simple Home Cinema

You may want to try Rat first though because its free and I know for sure it works, go the graphs/results to prove, and many experience users including me can answer some questions.

Hi Gents,

Well my theories didn't hold much water. Here's the attempt to flatten the SPL above 10k by adjusting the Toe In. I did only the Left speaker (at least for now) as I expected it to be representative of both L&R. (The degrees magnetic are across the front of the speaker just for my reference, so I can reposition them if desired. I used the compass on my iPhone.) This was really just to see if my theory worked, as the High Frequency roll off isn't noticeable. (At least to me.)

All measurements were with Audyssey off.

Of course it went opposite to what I expected. Based on the reviews and HSU info I read before purchase, CCB-8s were designed to be heavily Toed in (around 15 degrees off axis) to improve imaging, and if you didn't they would seem "bright" (According to James Larson's review: "If listened to on its direct axis, this is likely to make the CCB-8 a bright speaker"). I tried the Left Speaker with even more Toe in but it didn't improve it either.

I know there was no reason to have the Subs on, but it didn't matter either. (And I was too lazy to bother)

Next I tried manipulating the angle / distance of the Center Speaker. The effect was very minor and not in the upper end anyway, so that too failed.

Initially I was mucking about trying to figure out what was up with L+R giving me a Center out. I did track that down to my error in not selecting Pure as the sound field, which when enabled, the Auto selection function of the Denon sensed as a Multi-Channel Input for Aux1. So that was a small win.

I also tried to use an old ~25 foot HDMI cable so I could sit at a table at the back of the room with the Laptop well behind the Sectional with the Mic in the preferred seat, as not to interfere with the measurements. The Laptop and the Denon (and the Samsung QLED TV) did connect when I first plugged it in, but when I was trying to figure out the sound field issue, I think the HDMI handshaking tossed me out, and I could never get it to connect again. Without the recognition of the HDMI connection, the Laptop Output defaults to the Realtek High Definition Audio; and not the Denon HDMI connection so REW won't do anything you want it to. Once I surmised it could be the cable, and connected a shorter different one, it worked fine.

I don't know what spec the ~25 foot HDMI cable is, but I guess I'll have to buy a new one to play with the system at the back of the room. I'm assuming it would be a software tweak to boost the treble above 14K or so, but I can't hear it there anyway, so I'd be just tweaking this for others => like the neighborhood dogs.

 

[-Jim-]

I found a sticker on the "other" end of the HDMI Cable. It's "HDMI High Speed with Ethernet" which of course is a "marketing term" and not a Spec. So as it says only that, and not anything about 3D, and therefore I think it's v1.4; as OEMs started making a big deal of HDMI cables with both Ethernet and the two 3D formats for broadcast content with v1.4a as TV (ha, ha) was supposed to embrace 3D. HDMI 1.4 added support for 4096 × 2160 at 24 Hz, 3840 × 2160 at 24, 25, and 30 Hz, and 1920 × 1080 at 120 Hz.

Of course I have no real idea as to the input needs of the Receiver but it's manual states "This unit supports input and output of 4K (3840 x 2160 pixels) video
signals of HDMI." The MSI GP60 2PE Leopard Laptop I'm using, says under HDMI, "Support 4Kx2K Output" which is HDMI 1.4 (as far as I know). So the Cable should work fine.

What do you guys think? Am I missing something here?

 

[-Jim-]

I just found this over at Prime Cables. Maybe the 4 Audio Streams added to 2.0 are needed for REW?

The shorter cable that works only has E134689 on the Cable, so it's no help figuring out what Spec is needed.

 

[-Jim-]

Good morning Gents,

Today I decided to retrace my steps with the 25 foot HDMI High Speed with Ethernet cable - in case I was doing something wrong. I connected the Laptop to the Receiver with that cable, but Windows 10 never saw the Denon Intel HDMI with it. But as soon as I swapped it for the shorter cable, that one works. What's really strange to me is Video from the Laptop (any source) is transmitted to the Receiver on the 25 foot HDMI cable and displayed on the Samsung TV. But with this cable the audio just comes out of the Laptop speakers. I guess if I want to sit at the back of the room with sound out of the Denon, I'll be buying a new 25 foot long Cable at at least HDMI 2.0 specification.

I also looked through the Denon speaker settings, and just noticed when I ran the Audyssey App, it set the L&R Speakers to Large. (I should have tweaked to this earlier when I noticed the Xover (crossover) was set to 40 Hz for them (as per above post). I've now set it to small.

I tried to take some Sub only measurements, but still haven't figured out how to do that yet. There is no Sub only configuration I can find (so far) in REW. I did figure out that what I thought was with both subs in my graphs above were really only a Left or a Right sub. (So they are all mislabeled ) I did muck about and tried dual outputs with both L&R Speakers and their related Subs. So I now know how to do that; which is progress.

I'll keep chipping away, and hope to make more progress.

 

[ryanosaur]

Good morning Gents,

Today I decided to retrace my steps with the 25 foot HDMI High Speed with Ethernet cable - in case I was doing something wrong. I connected the Laptop to the Receiver with that cable, but Windows 10 never saw the Denon Intel HDMI with it. But as soon as I swapped it for the shorter cable, that one works. What's really strange to me is Video from the Laptop (any source) is transmitted to the Receiver on the 25 foot HDMI cable and displayed on the Samsung TV. But with this cable the audio just comes out of the Laptop speakers. I guess if I want to sit at the back of the room with sound out of the Denon, I'll be buying a new 25 foot long Cable at at least HDMI 2.0 specification.

I also looked through the Denon speaker settings, and just noticed when I ran the Audyssey App, it set the L&R Speakers to Large. (I should have tweaked to this earlier when I noticed the Xover (crossover) was set to 40 Hz for them (as per above post). I've now set it to small.

I tried to take some Sub only measurements, but still haven't figured out how to do that yet. There is no Sub only configuration I can find (so far) in REW. I did figure out that what I thought was with both subs in my graphs above were really only a Left or a Right sub. (So they are all mislabeled ) I did muck about and tried dual outputs with both L&R Speakers and their related Subs. So I now know how to do that; which is progress.

I'll keep chipping away, and hope to make more progress.

So at 25' you are coming up against some other difficulties, such as the device being able to transmit along that length.
I didn't bring it up in that other thread this morning, but your device may not have the power available to send the signal along. Of course, the cable could just be bad, too.

Somewhere along the 25-35' run, you need to start looking at hybrid cables, which are more expensive, and the possibility of needing a voltage inserter.

 

[-Jim-]

As I remember, when I bought this 25 foot HDMI Cable I was aware of the potential issues with long HDMI Cables. Whatever the Spec was for this cable (and that's the detail I forget now) it was supposed to work to it. It's false advertising for a manufacturer to state it's cable is a certain Spec and then not have it perform to that Spec regardless the length of the Cable .

I have noticed there is not a large amount of HDMI 2.1 Cables that are Spec'd at 25 Feet. I read a paper where 25 feet was the upper limit (at least at that time) for passive HDMI Cables. Beyond that an "active" cable would be required to overcome losses and maintain data integrity. Perhaps the 25 foot limit was for a lower Spec (1.4?) than current 2.1.

I just realized today that my HDMI Cables from my Receiver to the TV , and from my 4K UBD are probably to an old spec. They are reasonably short (less than 6 feet) so maybe not an issue.

I may or may not buy a new 25 Foot HDMI Cable. For now I'll just use the Bluetooth Keyboard and Mouse I connected to my iPhone for the Audyssey App if I want to sit behind the Sectional at the Table to manipulate REW on the Laptop.