Advice on Kef R11s or Martin Logan Motion XTI60

[Michi70]

I'm running a Yamaha Advantage RXA-1070 and it is long past due for me to update my old, but well maintained Infinity Studio Monitor speakers. I've had the SMs' for 27 years for 5.1 theater and listening to 2 channel music. I've changed my listening habits to mostly 2 channel music over the 27 years, but once and a while enjoy a good DVD. The matching BU-150 sub has finally died was taken to be recycled. I spent a lot of time listening to speakers at Magnolia in Best Buy and a very good independent home audio and theater store in my area.

I ruled out the Klipsch RF-7 v. iii. Nice speaker but preferred the KEF R11 over it. Then I started to think if my Yamaha would even be able to run the KEF R11s at a decent volume. Started looking at the Martin Logan Motion XTI 60s instead as a more viable speaker set to replace the Infinity SMs. The money saved by going with 2 XTI 60s over the KEF R11s would allow me to save around $2000 and put that money back into a center channel and surround speakers with some left over.

If I went with the KEF R11s I have read I would need to update the Yamaha AVR with an amplifier or just start over. My listening room is 23 ft L by 14 ft W (and I need to get out of this apartment into a house!). The KEF R11s are sweet, but seem like overkill for the room plus the expense entailed. I appreciate the help and advice for the community here for my conundrum.

 

[ryanosaur]

These Speakers both have their strengths AND flaws. I likely preferred the ML Motion 60s to the KEF R11s.
I did not hear the R11s in their best setup, wheras I DID hear the MLs in their best set up.
I had a mostly good experience with the older R900 from KEF. I also was subjected to Fatigue from what is an elevated treble common to some of their Speakers.
I did not experience that with the MLs.
ML Motions tend to have a more limited "sweet spot."

YMMV.

 

[Michi70]

Hi ryanosaur,

I felt the ML Motion 60s tended to have a more pronounced mid range depending on the music that could be good or bad. It was wonderful for classic metal like Venom or Metallica, where the KEF R11s were preferred when listening to Jethro Tull. Agreed on the sweet spot for the MLs, they look to be a more traditional bass reflex cabinet compared to what I saw for the KEF R11s (a whole lot more cabinetry going on there) I am typically listening in my room about 15 feet back from the speakers at home on the couch. The ML's have a tweeter on the top compared to the center for the KEFs.

 

[ryanosaur]

Hi ryanosaur,

I felt the ML Motion 60s tended to have a more pronounced mid range depending on the music that could be good or bad. It was wonderful for classic metal like Venom or Metallica, where the KEF R11s were preferred when listening to Jethro Tull. Agreed on the sweet spot for the MLs, they look to be a more traditional bass reflex cabinet compared to what I saw for the KEF R11s (a whole lot more cabinetry going on there) I am typically listening in my room about 15 feet back from the speakers at home on the couch. The ML's have a tweeter on the top compared to the center for the KEFs.

Why are you locked into just these two?
They aren't even really in the same category.

There are a lot of great Speaker out there if you are interested!

 

[Michi70]

That's what I ended up looking at the Magnolia store after seeing what was at the independent store for speakers.
Yup, you're right they are apples and oranges!

With respect to the AVR comments in my original post, it almost seems like dedicated a dedicated amp seems to be a must in order to get everything out of a good speaker, it gets somewhat overwhelming at times when you read a lot online.

 

[ryanosaur]

That's what I ended up looking at the Magnolia store after seeing what was at the independent store for speakers.
Yup, you're right they are apples and oranges!

With respect to the AVR comments in my original post, it almost seems like dedicated a dedicated amp seems to be a must in order to get everything out of a good speaker, it gets somewhat overwhelming at times when you read a lot online.

Not necessarily... the external Amp.

Please do not take this amiss, but you are bordering on a few traps. Magnolia, and online advice.



First, if you WANT external Amps, that is a value decision you have to make for yourself.
If you NEED external Amps depends on many factors.

...Your choice of Speakers among them. As well as what your gear can support.
There is a great online calculator tool you can check out and see what it tells you:

Peak SPL Calculator

For the Speakers...

Why do you want to upgrade?
This is about you, not me. Your System, your Ducats.
From a personal values choice, what are you really looking to accomplish?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have friend who just got the R11 and Yamaha A4A, which is the equivalent to the 1070.

No problem at all powering his R11 at high volume with just the Yamaha.

But the funny thing is, once you already have the speakers like R11 and AVR, you're probably gonna want an amp anyway even if you don't need it.

 

[Michi70]

I would like to hear more with some follow up questions that is all right

What amp did your friend get with the Yamaha A4A and what that brand compared to others? Running 2 channel off the amp only? What about other speakers for home theater? And lastly speaker wires for that? I see just some crazy prices for speaker wire compared to running wire off the roll with banana plugs.

 

[Michi70]

Not necessarily... the external Amp.

Please do not take this amiss, but you are bordering on a few traps. Magnolia, and online advice.



First, if you WANT external Amps, that is a value decision you have to make for yourself.
If you NEED external Amps depends on many factors.

...Your choice of Speakers among them. As well as what your gear can support.
There is a great online calculator tool you can check out and see what it tells you:

Peak SPL Calculator

For the Speakers...

Why do you want to upgrade?
This is about you, not me. Your System, your Ducats.
From a personal values choice, what are you really looking to accomplish?

I don't take your comments amiss, Ryanosaur. Its why I came to the forums to ask and learn. I appreciate it. Sometimes it seems a bit overwhelming when all you've upgraded over the years is the AVR.

I will look at the calculator!!. I'm not sure if I want or need external amps, it just seems a lot of what I read with good speakers people seem to have amps.

The speakers needed an upgrade I've had them since 1995.

Looking to have an updated set of speakers that I can enjoy every day for 2 channel music and a more up to date home theater. My Yamaha AVR is the most up to date thing I have and getting the Aventage RXA-1070 was a must for the new TV about 3 years ago for the HDMI ports. I had updated from a Yamaha RXV-2500 that I had for many years. That AVR was an update from a Sony ES AVR that died in 2004. Still have the RXV-2500 somewhere in my closet.

 

[ryanosaur]

And lastly speaker wires for that? I see just some crazy prices for speaker wire compared to running wire off the roll with banana plugs.

You DO NOT need to spend absurd $$$ on cables. Something like Monoprice Choice is just fine.
If you want to put Bananas on that, that's up to you. You can also just run straight to the binding post with no termination.

If you want Bananas, I like the Monoprice Affinity.

That's what I use... there is a lot of other stuff out there.

Just avoid Copper Clad Aluminum. Pure Copper is pretty affordable these days.

Edit: Depending on your run length and Speaker Impedance, 12 or 14 AWG is all you need.

 

[Beave]

KEF R11 measurements: KEF R11 measured at NRC

Martin Logan 60XTi measurements: ML 60XTi measured at NRC

Both about the same sensitivity (88dB).

KEF response is smoother on axis and off axis. ML has a midbass hump that *might* be a measurement artifact but probably is real. ML also has a couple of kinks in response that indicate possible resonances.

Measurements indicate ML might be a little brighter than the KEF.

ML's impedance plots show it's a much lower impedance than the KEF, making it a tougher load that requires more current from one's amplifier for a given level (since they both have about the same voltage sensitivity).

 

[Beave]

My advice:

Keep the Yamaha receiver.

Skip the ML speakers.

Consider KEF R7 or R5 and two subwoofers instead of the KEF R11. The R7 or R5 with two good subs will beat the R11s AND it will take a little of the load off or your receiver (since your receiver will no longer need to be powering the bass).

Or consider Revel F206 or F208.

Or consider the Philharmonic BMR tower: https://www.philharmonicaudio.com/

 

[ryanosaur]

KEF can be bright, too, though. However, for the price difference, you would expect what you see in the measurements.

@Beave , missed you lately buddy... Hope all is well !

 

[Michi70]

My advice:

Keep the Yamaha receiver.

Skip the ML speakers.

Consider KEF R7 or R5 and two subwoofers instead of the KEF R11. The R7 or R5 with two good subs will beat the R11s AND it will take a little of the load off or your receiver (since your receiver will no longer need to be powering the bass).

Or consider Revel F206 or F208.

Or consider the Philharmonic BMR tower: https://www.philharmonicaudio.com/

Thank you, Beave! What would you recommend for subwoofers? I see that Rel, SVS, and Monoprice seem to be popular manufacturers.

 

[ryanosaur]

Thank you, Beave! What would you recommend for subwoofers? I see that Rel, SVS, and Monoprice seem to be popular manufacturers.

Don't do REL. They are overpriced for their performance.

Monoprice Monolith, SVS, Rythmik, Arendal...These would be the mains ones I think of right now.

 

[Beave]

I don't follow subwoofers nearly as closely as I do speakers, so others can probably help you there a lot more than I can.

I've heard REL is way overpriced for what they are.

Internet direct is often recommended: Hsu, Rythmik, SVS, Power Sound Audio, Monoprice, etc.

Two subwoofers spaced apart is generally better than one bigger subwoofer.

Size you need depends on total volume of the room (length x width x height) and also how loud you want to be able to go and how low you want to be able to go. Producing clean loud bass at 30Hz doesn't require a lot. Producing clean loud bass at 20Hz requires a lot more. Two 12" subs would be ok, probably a minimum requirement; two 15" would play louder and deeper; and two 18" louder and deeper still.

Probably best to ask this question in the subwoofers subforum here (or maybe the speakers subforum) where others with more subwoofer experience can chime in.

 

[shadyJ]

Thank you, Beave! What would you recommend for subwoofers? I see that Rel, SVS, and Monoprice seem to be popular manufacturers.

Do you really need subwoofers with these tower speakers? If you are going to incorporate a sub into your system, you might as well get some decent bookshelf speakers instead of tower speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would like to hear more with some follow up questions that is all right

What amp did your friend get with the Yamaha A4A and what that brand compared to others? Running 2 channel off the amp only? What about other speakers for home theater? And lastly speaker wires for that? I see just some crazy prices for speaker wire compared to running wire off the roll with banana plugs.

AVR: Yamaha RX-A4A
Amp: ATI AT525NC (200W x 5CH)
Speakers: KEF R11 fronts, R2C center, R3 surrounds
Subwoofers: NONE
Wires: Kimber 4PR

How do ATI amps compare? They sound great compared to all other high-end amps.

 

[Michi70]

I'm ignorant on this, hence my follow up question, using the Yamaha just as a pre amp for its connectivity (HDMI, optical, digital coax, and etc.) then and running the entire set of KEF R series speakers 5.0 system off the ATI amp?

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm ignorant on this, hence my follow up question, using the Yamaha just as a pre amp for its connectivity (HDMI, optical, digital coax, and etc.) then and running the entire set of KEF R series speakers 5.0 system off the ATI amp?

There is no real "right" answer.
Amps may be unnecessary depending on your listening volume, seating distance. You may find you want them for the Mains only or Front 3 yet use the AVR Amp Stage to drive Surrounds/Rear/Atmos...