On Trump

[Dude#1279435]

I don't agree with every single line, but the broader problem with Trump.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2018/10/29/trumps-hate-and-lies-are-emboldening-extremists-just-ask-the-analyst-who-warned-us/

[excerpt]

THE PLUM LINE: Your 2009 report talked about the rise in right-wing extremism as a reaction to Barack Obama’s election and the financial crash. What are the ingredients now?

DARYL JOHNSON: We’ve had almost eight years of far-right groups recruiting, radicalizing and growing in strength. Typically during Republican administrations we see a decrease in activity. But under this administration they continue to operate at a heightened level. One reason why is the rhetoric coming from Donald Trump.

Building a border wall, deporting immigrants, a travel ban on Muslim countries — these are themes discussed on white-nationalist message boards and websites for years, now being endorsed and talked about at the highest levels of the government. He’s retweeted messages about Muslims from conspiracy sites. What keeps these groups energized and active is the fact that the administration has mainstreamed their message and tried to put it forth as policy.

PLUM LINE: Why do these groups usually go into decline during other Republican administrations?

JOHNSON: Militias and anti-government groups get energized under a Democrat because of fear of gun control; the hate groups get active because of liberal Democratic policies extending rights to immigrants, gays, and minorities. During Republican administrations the fear and paranoia get dialed back because they feel the administrations are not going to repeal gun rights or extend rights to minority groups.

PLUM LINE: This is different.

JOHNSON: Yup. Because of the viciousness of the rhetoric painting Democrats as evil and corrupt. And the different themes that resonate with extremists.

PLUM LINE: How does the Pittsburgh shooting fit into all of this?

JOHNSON: The conservative media has echoed the president … about how Democrats are contributing to this migrant exodus coming up from Central America. There’s a conspiracy theory that the Jews are controlling that. There’s been a mainstreaming of the extremist narratives. Things that were once on the outer fringes are now being brought to the forefront by Trump.

PLUM LINE: In the 2014 midterms, you did see race-baiting and anti-immigrant messaging from Republicans. But it seems different now, with the Soros angle. Trump has added explicit white-nationalist messaging to it.

JOHNSON: Soros is funding the Democrats and he’s basically in control of all of these things that they attribute to the evil Democrats.

PLUM LINE: The pushback has been “Trump isn’t really an anti-Semite.” But the whole depiction of a globalist plot to manipulate these dark hordes to infest and weaken the “real” people — that is white-nationalist ideology, right? He doesn’t have to be overtly anti-Semitic.

JOHNSON: No. When he says those things, he’s planting the idea, and those who are conspiracy-minded will attribute it to the Jews. He doesn’t have to come out and say it. It’s understood. If you’re a white nationalist and you hear “globalism,” you hear “new world order” and the “Jewish conspiracy to control the world.”

PLUM LINE: Having him do this is what emboldens these groups?

JOHNSON: Yeah, and those who are mentally ill and on the cusp of violence hear this type of rhetoric and it gets them thinking, “Hey, I’ve got to do something about this. I’ve got to retaliate.” That’s when you get people start mailing the mail bombs and shooting Jews.

PLUM LINE: Is Trump’s “many sides” comment also the language of white nationalism?

JOHNSON: It sends a message to the white nationalists that, “Hey, I’ve got your back, I’m gonna deflect the blame from you on to other people.” It doesn’t deter the violence. It actually encourages future violence, by not calling it out for what it was and who instigated it.

PLUM LINE: When Republicans echo the Soros messaging, or when Republicans don’t do enough to call out Trump’s white nationalist dog-whistling, what impact does that have?

JOHNSON: When no one says, “that’s not how we feel as a political party,” that in a sense endorses it through silence. By not condemning or challenging the rhetoric of the president, you’re in a sense giving him a green light to continue making those statements. That mainstreams the message.

 

[Pogre]

Okay, what is with them blaming the Jews for everything? I ended a friendship with a guy who had that view. Well, he has a lot of other bigoted views too and thats why I eventually ended it, but the Jewish thing I never really understood. Is it a Christian nationalist thing? Those guys are a bigger problem in and of themselves in this country.

 

[Dude#1279435]

Okay, what is with them blaming the Jews for everything? I ended a friendship with a guy who had that view. Well, he has a lot of other bigoted views too and thats why I eventually ended it, but the Jewish thing I never really understood. Is it a Christian nationalist thing? Those guys are a bigger problem in and of themselves in this country.

My guess would be a general disdain for Jews because they don't celebrate Christmas.

 

[Pogre]

My guess would be a general disdain for Jews because they don't celebrate Christmas.

They might as well. Christmas isn't really a religious holiday anymore anyway.

 

[highfigh]

Okay, what is with them blaming the Jews for everything? I ended a friendship with a guy who had that view. Well, he has a lot of other bigoted views too and thats why I eventually ended it, but the Jewish thing I never really understood. Is it a Christian nationalist thing? Those guys are a bigger problem in and of themselves in this country.

This is far from new. In Europe, they have been blamed for all kinds of things, including Plagues and more recently, COVID. They're often accused of manipulating financial systems and being in control of the media, too. They have been persecuted for close to 2000 years.

 

[highfigh]

They might as well. Christmas isn't really a religious holiday anymore anyway.

Not with the rampant commercialism.

 

[Pogre]

Not with the rampant commercialism.

It could be argued it never was a religious holiday. Well, not a Christian one anyway.

Not to say I'm anti Christmas or anything tho. Not at all. Lights, exchanging gifts, spending time with family and friends, lots of good stuff. It's one of my favorite holidays.

 

[highfigh]

My guess would be a general disdain for Jews because they don't celebrate Christmas.

Do you know the history of this?

The irony of Christians hating Jews- Christ is still called 'The King Of The Jews".

I was at a bar (I don't drink, I was just hanging out with people I have known for a very long time) and at one point the discussion turned to some people we both know, who are Jewish and the guy I was talking with is also Jewish. He said "You know, Christians have a lot to thank the Jews for" and I asked if it was because Jesus was a Jew. He laughed and said, "Exactly!".

 

[highfigh]

It could be argued it never was a religious holiday. Well, not a Christian one anyway.

Not to say I'm anti Christmas or anything tho. Not at all. Lights, exchanging gifts, spending time with family and friends, lots of good stuff. It's one of my favorite holidays.

How far back are you going with this? It's far too commercial, but you're gonna get an argument from devout Christians if you tell them it's not a religious holiday. They stole the date, but what is being celebrated is definitely about the person/entity being worshiped.

 

[Pogre]

How far back are you going with this? It's far too commercial, but you're gonna get an argument from devout Christians if you tell them it's not a religious holiday. They stole the date, but what is being celebrated is definitely about the person/entity being worshiped.

There's evidence that it started as a pagan thing and was co opted. So yes, it was made into a religious Christian holiday, but it's roots are in something else. Things like bringing a tree in the house and decorating it has origins in pagan celebration. Like you point out tho it's gone commercial and changed entirely into something else.

 

[Pogre]

you're gonna get an argument from devout Christians if you tell them it's not a religious holiday.

Stand outside a church in the summertime and ask the average folk coming out of it what they think of when you say Christmas. I'll bet Jesus isn't the first answer you get from most.

I hear you tho, the hard-cores would definitely have a problem with it.

 

[highfigh]

Stand outside a church in the summertime and ask the average folk coming out of it what they think of when you say Christmas. I'll bet Jesus isn't the first answer you get from most.

I hear you tho, the hard-cores would definitely have a problem with it.

They aren't devout, they're probably C&E Christians- C&E stands for 'Christmas & Easter'.

 

[Pogre]

They aren't devout, they're probably C&E Christians- C&E stands for 'Christmas & Easter'.

So they are then the majority, no? That's my point. I get yours too tho. You did clarify "devout". Tho that is a fuzzy term in and of itself. Who decides what is considered devout?

 

[highfigh]

There's evidence that it started as a pagan thing and was co opted. So yes, it was made into a religious Christian holiday, but it's roots are in something else. Things like bringing a tree in the house and decorating it has origins in pagan celebration. Like you point out tho it's gone commercial and changed entirely into something else.

The date corresponds with the Pagan ritual Saturnalia. They used trees for their ceremonies, too.

To be honest, I have no problem with people who revere nature- not sure I would use 'worship', but that would be OK, too.

I have been in the Grand Canyon for whitewater rafting trips on three occasions and it's awe-inspiring to see rock that was formed over one billion years ago. However, don't tell people from some religions about the timeline because they won't believe it. The guides offer geological info for the guests and during the first trip, they told us about a group who just shook their heads when they were told about the age of the canyon and the rock formations. Said the universe is about 6800 years old. After that, the guides would say "Look at the pretty rocks".

This shot is from the first trip- came around the bend and this was waiting for us-

 

[highfigh]

So they are then the majority, no? That's my point. I get yours too tho. You did clarify "devout". Tho that is a fuzzy term in and of itself. Who decides what is considered devout?

I would define 'devout' as 'those whose lives revolve around...". Whether they're actually good people is up for debate. I had an aunt who I would characterize as 'devout' and she had no use for Christians who weren't Catholic. I was raised as a Catholic and left because I learned about what the RC church had done- didn't want anything to do with an organization that would do anything like those things. Now that the abuse cover-ups have made it into the light, I want less to do with it. Aside for that, the only people she didn't like were Russians, mainly because of what she likely heard from her father, who had come to the US from Poznan which was called 'Pozen' at that time. Honestly, I would have had a hard time claiming Germany as my home country if I were from Germany OR Russia and for large chunks of time, there was no country called 'Poland' because the other two fought over it for so long. I would think that their strong Catholic faith had to do with the fact that Poznan is home to the oldest cathedral in the country and was one of the first places where Catholicism was adopted.

 

[highfigh]

Stand outside a church in the summertime and ask the average folk coming out of it what they think of when you say Christmas. I'll bet Jesus isn't the first answer you get from most.

I hear you tho, the hard-cores would definitely have a problem with it.

Right- catch them on a bad day and it might turn out with "I'll kill you!".

Holy wars- go figure.

 

[Trell]

Your linked article was published October 2018, and it got worse after that culminating with a failed coup attempt by Trump.

 

[Pogre]

I had an aunt who I would characterize as 'devout' and she had no use for Christians who weren't Catholic.

Yup, and there are devout catholics too, lol. Aren't they really christians too tho? But then so are mormons and baptists and protestants but none of them can agree on even the basics of salvation. How does one know which one is the right one? The Mormons think the Christians are going to... I guess be separated? The baptists think the catholics are going to hell, the catholics think the jews are going to hell... how do you pick the right one? The same arguments, logic and reason can be used to apologize for any and all of them. Does one go with the best heaven or try to avoid the worst hell? Either way your chances are thousands to 1 of picking the right one! What if you pick the wrong one? They can't all be right, but they could all be wrong...

Sorry, not directed at you. Just a little rant on the side of reason.

 

[highfigh]

Yup, and there are devout catholics too, lol. Aren't they really christians too tho? But then so are mormons and baptists and protestants but none of them can agree on even the basics of salvation. How does one know which one is the right one? The Mormons think the Christians are going to... I guess be separated? The baptists think the catholics are going to hell, the catholics think the jews are going to hell... how do you pick the right one? The same arguments, logic and reason can be used to apologize for any and all of them. Does one go with the best heaven or try to avoid the worst hell? Either way you're chances are thousands to 1 of picking the right one! What if you pick the wrong one? They can't all be right, but they could all be wrong...

Sorry, not directed at you. Just a little rant on the side of reason.

She WAS Catholic. Lutherans, Baptist, whatever- it didn't matter that they worship the same person/deity. I changed the subject- there was no point in going further. Wonderful woman, but wow! I just couldn't grasp that but it did help to understand why people engage in battle, even though they're not much different. It's not logical.

 

[Pogre]

They aren't devout, they're probably C&E Christians- C&E stands for 'Christmas & Easter'.

I've heard the term "cafeteria christians". You go though the line and pick and choose the things you like, and ignore or dismiss the stuff you don't...