Speaker shopping musings...

S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
A single 2.5" con mid range is just bad design period and not a sensible design. It just is not. This is pure marketing to get to those who believe three way is better then two way because it is a higher number. The fact is the speaker would be cheaper and better as a two way.

Shady, I'm afraid you have not accumulated a sufficient number of years of the Lord, to develop the cynicism required.
You have to admit, what you want from a loudspeaker is beyond what most people would need. Most people do not listen to levels that mirror a live orchestra. Obviously, a single 2.5" midrange would not be able to cut it for that kind of use. But for the everyday levels that most people listen at, it is probably perfectly adequate.

However, I will concede it is weird to put such a small midrange with two 8" bass drivers. That design will be seriously bottlenecked by the midrange driver unless it using some kind of wonder technology that I don't know about.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I've always thought of cynicism as skepticism gone bad...
 
Billy106

Billy106

Audioholic Intern
A single 2.5" con mid range is just bad design period and not a sensible design. It just is not. This is pure marketing to get to those who believe three way is better then two way because it is a higher number. The fact is the speaker would be cheaper and better as a two way.

Shady, I'm afraid you have not accumulated a sufficient number of years of the Lord, to develop the cynicism required.
Nah...he did Purdy good in his past life...
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
"too long" came and went- I injured it on June 1, last year and PT was only mildly effective- I have made more progress on my own.

Does anyone carry PSB speakers near you?

It's too bad B&M stores aren't more common, but people decided that reading about the equipment they might want is better than auditioning it. Didn't want to pay the cost of having a local place with a wide selection. To be fair, a lot of dealers shot themselves in the foot by hiring people who didn't know anything and then, to make things worse, they weren't trained properly.
Yes, TargetHiFi carries PSB, Monitor Audio, Revel, Martin Logan and Opera. I was looking at their gallery and they have the MA Platinum speakers but also a pair of Gold 200 or 300 like I listened to. Would be interesting to hear the Gold in a different setting. I also spotted a previous gen MA Gold but that may have been an older photo. They also have the Revel Concerta 36 but not the Performa line. They tend to carry only one or two models from each brand, not the full line. I haven't been inside for a while, but the main floor has a lot of brick walls as it's an older building. There are dedicated listening rooms on the second floor. Not sure if I want to make them lug towers upstairs if I am just window shopping. :)

The big retailers like Future Shop in Canada (Best Buy) really put the squeeze on smaller audio shops. Below the $2k retail mark it became very difficult to compete which left mostly the high end gear. Something like an AVR which I can buy based on specs is going to be cheaper coming from Crutchfield or Gibby's. Going to a dealer, I would expect more knowledgeable and trained staff. Strathroy Audio Video which is a half hour outside of town does specialize in complete sales, setup and service and has managed to survive for years. They keep very limited stock, though, dealing primarily in LG TVs, Yamaha AVRs, Klipsch speakers and Bell'o racks. I think that it's the custom installation that keeps many of those stores afloat.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
You have to admit, what you want from a loudspeaker is beyond what most people would need. Most people do not listen to levels that mirror a live orchestra. Obviously, a single 2.5" midrange would not be able to cut it for that kind of use. But for the everyday levels that most people listen at, it is probably perfectly adequate.

However, I will concede it is weird to put such a small midrange with two 8" bass drivers. That design will be seriously bottlenecked by the midrange driver unless it using some kind of wonder technology that I don't know about.
Yes, and bottlenecked to the point of the futile. I bet a lot of those drivers have, or will smoke.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
What would Audioholics be without a bit of philosophy? :)
Well, without philosophy there would be no science. ;)

Plus I think it's an important distinction. I see cynics accused of being too skeptical sometimes. The way I see it you can't be too skeptical (that's like saying someone can be "too correct"), but you can be surly and negative about something without having all the facts. That's when it becomes cynicism.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Well, without philosophy there would be no science. ;)

Plus I think it's an important distinction. I see cynics accused of being too skeptical sometimes. The way I see it you can't be too skeptical (that's like saying someone can be "too correct"), but you can be surly and negative about something without having all the facts. That's when it becomes cynicism.
There is some overlap and the implied meaning can vary. Most manufacturers are self-serving in some respect. They are in it for the money after all. The question becomes which ones are basing decisions on profit when it is knowingly to the detriment of the consumer.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
You have to admit, what you want from a loudspeaker is beyond what most people would need. Most people do not listen to levels that mirror a live orchestra. Obviously, a single 2.5" midrange would not be able to cut it for that kind of use. But for the everyday levels that most people listen at, it is probably perfectly adequate.

However, I will concede it is weird to put such a small midrange with two 8" bass drivers. That design will be seriously bottlenecked by the midrange driver unless it using some kind of wonder technology that I don't know about.
I have been thinking about what you said.

I think there is a difference in speaker requirements between popular music and classical music using natural instruments. For the latter, I think high quality speakers are mandatory. One has to remember the push to high fidelity reproduction came in the earliest years from the classical music fraternity, and I think in many respects it still does. Gilbert Briggs the founder of Wharfedale was an extremely accomplished pianist. Peter Walker was an accomplished flautist, and seen over the years playing the flute in the annual three choirs festival orchestra.

A fundamental issue is dynamic range and its accompanying requirement for excellent S/N ratio.

Popular music has a much lower dynamic range. The average level of classical music is much lower than most popular music but its dynamic range far greater.

There is more quiet music than loud, but the loud can be loud. Osmo Vanska, conductor of the MSO here, makes the point often. He is king of the pianissimo. With natural instruments there is a limit to how loud they play, so to get the dynamic range the players have to be able to play softly.

It was to all practical purposes, it was not until the advent of digital audio, that dynamic range compression was required on most classical recordings. This of course alters the composers intent. Digital compression, especially if severe often requires a degree of dynamic range compression also.

Now the wider the dynamic range paradoxically the lower the average level.

So the volume setting for a good dynamic recording will be higher then one with compressed range. That means volume settings will be higher for classical than popular.

Recently the BPO have gone to 44.1 FLAC and so has BBC classical music streaming. Before the BPO change, my volume setting was around -13 db for the Digital Concert Hall. Now with lossless, depending on the work it has gone up to the range -6 to -9 db.

The bottom line is that if you are going to play uncompressed large forces classical music, then powerful speakers and amps are required. If not, you won't hear the pianissimos, or the fortes will distort, and may cause damage. In addition I suspect classical music has a higher output in the midrange. So one 2.5" midrange would not cut it for most classical music lovers, not just me. Among friends I have had over the years who like classical music they have tended to larger speakers and bigger amps.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I have been thinking about what you said.

I think there is a difference in speaker requirements between popular music and classical music using natural instruments. For the latter, I think high quality speakers are mandatory. One has to remember the push to high fidelity reproduction came in the earliest years from the classical music fraternity, and I think in many respects it still does. Gilbert Briggs the founder of Wharfedale was an extremely accomplished pianist. Peter Walker was an accomplished flautist, and seen over the years playing the flute in the annual three choirs festival orchestra.

A fundamental issue is dynamic range and its accompanying requirement for excellent S/N ratio.

Popular music has a much lower dynamic range. The average level of classical music is much lower than most popular music but its dynamic range far greater.

There is more quiet music than loud, but the loud can be loud. Osmo Vanska, conductor of the MSO here, makes the point often. He is king of the pianissimo. With natural instruments there is a limit to how loud they play, so to get the dynamic range the players have to be able to play softly.

It was to all practical purposes, it was not until the advent of digital audio, that dynamic range compression was required on most classical recordings. This of course alters the composers intent. Digital compression, especially if severe often requires a degree of dynamic range compression also.

Now the wider the dynamic range paradoxically the lower the average level.

So the volume setting for a good dynamic recording will be higher then one with compressed range. That means volume settings will be higher for classical than popular.

Recently the BPO have gone to 44.1 FLAC and so has BBC classical music streaming. Before the BPO change, my volume setting was around -13 db for the Digital Concert Hall. Now with lossless, depending on the work it has gone up to the range -6 to -9 db.

The bottom line is that if you are going to play uncompressed large forces classical music, then powerful speakers and amps are required. If not, you won't hear the pianissimos, or the fortes will distort, and may cause damage. In addition I suspect classical music has a higher output in the midrange. So one 2.5" midrange would not cut it for most classical music lovers, not just me. Among friends I have had over the years who like classical music they have tended to larger speakers and bigger amps.
I would say that orchestral music might be a bit more demanding for neutrality since more of the frequency spectrum is constantly engaged, so therefore dips or peaks in the response would be more evident that typical pop music.

I am not so sure that orchestral is more demanding of dynamic range. I agree that it often has a much wider dynamic range than pop music which is often heavily compressed, but it all depends on how loud you like your music. Loud and heavily compressed pop music can constantly be stressing a speaker and will be more likely to be a source of thermal compression, or maybe overdriving if the music is bass heavy. Where orchestral music might benefit from a greater dynamic range is that when distortion does crop up, it is more evident since the sound of these instruments are so well known. In much pop music, if distortion does start to creep in, you might never know since there could be a lot of artificial distortion in the music itself.

One speaker attribute that tends to benefit orchestral music is wide dispersion. That can have a more enveloping sound that is reminscent of a concert hall or church or similar venue. This is not to say that orchestral music can't sound good on narrow dispersion speakers, and ultimately it is a matter of preference. A lot of people prefer narrow dispersion for pop music, but I think that since pop music soudnstage is usually very artificial and unnatural, that either soundstage is fine, and it's again a matter of preference.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
A single 2.5" con mid range is just bad design period and not a sensible design. It just is not. This is pure marketing to get to those who believe three way is better then two way because it is a higher number. The fact is the speaker would be cheaper and better as a two way.

Shady, I'm afraid you have not accumulated a sufficient number of years of the Lord, to develop the cynicism required.
I guess a 2.5" mid could work on a desktop speaker system but only for close up use. In a room at normal distances, it would definitely be useless, even though many manufacturers have tried to use them.

People can try to argue with Physics, but they'll always lose.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, without philosophy there would be no science. ;)

Plus I think it's an important distinction. I see cynics accused of being too skeptical sometimes. The way I see it you can't be too skeptical (that's like saying someone can be "too correct"), but you can be surly and negative about something without having all the facts. That's when it becomes cynicism.
I have heard that critics live in the city, skeptics live in the suburbs and cynics live farther out.

I always thought that being negative without having the facts was called 'being wrong'.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I have heard that critics live in the city, skeptics live in the suburbs and cynics live farther out.

I always thought that being negative without having the facts was called 'being wrong'.
You can be right even if you don't have all the facts.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
You can be right even if you don't have all the facts.
But that usually happens because the person is smart enough to correctly interpret what they have, or they made a lucky guess. It's good to be lucky.
 

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