Speaker shopping musings...

[TLS Guy]

Thank you for your analysis, I appreciate that. I can't help but wonder if the previous generation MA Gold 200 4g with the 4" mid and ribbon tweeter (pictured first) would have been better. I read that they were unhappy with the distortion that occurs towards the mid band with ribbon tweeters, so they moved to the micro pleated design. That speaker line is up to the 7th generation now so there are lots of iterations.

Were you looking at the NRC measurements from SoundStageNetwork? They don't have my exact speaker (Paradigm Studio 20 v5) but they have the Studio 20 v3 and also the Studio 60 v5 which is a tower that adds two woofers. A lot of similarities between the v3 and v5 and I think they both use the G-PAL tweeter so I imagine that the graphs would be similar.

My sitting distance is only 9 ft at the most so I don't need to put a lot of power into them but if you've seen my photos then you know that the room is very far from ideal:

• I've been working on a design for some art panels from GIK Acoustics in Georgia to help with the right wall. Two 2'x4' panels should do the trick. Oddly enough, I have no issues with centre image in 2 channel stereo. You would expect the right wall to reinforce the right side image but the balance is ok. That may have to do with my close proximity, but the left wall being 8 ft over sure can't be helping things.
• As the room is only 12' across, the couch is on the back wall. I might try those panels directly behind me as well, as my head is only 1 to 2 ft away from the back wall.
• The doorway to the left of the left speaker hides a support beam overhead, hence the bump out. That creates a small alcove where the system sits. I do have the speakers further out than in the second photo. In the second photo you can also see a bit of the ceiling duct work, in the worst possible location. I am tempted to apply treatments to the rear face of that bulkhead. If I stand in front of the TV and lean over the cabinet, the sound is very boomy like there is a lot of bass reinforcement.
• I have only had time for one REW measurement and need to get back to that. It showed a nasty drop out in the main listening position around 400 Hz. I need a more detailed analysis of the room to see what I should set as a priority.

Here is a review of your speakers with measurements.

Here is your bass problem.

That is a nasty place to have a hump, in that 100 to 120 Hz range. Those are nasty. I can tell you from experience they really exacerbate room problems.

As I have said before, marketers are largely responsible. If you tune like that, and give that hump, you can claim an f3 around 50 Hz. A design decision to deceive the unwary. If you have followed my posts, you know I generally avoid those extended bass alignments and and that is one reason why. But I don't have to engage in spec. sheet wars.

I'm not high on room treatments. The problem is there is synergy for a bad outcome with problem rooms, and speakers with an off axis response that does not mirror the on axis response well. Really good speakers I find are really room agnostic to a significant degree.

 

[Eppie]

Eppie you've been digging and researching speakers for quite while now. I have a feeling whatever you end up with is going to top of the mark for your dollar. I think your biggest problem is that you already have very good speakers and it makes finding an "upgrade" pretty difficult. I do like your patient, methodical approach tho. I wish I were more patient when I started getting back into it.

Thanks, man. I think you did very well moving from the SVS to the Sierras. Wish I was close enough to give a listen.

I was long convinced that my speakers were average. I did go to Future Shop (Best Buy) first and listen to various brands like Energy, Polk and a few others, and was going to get Paradigm Monitors until my former co-worker who owned the shop recommended the Studios. Immediately preferred them to all the others. Well over my initial budget (I was getting a TV and AVR as well) but he knocked $300 off of the price and offered a new Denon 2310ci at a big discount because a previous customer decided to upgrade and not use it. I think luck was on my side that day. The AVR has been rock solid and while the speakers don't sound quite as good as they did in the show room, I have yet to find something that blows me away and gives me 100% confidence in the upgrade cost. The $1300 I spent in 2010 is $1700 by today's inflation, so not a cheap speaker by any means but still quite a bit less than the Paradigm Founder bookshelf but more than the Premier. There ended up being a lot of value in the Studio line.

Best home system I have heard to date still was my friend's big Magnapans in WI driven by Odyssey mono-blocks. He had a Dianna Krall CD that sounded like the band was right in front of you, live. Not something I'll be able to achieve with my room's acoustics but it is fun to try.

 

[Eppie]

Here is a review of your speakers with measurements.

Here is your bass problem.

That is a nasty place to have a hump, in that 100 to 120 Hz range. Those are nasty. I can tell you from experience they really exacerbate room problems.

As I have said before, marketers are largely responsible. If you tune like that, and give that hump, you can claim an f3 around 50 Hz. A design decision to deceive the unwary. If you have followed my posts, you know I generally avoid those extended bass alignments and and that is one reason why. But I don't have to engage in spec. sheet wars.

I'm not high on room treatments. The problem is there is synergy for a bad outcome with problem rooms, and speakers with an off axis response that does not mirror the on axis response well. Really good speakers I find are really room agnostic to a significant degree.

Thank you! That's a really detailed review. I should have been able to find that one. If it's better to reduce the humps than it is to try and raise the dips, then some of that might be manageable. Interesting how the grill affects the measurements.

 

[Billy106]

I'm in Markham area....about 2hrs away...

Thanks, man. I think you did very well moving from the SVS to the Sierras. Wish I was close enough to give a listen.

I was long convinced that my speakers were average. I did go to Future Shop (Best Buy) first and listen to various brands like Energy, Polk and a few others, and was going to get Paradigm Monitors until my former co-worker who owned the shop recommended the Studios. Immediately preferred them to all the others. Well over my initial budget (I was getting a TV and AVR as well) but he knocked $300 off of the price and offered a new Denon 2310ci at a big discount because a previous customer decided to upgrade and not use it. I think luck was on my side that day. The AVR has been rock solid and while the speakers don't sound quite as good as they did in the show room, I have yet to find something that blows me away and gives me 100% confidence in the upgrade cost. The $1300 I spent in 2010 is $1700 by today's inflation, so not a cheap speaker by any means but still quite a bit less than the Paradigm Founder bookshelf but more than the Premier. There ended up being a lot of value in the Studio line.

Best home system I have heard to date still was my friend's big Magnapans in WI driven by Odyssey mono-blocks. He had a Dianna Krall CD that sounded like the band was right in front of you, live. Not something I'll be able to achieve with my room's acoustics but it is fun to try.

 

[highfigh]

Reminds me of my buddy and his Bose 901s. He set one up in front of a full length curtain and called me up because that channel was way lower in volume all of a sudden. I told him it was the curtain. Even swapped the speaker wires around and swapped the speakers to prove that it was not the amp or speakers but he still didn't believe me. Some people don't want to be educated.

I turned 60 last year but still try and haul stuff around the house like I was 20 and then get a quick dose of reality. Was gifted a band saw recently but fortunately my son is still studying at home and was around to help. Starting to hike more, like 3dB, so at least my endurance is up compared to 2 years ago. Having a desk job has its drawbacks.

Too bad the curtain couldn't be opened easily- just doing that should have immediately shown that it was the cause.

I don't think I would have survived a long-term desk job. Until my knee injury, which doesn't have any chance of a fast recovery, I used to say that I was paid to stay in shape because of the regular requirement to carry fairly heavy things and all of the stairs. One day, my activity monitor showed that I went up/down 41 flights and on other days, it was over 30 or 20 flights- this usually involved carrying things.

 

[highfigh]

Here is a review of your speakers with measurements.

Here is your bass problem.

That is a nasty place to have a hump, in that 100 to 120 Hz range. Those are nasty. I can tell you from experience they really exacerbate room problems.

As I have said before, marketers are largely responsible. If you tune like that, and give that hump, you can claim an f3 around 50 Hz. A design decision to deceive the unwary. If you have followed my posts, you know I generally avoid those extended bass alignments and and that is one reason why. But I don't have to engage in spec. sheet wars.

I'm not high on room treatments. The problem is there is synergy for a bad outcome with problem rooms, and speakers with an off axis response that does not mirror the on axis response well. Really good speakers I find are really room agnostic to a significant degree.

I installed equipment for someone whose friend had recommended Monitor speakers because he has them so, rather than argue with/debate two people, I did what was asked- beat the quote from the other store. The dining room got skinny towers with a small sub that sort of blend into the corners because the room has Walnut paneling and the living room has a pair of larger towers which struck me as being a bit bass-heavy, although it does go pretty deep. That room is about 16'Wx26'Lx10'H with a large opening at one end and a 6' opening near one side corner, so it's not affected in the same way as a smaller, closed room. They seem bright to me, as did the speakers owned by the person who recommended this brand (I had done some work for him, too)- Monitor wouldn't be my first choice.

 

[Eppie]

I'm in Markham area....about 2hrs away...

I'd like to stop by Bay Bloor Radio someday for fun. They have an interesting selection. A lot of B&W but they also have Sonus Faber, Totem, Dali and Golden Ear.

 

[Eppie]

@highfigh My boss would walk the deposits to the bank every day to keep in shape. He lived to 90 and was a great man. I know that the desk job is bad for my health but the hiking over the last two years has helped. Need to start biking to work again. Hope your knee doesn't take too long to heal. A lot of guys my age are getting knees and hips done but often it's from playing hockey.

I was considering the Monitors because they sounded better than the Atom and Titan bookshelves at the time and none of the big box store speakers stood out to me, although Energy had some decent models at the higher end. There was nothing in between the Monitor and Studio like there is now. With the Monitor, Premier, Founder and Persona Paradigm has a wider selection.

 

[Billy106]

Sounds like a fun trip...if motivated while in the GTA....your welcome to come by....just send me an email in advance...my door is open. If you enjoy the Studios....you might like the Ascends...

I'd like to stop by Bay Bloor Radio someday for fun. They have an interesting selection. A lot of B&W but they also have Sonus Faber, Totem, Dali and Golden Ear.

 

[shadyJ]

Here is a review of your speakers with measurements.

Here is your bass problem.

That is a nasty place to have a hump, in that 100 to 120 Hz range. Those are nasty. I can tell you from experience they really exacerbate room problems.

As I have said before, marketers are largely responsible. If you tune like that, and give that hump, you can claim an f3 around 50 Hz. A design decision to deceive the unwary. If you have followed my posts, you know I generally avoid those extended bass alignments and and that is one reason why. But I don't have to engage in spec. sheet wars.

I'm not high on room treatments. The problem is there is synergy for a bad outcome with problem rooms, and speakers with an off axis response that does not mirror the on axis response well. Really good speakers I find are really room agnostic to a significant degree.

The way John Atkinson measures speakers always gives the bass a boost in that range. He notes as such in his review, but he does say that there may still be a rise in that region, although not as much as his graph depicts. It's hard to say how severe it would be. I would not want a 5dB peak in mid-bass as is shown in that graph, but I could live with a 2dB peak there.

 

[Eppie]

The way John Atkinson measures speakers always gives the bass a boost in that range. He notes as such in his review, but he does say that there may still be a rise in that region, although not as much as his graph depicts. It's hard to say how severe it would be. I would not want a 5dB peak in mid-bass as is shown in that graph, but I could live with a 2dB peak there.

Have you had the opportunity to hear the Monitor Audio Gold, the 5G or newer in particular with the smaller mid and micro pleated diaphram tweeter? I was being pretty polite when I told the rep that they were not for me. Compared the JBL HDI they were down right bad. Not something I expected in that price range. I agree with your assessment on the JBL HDI though. Very nice sounding tower.

 

[shadyJ]

Have you had the opportunity to hear the Monitor Audio Gold, the 5G or newer in particular with the smaller mid and micro pleated diaphram tweeter? I was being pretty polite when I told the rep that they were not for me. Compared the JBL HDI they were down right bad. Not something I expected in that price range. I agree with your assessment on the JBL HDI though. Very nice sounding tower.

I don't recall hearing that model, but I have heard many other Monitor speakers that I thought were fine. Keep in mind it could be a set-up issue. There may be something wrong that isn't due to the speaker.

 

[Eppie]

I don't recall hearing that model, but I have heard many other Monitor speakers that I thought were fine. Keep in mind it could be a set-up issue. There may be something wrong that isn't due to the speaker.

I suspected that something might have been awry with the setup, but the JBLs were placed in the same location, same toe-in, same equipment. If had more time I would have tried the Silvers for comparison. Another day maybe.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't recall hearing that model, but I have heard many other Monitor speakers that I thought were fine. Keep in mind it could be a set-up issue. There may be something wrong that isn't due to the speaker.

Shady, that is a single 2.5" cone mid crossed at 650 Hz and 3.5 KHz. I am sure you know there is no 2.5" coned driver on the planet, that will not have serious dynamic range compression and or high distortion at any realistic power level. The designers clearly have not devoted enough power resources to that power band. What Eppie reported is predicable and to be expected.

 

[shadyJ]

Shady, that is a single 2.5" cone mid crossed at 650 Hz and 3.5 KHz. I am sure you know there is no 2.5" coned driver on the planet, that will not have serious dynamic range compression and or high distortion at any realistic power level. The designers clearly have not devoted enough power resources to that power band. What Eppie reported is predicable and to be expected.

"Realistic power level" is the key phrase in your sentence. I don't think most people would listen at the levels that you do. The Monitor speakers very likely have an adequate dynamic range for most people. Also, room size and distance from speaker also play a role in that. If you are in a smaller room and aren't too far from the speaker, I think that they could get quite loud indeed. I do agree that for live sound levels in a medium to large room, that small midrange isn't going to cut it.

 

[lovinthehd]

"Realistic power level" is the key phrase in your sentence. I don't think most people would listen at the levels that you do. The Monitor speakers very likely have an adequate dynamic range for most people. Also, room size and distance from speaker also play a role in that. If you are in a smaller room and aren't too far from the speaker, I think that they could get quite loud indeed. I do agree that for live sound levels in a medium to large room, that small midrange isn't going to cut it.

You saying ol' TLS is rocking out at high spl? With actual modern music?

 

[shadyJ]

You saying ol' TLS is rocking out at high spl? With actual modern music?

As I recall, he likes orchestral music at live sound levels. That is a very tough load for most home audio speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

As I recall, he likes orchestral music at live sound levels. That is a very tough load for most home audio speakers.

Haven't seen the spl levels....would like to.

ps ya know, curmudgeon comparisons and all that

 

[highfigh]

@highfigh My boss would walk the deposits to the bank every day to keep in shape. He lived to 90 and was a great man. I know that the desk job is bad for my health but the hiking over the last two years has helped. Need to start biking to work again. Hope your knee doesn't take too long to heal. A lot of guys my age are getting knees and hips done but often it's from playing hockey.

I was considering the Monitors because they sounded better than the Atom and Titan bookshelves at the time and none of the big box store speakers stood out to me, although Energy had some decent models at the higher end. There was nothing in between the Monitor and Studio like there is now. With the Monitor, Premier, Founder and Persona Paradigm has a wider selection.

"too long" came and went- I injured it on June 1, last year and PT was only mildly effective- I have made more progress on my own.

Does anyone carry PSB speakers near you?

It's too bad B&M stores aren't more common, but people decided that reading about the equipment they might want is better than auditioning it. Didn't want to pay the cost of having a local place with a wide selection. To be fair, a lot of dealers shot themselves in the foot by hiring people who didn't know anything and then, to make things worse, they weren't trained properly.

 

[TLS Guy]

"Realistic power level" is the key phrase in your sentence. I don't think most people would listen at the levels that you do. The Monitor speakers very likely have an adequate dynamic range for most people. Also, room size and distance from speaker also play a role in that. If you are in a smaller room and aren't too far from the speaker, I think that they could get quite loud indeed. I do agree that for live sound levels in a medium to large room, that small midrange isn't going to cut it.

A single 2.5" con mid range is just bad design period and not a sensible design. It just is not. This is pure marketing to get to those who believe three way is better then two way because it is a higher number. The fact is the speaker would be cheaper and better as a two way.

Shady, I'm afraid you have not accumulated a sufficient number of years of the Lord, to develop the cynicism required.