Speaker shopping musings...

Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
I had a fun and interesting day today and was looking forward to sharing some thoughts and experiences. Some technical info, a fair bit of personal opinion and some recommendations to follow, so if you have a few minutes to spare I hope you enjoy the read and maybe find some useful information along the way.

This started with my coming across an ad for Monitor Audio Gold 200 4G speakers. These retail for about C$6900 ($5475 US). These have the RST (Rigid Surface Technology) coated drivers and coated ribbon tweeter. The asking price was C$3250 in near mint condition and I was seriously thinking of making the 7 hour drive to Montreal to check them out. Monitor Audio Gold was a dream speaker in my eyes. The gloss ebony finish is gorgeous (and a C$1200 option).

Before making such a long journey, I thought I would check Audio Connexion in Burlington as they often have used and B-stock speakers on sale and they are only 1.5 hours away. Sure enough, they had a pair of C-stock Monitor Audio Gold 200 5G speakers also in ebony, for C$4500 ($3570 US). The 5G has woofers that are 1" larger than the 4G, a redesigned smaller mid and a micro pleated driver (MPD) for the tweeter, which borrows tech from the Platinum line. The crossover on the 4G is 2500Hz while on the 5G it is 3500Hz which should improve the mid-range by getting further out of the vocal band. By all rights, the 5G should be a significant improvement over the 4G.

So I talked things over with my wife and we decided to drop her off at the Ikea while I speaker shop. Audio Connexion is just off the 403 highway and pretty easy to get to (about 5 miles from the Ikea). A good size show room with a decent selection and several listening rooms. I asked about the 5G and they were right in the front room. They retail for C$7500 but had a crack in the top right front corner, hence the discount to C$4500. It looked repairable to me, so I asked to demo them. They set them up in a room similar in size to mine, about 12'x16', but my setup is across the width while theirs was along the length (speakers on the short wall). Carpeted floor, single couch and some sound absorbers along the left and right walls (not too much treatment). This room had modest gear with a streamer connected to an integrated amp, which was fine by me as my AVR is modest as well. There were more exotic components in the bigger rooms. Music selection was through Apple Airplay on a tablet.

This is where I would like to summarize how I go about speaker testing. I listen to mostly progressive rock, classic rock and some alt and electronic rock/pop, but I mix in other genres as well. A distorted guitar can sound ok on any speaker, so I try and pick tracks with natural components as well, like acoustic guitar, piano, standup bass and various percussion instruments. I also try and play a lot of tracks that I am very familiar with so that I know what to look for. I played electric bass in a band for several years so I know very well what a bass guitar and drums should sound like.
  • For a general overall impression, I started with a new favorite, Porcupine Tree: Arriving Somewhere But Not here. Nice balance of instruments, a clear vocal track and I can pick out every piece of the drum kit.
  • A go to album for me is Thomas Dolby: Aliens Ate My Buick. So much goodness! Key to Her Ferrari is a James Bond style number with bongos and piano layered behind the guitar and walking bass line, followed by Airhead which is a really fun pop number with a lot going on. Very tight rhythm and keys accented with punchy slap bass, synth fills and horns. Funny lyrics too. Pulp Culture has an amazing slap bass sound and a snare drum that really pops. Ability to Swing starts with synth and finger snaps and some very clean guitar work. Budapest by Blimp has that fantastic punchy bass sound again with some beautiful keyboards and softly sung vocals. This album covers a lot of bases and is one of my favorites.
  • For female vocals I like Kate Bush. Sensual World is a nicely recorded album, but Wuthering Heights from The Kick Inside is a nice test as it starts with piano and vocal and adds layers of instruments as it progresses.
  • One of my favorite albums is Yes: Close to the Edge. I am very familiar with the sound of Chris Squire's Rickenbacker bass and the music is quite complex. The title track and Siberian Khatru are great examples of that signature sound and Bill Bruford's amazing drumming. And You and I starts with acoustic guitar which is joined by bass and triangle and then Jon Anderson's vocals. A couple minutes of each song to note those important aspects.
  • Dire Straits make great recordings and Mark Knopfler's guitar work is impeccable. Sultans of Swing is a song that most should be familiar with.
  • Dianna Krall's albums sound wonderful and even if you don't like jazz they are a great test. A simple arrangement of piano, standup bass, drums and vocal let you listen carefully to each instrument. You should be able to hear the pluck of the strings, the tap of each symbol, the dynamics in her piano and the vocals are beautiful too. I chose Temptation for reference.
  • Crowded House: Into Temptation is great for the vocals, cello and brush work on the drums.
  • This could be a long list so I will just mention Road Runners Volume 1 from auto hifi. A compilation CD put together by an Austrian or German hifi magazine. If you like 80's and 90's rock and pop, each track offers something different. Aquamarine is a beautiful instrumental track from Santana. Bakers Street has that iconic saxophone. Five Miles Out by Michael Oldfield has some very distinctive drum tracks and lots of effects on the vocals which require clear playback to be understood. Joe Jackson's Steppin' Out has layered piano and high bell-like tones (xylophone or glockenspiel). Walking on the Chinese Wall by Philip Bailey has a wonderful wall of sound that fills the entire room. Mr Blue Sky by ELO has a loud bell and very unique vocal mix spread across the stage for the chorus. Some of the remaining pop tracks have very punchy synth bass and drum tracks. Great assortment to test various aspects of a speaker.
So how did the Gold 200 5G sound? To be honest, I went in with high expectations as this was a $7500 speaker compared to my $1600 bookshelves (2010 dollars). Surprisingly I was very disappointed. The one thing I was hoping for was a more realistic vocal sound but this was primarily where they lacked. Hard to describe in words, but with my current speakers the instruments and vocals sound like they are the same distance away on one stage. With the Gold 200 the vocals sounded distant, like they were 10 feet behind the instruments; not lifelike at all. The highs were also very soft. I had to strain to try and hear symbols. When the bass got deep, these small towers provided a good amount of bass, but the mid bass had no punch. The slap bass in Thomas Dolby sounded flat. I spent a good hour trying different tracks to give these speakers a fair shake, but the only song that sounded any decent was Dianna Krall, Temptation. I was entirely underwhelmed and thanked the sales rep but told him that I just wasn't feeling it and the speakers were not doing it for me.

Close to the Audio Monitors they also had a used pair of JBL HDI-3600 towers, with their well known 1" compression horn-loaded tweeter and three 8" woofers in a 2 1/2 way design. I had read good things about this line (including in the forums) and asked if I could demo them as well. Retail is C$5000 ($4000 US) and these were in mint condition gloss black for C$3000. (They are smaller than they look in this photo.)

Well, colour me a JBL fan! These were really nice to listen to. Vocals were much more natural, a better centered image, nice deep bass and more detailed (pronounced) high end. I played most of the same tracks for about an hour again with no ear fatigue. I can see why people like these. They are just big black boxes with the grills on but with the grills off in gloss they are quite nice. BTW, for both speaker brands I moved side to side on the couch, sat forward and back and also walked around the room. The sound did vary noticeably with position so I had to wonder if there was something up with that room. Over all very impressed though. I seriously thought about bringing them home with me and I can heartily recommend that people check these out if in their price range. JBL makes a great centre speaker as well so a good option for home theatre too.

I did not want to impulse buy, so, tempted as I was, I told the rep that I really liked them and would be in touch soon if I decided to go ahead. I have not yet listened to the Paradigm Founders or Premiers and for that amount of money I wanted to do proper research.

On personal reflection, I learned an important lesson today. If you had asked me a week ago if there were speakers that I would purchase without hearing them, I would have said "Yes, there are a few.". I thought that at a certain level / price point there are several speakers that would all sound great. I thought that the Monitor Audio Gold was one of them. Boy, was I wrong. There may be plenty of positive reviews, but they are definitely not for me. The lesson here is that unless you absolutely do not have the ability to demo speakers or cannot afford to buy and sell several times over, make the effort to hear as many brands as you can because the final choice is a very personal one.

After arriving home, the first thing I wanted to do was listen to my Paradigm Studio 20 while the memory of the JBLs was still fresh. The result was again rather surprising. To keep things fair, I set the AVR for Direct Stereo (no Audyssey or subwoofer, same as the demo room). Started with Thomas Dolby and there was that full punchy bass that I love coming from my bookshelves. I've had subwoofers for a while but these speakers still surprise me with their bass output for their size. Not only that, but the vocals were clear and right in front of me where I expected them. The soft vocal in Budapest By Blimp with the soft keys and simple punchy bass line is just a joy to listen to for me. Kate Bush's vocals were nice and clear. With Porcupine Tree and other tracks I could clearly hear every symbol. I could hear the steady tap of the high-hat punctuated by the occasional ring of the ride symbol or a distinctive crash symbol and the symbols had different placement across the sound stage. My room has some challenging acoustics, with the side wall, bulkheads and recessed cabinet, but the Paradigms still sounded better than the other two rather expensive speakers that I tried out today. I still find the upper mids in the vocals a little hot and classical music does not do well in this room, so I was banking on better speakers making a noticeable improvement. I discovered instead why I bought these in the first place. They really are a great little speaker. Sounds like I may be better off tweaking the room after all and maybe trying a little EQ to smoothen things out.

It was still fun to get out and visit a hifi shop for the first time in a while. They said I could bring my speakers and do an A/B test in the big room if I wanted, which would be a much more fair comparison of course. Might take them up on that offer. They carry FYNE, JBL, Triangle Borea, KLH, and higher end Klipsch as well. And if you made it this far, thank you and hopefully you found it mildly entertaining.
 
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XEagleDriver

XEagleDriver

Audioholic Chief
Thanks for the rundown and nice write up
These days most of us do not have any decent audio store to go to, you are lucky, not to mention a patient wife.
- BTW, how much did her IKEA excursion cost you, LOL?
Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for the rundown and nice write up
These days most of us do not have any decent audio store to go to, you are lucky, not to mention a patient wife.
- BTW, how much did her IKEA excursion cost you, LOL?
Cheers,
XEagleDriver
My wife just took photos of possible stereo cabinets for the living room and bought some small items from Jysk. Biggest expense was lunch at the Skyway Diner. ;) Also shopped at the big Sail outlet as I need a good hiking backpack for our up and coming hiking trip. First proper vacation in over two years, although we did get to visit our daughter out east last summer.

We still have two decent HiFi shops in London, Ontario. Target HiFi and London Audio, both long time retailers. I bought my Project turntable from Target HiFi (no relation to Target in the US). London Audio recently moved to a new bigger building that I have yet to visit. They concentrate on complete home theatre solutions and home automation and are the local Paradigm dealer. We also have a 2001 Audio Video location but they are more of a consumer store like Best Buy. They carry starter lines from various brands like Paradigm Monitor, KEF Q series, PSB Alpha and Klipsch, although they advertise the KEF R line as well. It's a 2 hour drive to Toronto but the "Big Smoke" has a number of good audio stores, like Bay Bloor Radio. That title should give a clue as to how long they have been around.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
For anyone that is interested, I have created a Youtube playlist of my song selections. If there is a way to manually create a Spotify playlist without Spotify, send me a link to the how-to. Sorry if some of these are not high definition on Youtube. Try and listen to a high-def copy if you can as it does make a difference. Let me know if there is anything in particular that appeals to you.

Eppie's demo playlist

EDIT: You can not adjust audio settings on YouTube videos, but I think YouTube Music is limited to 256k bits/second, which should be ok. If you have YouTube Music, click on your avatar, go into settings and make sure Playback / Audio Quality is set to High. This link should provide the best quality playback.

Eppie's demo playlist on YouTube Music
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I had a fun and interesting day today and was looking forward to sharing some thoughts and experiences. Some technical info, a fair bit of personal opinion and some recommendations to follow, so if you have a few minutes to spare I hope you enjoy the read and maybe find some useful information along the way.

This started with my coming across an ad for Monitor Audio Gold 200 4G speakers. These retail for about C$6900 ($5475 US). These have the RST (Rigid Surface Technology) coated drivers and coated ribbon tweeter. The asking price was C$3250 in near mint condition and I was seriously thinking of making the 7 hour drive to Montreal to check them out. Monitor Audio Gold was a dream speaker in my eyes. The gloss ebony finish is gorgeous (and a C$1200 option).

Before making such a long journey, I thought I would check Audio Connexion in Burlington as they often have used and B-stock speakers on sale and they are only 1.5 hours away. Sure enough, they had a pair of C-stock Monitor Audio Gold 200 5G speakers also in ebony, for C$4500 ($3570 US). The 5G has woofers that are 1" larger than the 4G, a redesigned smaller mid and a micro pleated driver (MPD) for the tweeter, which borrows tech from the Platinum line. The crossover on the 4G is 2500Hz while on the 5G it is 3500Hz which should improve the mid-range by getting further out of the vocal band. By all rights, the 5G should be a significant improvement over the 4G.

So I talked things over with my wife and we decided to drop her off at the Ikea while I speaker shop. Audio Connexion is just off the 403 highway and pretty easy to get to (about 5 miles from the Ikea). A good size show room with a decent selection and several listening rooms. I asked about the 5G and they were right in the front room. They retail for C$7500 but had a crack in the top right front corner, hence the discount to C$4500. It looked repairable to me, so I asked to demo them. They set them up in a room similar in size to mine, about 12'x16', but my setup is across the width while theirs was along the length (speakers on the short wall). Carpeted floor, single couch and some sound absorbers along the left and right walls (not too much treatment). This room had modest gear with a streamer connected to an integrated amp, which was fine by me as my AVR is modest as well. There were more exotic components in the bigger rooms. Music selection was through Apple Airplay on a tablet.

This is where I would like to summarize how I go about speaker testing. I listen to mostly progressive rock, classic rock and some alt and electronic rock/pop, but I mix in other genres as well. A distorted guitar can sound ok on any speaker, so I try and pick tracks with natural components as well, like acoustic guitar, piano, standup bass and various percussion instruments. I also try and play a lot of tracks that I am very familiar with so that I know what to look for. I played electric bass in a band for several years so I know very well what a bass guitar and drums should sound like.
  • For a general overall impression, I started with a new favorite, Porcupine Tree: Arriving Somewhere But Not here. Nice balance of instruments, a clear vocal track and I can pick out every piece of the drum kit.
  • A go to album for me is Thomas Dolby: Aliens Ate My Buick. So much goodness! Key to Her Ferrari is a James Bond style number with bongos and piano layered behind the guitar and walking bass line, followed by Airhead which is a really fun pop number with a lot going on. Very tight rhythm and keys accented with punchy slap bass, synth fills and horns. Funny lyrics too. Pulp Culture has an amazing slap bass sound and a snare drum that really pops. Ability to Swing starts with synth and finger snaps and some very clean guitar work. Budapest by Blimp has that fantastic punchy bass sound again with some beautiful keyboards and softly sung vocals. This album covers a lot of bases and is one of my favorites.
  • For female vocals I like Kate Bush. Sensual World is a nicely recorded album, but Wuthering Heights from The Kick Inside is a nice test as it starts with piano and vocal and adds layers of instruments as it progresses.
  • One of my favorite albums is Yes: Close to the Edge. I am very familiar with the sound of Chris Squire's Rickenbacker bass and the music is quite complex. The title track and Siberian Khatru are great examples of that signature sound and Bill Bruford's amazing drumming. And You and I starts with acoustic guitar which is joined by bass and triangle and then Jon Anderson's vocals. A couple minutes of each song to note those important aspects.
  • Dire Straits make great recordings and Mark Knopfler's guitar work is impeccable. Sultans of Swing is a song that most should be familiar with.
  • Dianna Krall's albums sound wonderful and even if you don't like jazz they are a great test. A simple arrangement of piano, standup bass, drums and vocal let you listen carefully to each instrument. You should be able to hear the pluck of the strings, the tap of each symbol, the dynamics in her piano and the vocals are beautiful too. I chose Temptation for reference.
  • Crowded House: Into Temptation is great for the vocals, cello and brush work on the drums.
  • This could be a long list so I will just mention Road Runners Volume 1 from auto hifi. A compilation CD put together by an Austrian or German hifi magazine. If you like 80's and 90's rock and pop, each track offers something different. Aquamarine is a beautiful instrumental track from Santana. Bakers Street has that iconic saxophone. Five Miles Out by Michael Oldfield has some very distinctive drum tracks and lots of effects on the vocals which require clear playback to be understood. Joe Jackson's Steppin' Out has layered piano and high bell-like tones (xylophone or glockenspiel). Walking on the Chinese Wall by Philip Bailey has a wonderful wall of sound that fills the entire room. Mr Blue Sky by ELO has a loud bell and very unique vocal mix spread across the stage for the chorus. Some of the remaining pop tracks have very punchy synth bass and drum tracks. Great assortment to test various aspects of a speaker.
So how did the Gold 200 5G sound? To be honest, I went in with high expectations as this was a $7500 speaker compared to my $1600 bookshelves (2010 dollars). Surprisingly I was very disappointed. The one thing I was hoping for was a more realistic vocal sound but this was primarily where they lacked. Hard to describe in words, but with my current speakers the instruments and vocals sound like they are the same distance away on one stage. With the Gold 200 the vocals sounded distant, like they were 10 feet behind the instruments; not lifelike at all. The highs were also very soft. I had to strain to try and hear symbols. When the bass got deep, these small towers provided a good amount of bass, but the mid bass had no punch. The slap bass in Thomas Dolby sounded flat. I spent a good hour trying different tracks to give these speakers a fair shake, but the only song that sounded any decent was Dianna Krall, Temptation. I was entirely underwhelmed and thanked the sales rep but told him that I just wasn't feeling it and the speakers were not doing it for me.

Close to the Audio Monitors they also had a used pair of JBL HDI-3600 towers, with their well known 1" compression horn-loaded tweeter and three 8" woofers in a 2 1/2 way design. I had read good things about this line (including in the forums) and asked if I could demo them as well. Retail is C$5000 ($4000 US) and these were in mint condition gloss black for C$3000. (They are smaller than they look in this photo.)

Well, colour me a JBL fan! These were really nice to listen to. Vocals were much more natural, a better centered image, nice deep bass and more detailed (pronounced) high end. I played most of the same tracks for about an hour again with no ear fatigue. I can see why people like these. They are just big black boxes with the grills on but with the grills off in gloss they are quite nice. BTW, for both speaker brands I moved side to side on the couch, sat forward and back and also walked around the room. The sound did vary noticeably with position so I had to wonder if there was something up with that room. Over all very impressed though. I seriously thought about bringing them home with me and I can heartily recommend that people check these out if in their price range. JBL makes a great centre speaker as well so a good option for home theatre too.

I did not want to impulse buy, so, tempted as I was, I told the rep that I really liked them and would be in touch soon if I decided to go ahead. I have not yet listened to the Paradigm Founders or Premiers and for that amount of money I wanted to do proper research.

On personal reflection, I learned an important lesson today. If you had asked me a week ago if there were speakers that I would purchase without hearing them, I would have said "Yes, there are a few.". I thought that at a certain level / price point there are several speakers that would all sound great. I thought that the Monitor Audio Gold was one of them. Boy, was I wrong. There may be plenty of positive reviews, but they are definitely not for me. The lesson here is that unless you absolutely do not have the ability to demo speakers or cannot afford to buy and sell several times over, make the effort to hear as many brands as you can because the final choice is a very personal one.

After arriving home, the first thing I wanted to do was listen to my Paradigm Studio 20 while the memory of the JBLs was still fresh. The result was again rather surprising. To keep things fair, I set the AVR for Direct Stereo (no Audyssey or subwoofer, same as the demo room). Started with Thomas Dolby and there was that full punchy bass that I love coming from my bookshelves. I've had subwoofers for a while but these speakers still surprise me with their bass output for their size. Not only that, but the vocals were clear and right in front of me where I expected them. The soft vocal in Budapest By Blimp with the soft keys and simple punchy bass line is just a joy to listen to for me. Kate Bush's vocals were nice and clear. With Porcupine Tree and other tracks I could clearly hear every symbol. I could hear the steady tap of the high-hat punctuated by the occasional ring of the ride symbol or a distinctive crash symbol and the symbols had different placement across the sound stage. My room has some challenging acoustics, with the side wall, bulkheads and recessed cabinet, but the Paradigms still sounded better than the other two rather expensive speakers that I tried out today. I still find the upper mids in the vocals a little hot and classical music does not do well in this room, so I was banking on better speakers making a noticeable improvement. I discovered instead why I bought these in the first place. They really are a great little speaker. Sounds like I may be better off tweaking the room after all and maybe trying a little EQ to smoothen things out.

It was still fun to get out and visit a hifi shop for the first time in a while. They said I could bring my speakers and do an A/B test in the big room if I wanted, which would be a much more fair comparison of course. Might take them up on that offer. They carry FYNE, JBL, Triangle Borea, KLH, and higher end Klipsch as well. And if you made it this far, thank you and hopefully you found it mildly entertaining.
In my limited listening to Monitor speakers, I thought they were a bit on the bright side, but that could easily have been the rooms.

Did you move around the room while the music was playing? Would be interested in your perception of the changes in the sound, especially WRT dispersion at lower levels.

I see a Dynaudio speaker behind the JBL- looks like it might be a Special 40- did you listen to those?

I always enjoyed using demo music that made people say "This is really good- who is it?" while looking like a dog that saw something on TV, but didn't understand what it was. When I would tell them who, they almost always asked, "Who?".
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for the rundown and nice write up
These days most of us do not have any decent audio store to go to, you are lucky, not to mention a patient wife.
- BTW, how much did her IKEA excursion cost you, LOL?
Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
I think the cost is less in money and more worrying about whether she found her way out. Then, someone will have to assemble whatever she bought.

"Diagrams? We don't need no stinkin' diagrams!".
 
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Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
In my limited listening to Monitor speakers, I thought they were a bit on the bright side, but that could easily have been the rooms.

Did you move around the room while the music was playing? Would be interested in your perception of the changes in the sound, especially WRT dispersion at lower levels.

I see a Dynaudio speaker behind the JBL- looks like it might be a Special 40- did you listen to those?

I always enjoyed using demo music that made people say "This is really good- who is it?" while looking like a dog that saw something on TV, but didn't understand what it was. When I would tell them who, they almost always asked, "Who?".
I think I mentioned that I moved around in my seat and walked around the room. I could hear some phase differences and the tone would shift in different frequencies as I moved around. I also listened up close to the speaker to try and eliminate some of that. These were definitely not on the bright side, but the sound absorbers on the side walls would have affected that some what.

JBL photo is from another ad, sorry. No Dynaudio, but FYNE, Triangle, JBL, Klipsch and Monitor Audio mostly. Had a pair of tall Missions there as well. I should have snapped some photos. I don't think the sales rep had heard the used JBLs before. He was also surprised at how good they sounded.
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
What a fun experiment. Surprising about the MA Gold disappointing you, tho I'd suspect room acoustics might have been in play too. I've seen lots of positives about the HDI series too.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think I mentioned that I moved around in my seat and walked around the room. I could hear some phase differences and the tone would shift in different frequencies as I moved around. I also listened up close to the speaker to try and eliminate some of that. These were definitely not on the bright side, but the sound absorbers on the side walls would have affected that some what.

JBL photo is from another ad, sorry. No Dynaudio, but FYNE, Traingle and Monitor Audio mostly. Had a pair of tall Missions there as well. I should have snapped some photos. I don't think the sales rep had heard the JBLs before. He was also surprised at how good they sounded.
Speakers that are 'modeled' and based on pro sound equipment definitely have a different sound- call it 'more live', maybe? I worked for a pro audio contractor and they had used JBL Pro speakers in many jobs. One day, I heard music coming from the manager's office and I looked in to see what equipment was there/ The speakers were pro models, so I asked if I could bring a CD in that was more familiar- I used Seconds Out, by Genesis. This was in '97, so it was the original version but it really captured the live sound of the show. However, this can be less than great if the recording/mastering isn't good.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
What a fun experiment. Surprising about the MA Gold disappointing you, tho I'd suspect room acoustics might have been in play too. I've seen lots of positives about the HDI series too.
This makes me wonder how they arrived at the type and amount of treatment used in that room. I listened to a pair of Golden Ear Tritons at a local shop and I was not impressed. They had a curtain behind the speakers, but nothing else to affect the acoustics. They also had the listening position too close- they sounded a ot better after I moved the chair backward about 3 feet. This is a place that presents itself as a 'higher end' to 'high end' shop. They sell good equipment, but in the 45+ years in this business, I don't remember going into a house where they had installed anything.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
What a fun experiment. Surprising about the MA Gold disappointing you, tho I'd suspect room acoustics might have been in play too. I've seen lots of positives about the HDI series too.
I was very surprised at the sound of the MA Gold. They sounded like $500 towers, not $7500. They were heavily discounted due to one crack in a corner, but the other speaker was mint. If the damage was an issue, then one speaker should have sounded different from the other. They also had MA Silver 300 there. I wish that I had time to listen to those in case it just happened to be that one pair that was off.

@highfigh The room was small to medium. I estimated at 12x16, maybe a bit larger, but close to my room dimensions. There were four rectangular acoustic panels on each side wall, mid height. The speakers were 4 ft from the back wall and about 3 ft from the sides which should have been a fairly neutral position. The JBLs were in the same position, both pairs toed in slightly aiming about 3 ft over from my seating position.

If the JBLs had been lackluster, I could have blamed the room, but the difference was night and day. I used the same tracks and tried different seating positions, different volume levels and walked about the room. I tried my best to eliminate any factors that might have affected my evaluation. I still wonder if something was off with either the speakers or positioning. It just didn't make sense that such a well regarded brand and high end model would sound that bad. As I mentioned, though, the JBL HDIs in the same room sounded very good. Good enough that if I did not own speakers I would drop $3000 on them. I really wish the store was in my town so that I could take them home to try out. Too many variables between my home and the store's setup.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I was very surprised at the sound of the MA Gold. They sounded like $500 towers, not $7500. They were heavily discounted due to one crack in a corner, but the other speaker was mint. If the damage was an issue, then one speaker should have sounded different from the other. They also had MA Silver 300 there. I wish that I had time to listen to those in case it just happened to be that one pair that was off.

@highfigh The room was small to medium. I estimated at 12x16, maybe a bit larger, but close to my room dimensions. There were four rectangular acoustic panels on each side wall, mid height. The speakers were 4 ft from the back wall and about 3 ft from the sides which should have been a fairly neutral position. The JBLs were in the same position, both pairs toed in slightly aiming about 3 ft over from my seating position.

If the JBLs had been lackluster, I could have blamed the room, but the difference was night and day. I used the same tracks and tried different seating positions, different volume levels and walked about the room. I tried my best to eliminate any factors that might have affected my evaluation. I still wonder if something was off with either the speakers or positioning. It just didn't make sense that such a well regarded brand and high end model would sound that bad. As I mentioned, though, the JBL HDIs in the same room sounded very good. Good enough that if I did not own speakers I would drop $3000 on them. I really wish the store was in my town so that I could take them home to try out. Too many variables between my home and the store's setup.
It could very well have been the room- I would bet that the JBL dispersion pattern is very different from the Monitor's dome tweeter but JBL didn't bother to include anything about this in their specs. They really need to show more usable info, so people can make a more informed decision- maybe the info doesn't need to be as much or as detailed as what they offer for their pro/commercial speakers, but....
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
It could very well have been the room- I would bet that the JBL dispersion pattern is very different from the Monitor's dome tweeter but JBL didn't bother to include anything about this in their specs. They really need to show more usable info, so people can make a more informed decision- maybe the info doesn't need to be as much or as detailed as what they offer for their pro/commercial speakers, but....
Which is why I question the sound absorbing panels on the side walls. Manufacturers try and design an even off axis response so that the side wall reflections blend in well with what is radiated directly. How did those panels affect the over all response? The sound did seem to change as I moved around. More so for the MAs and more than in my home setup. Amir did test the JBL HDI-3600:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-hdi-3600-speaker-review.13027/

There's a dip around 2k and vertical dispersion his issues but otherwise pretty decent. Seems to support what I heard. The vocals were nice but not very forward and moving about the room had a lot of impact.

Can't find measurements for the Gold 200 but the 5G is the first version that went from the ribbon tweeter to the micro pleated driver. The Gold 100 5G seemed to have its issues.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
FWIW https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/jbl-hdi-3800
Haha... I had that ASR review in the compose window when you posted. The 3600 does have a slightly different sound than the 3800 but I can see why James liked the 3800. It would have been interesting to see a vertical polar map as that was brought up in the ASR article. I agree with James that this is a very nice sounding speaker and the 3600 probably has less pronounced bass than what he found in the 3800. If I were to move my Paradigms upstairs, I would consider the JBL HDIs for my home theatre system.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I had a fun and interesting day today and was looking forward to sharing some thoughts and experiences. Some technical info, a fair bit of personal opinion and some recommendations to follow, so if you have a few minutes to spare I hope you enjoy the read and maybe find some useful information along the way.

This started with my coming across an ad for Monitor Audio Gold 200 4G speakers. These retail for about C$6900 ($5475 US). These have the RST (Rigid Surface Technology) coated drivers and coated ribbon tweeter. The asking price was C$3250 in near mint condition and I was seriously thinking of making the 7 hour drive to Montreal to check them out. Monitor Audio Gold was a dream speaker in my eyes. The gloss ebony finish is gorgeous (and a C$1200 option).

Before making such a long journey, I thought I would check Audio Connexion in Burlington as they often have used and B-stock speakers on sale and they are only 1.5 hours away. Sure enough, they had a pair of C-stock Monitor Audio Gold 200 5G speakers also in ebony, for C$4500 ($3570 US). The 5G has woofers that are 1" larger than the 4G, a redesigned smaller mid and a micro pleated driver (MPD) for the tweeter, which borrows tech from the Platinum line. The crossover on the 4G is 2500Hz while on the 5G it is 3500Hz which should improve the mid-range by getting further out of the vocal band. By all rights, the 5G should be a significant improvement over the 4G.

So I talked things over with my wife and we decided to drop her off at the Ikea while I speaker shop. Audio Connexion is just off the 403 highway and pretty easy to get to (about 5 miles from the Ikea). A good size show room with a decent selection and several listening rooms. I asked about the 5G and they were right in the front room. They retail for C$7500 but had a crack in the top right front corner, hence the discount to C$4500. It looked repairable to me, so I asked to demo them. They set them up in a room similar in size to mine, about 12'x16', but my setup is across the width while theirs was along the length (speakers on the short wall). Carpeted floor, single couch and some sound absorbers along the left and right walls (not too much treatment). This room had modest gear with a streamer connected to an integrated amp, which was fine by me as my AVR is modest as well. There were more exotic components in the bigger rooms. Music selection was through Apple Airplay on a tablet.

This is where I would like to summarize how I go about speaker testing. I listen to mostly progressive rock, classic rock and some alt and electronic rock/pop, but I mix in other genres as well. A distorted guitar can sound ok on any speaker, so I try and pick tracks with natural components as well, like acoustic guitar, piano, standup bass and various percussion instruments. I also try and play a lot of tracks that I am very familiar with so that I know what to look for. I played electric bass in a band for several years so I know very well what a bass guitar and drums should sound like.
  • For a general overall impression, I started with a new favorite, Porcupine Tree: Arriving Somewhere But Not here. Nice balance of instruments, a clear vocal track and I can pick out every piece of the drum kit.
  • A go to album for me is Thomas Dolby: Aliens Ate My Buick. So much goodness! Key to Her Ferrari is a James Bond style number with bongos and piano layered behind the guitar and walking bass line, followed by Airhead which is a really fun pop number with a lot going on. Very tight rhythm and keys accented with punchy slap bass, synth fills and horns. Funny lyrics too. Pulp Culture has an amazing slap bass sound and a snare drum that really pops. Ability to Swing starts with synth and finger snaps and some very clean guitar work. Budapest by Blimp has that fantastic punchy bass sound again with some beautiful keyboards and softly sung vocals. This album covers a lot of bases and is one of my favorites.
  • For female vocals I like Kate Bush. Sensual World is a nicely recorded album, but Wuthering Heights from The Kick Inside is a nice test as it starts with piano and vocal and adds layers of instruments as it progresses.
  • One of my favorite albums is Yes: Close to the Edge. I am very familiar with the sound of Chris Squire's Rickenbacker bass and the music is quite complex. The title track and Siberian Khatru are great examples of that signature sound and Bill Bruford's amazing drumming. And You and I starts with acoustic guitar which is joined by bass and triangle and then Jon Anderson's vocals. A couple minutes of each song to note those important aspects.
  • Dire Straits make great recordings and Mark Knopfler's guitar work is impeccable. Sultans of Swing is a song that most should be familiar with.
  • Dianna Krall's albums sound wonderful and even if you don't like jazz they are a great test. A simple arrangement of piano, standup bass, drums and vocal let you listen carefully to each instrument. You should be able to hear the pluck of the strings, the tap of each symbol, the dynamics in her piano and the vocals are beautiful too. I chose Temptation for reference.
  • Crowded House: Into Temptation is great for the vocals, cello and brush work on the drums.
  • This could be a long list so I will just mention Road Runners Volume 1 from auto hifi. A compilation CD put together by an Austrian or German hifi magazine. If you like 80's and 90's rock and pop, each track offers something different. Aquamarine is a beautiful instrumental track from Santana. Bakers Street has that iconic saxophone. Five Miles Out by Michael Oldfield has some very distinctive drum tracks and lots of effects on the vocals which require clear playback to be understood. Joe Jackson's Steppin' Out has layered piano and high bell-like tones (xylophone or glockenspiel). Walking on the Chinese Wall by Philip Bailey has a wonderful wall of sound that fills the entire room. Mr Blue Sky by ELO has a loud bell and very unique vocal mix spread across the stage for the chorus. Some of the remaining pop tracks have very punchy synth bass and drum tracks. Great assortment to test various aspects of a speaker.
So how did the Gold 200 5G sound? To be honest, I went in with high expectations as this was a $7500 speaker compared to my $1600 bookshelves (2010 dollars). Surprisingly I was very disappointed. The one thing I was hoping for was a more realistic vocal sound but this was primarily where they lacked. Hard to describe in words, but with my current speakers the instruments and vocals sound like they are the same distance away on one stage. With the Gold 200 the vocals sounded distant, like they were 10 feet behind the instruments; not lifelike at all. The highs were also very soft. I had to strain to try and hear symbols. When the bass got deep, these small towers provided a good amount of bass, but the mid bass had no punch. The slap bass in Thomas Dolby sounded flat. I spent a good hour trying different tracks to give these speakers a fair shake, but the only song that sounded any decent was Dianna Krall, Temptation. I was entirely underwhelmed and thanked the sales rep but told him that I just wasn't feeling it and the speakers were not doing it for me.

Close to the Audio Monitors they also had a used pair of JBL HDI-3600 towers, with their well known 1" compression horn-loaded tweeter and three 8" woofers in a 2 1/2 way design. I had read good things about this line (including in the forums) and asked if I could demo them as well. Retail is C$5000 ($4000 US) and these were in mint condition gloss black for C$3000. (They are smaller than they look in this photo.)

Well, colour me a JBL fan! These were really nice to listen to. Vocals were much more natural, a better centered image, nice deep bass and more detailed (pronounced) high end. I played most of the same tracks for about an hour again with no ear fatigue. I can see why people like these. They are just big black boxes with the grills on but with the grills off in gloss they are quite nice. BTW, for both speaker brands I moved side to side on the couch, sat forward and back and also walked around the room. The sound did vary noticeably with position so I had to wonder if there was something up with that room. Over all very impressed though. I seriously thought about bringing them home with me and I can heartily recommend that people check these out if in their price range. JBL makes a great centre speaker as well so a good option for home theatre too.

I did not want to impulse buy, so, tempted as I was, I told the rep that I really liked them and would be in touch soon if I decided to go ahead. I have not yet listened to the Paradigm Founders or Premiers and for that amount of money I wanted to do proper research.

On personal reflection, I learned an important lesson today. If you had asked me a week ago if there were speakers that I would purchase without hearing them, I would have said "Yes, there are a few.". I thought that at a certain level / price point there are several speakers that would all sound great. I thought that the Monitor Audio Gold was one of them. Boy, was I wrong. There may be plenty of positive reviews, but they are definitely not for me. The lesson here is that unless you absolutely do not have the ability to demo speakers or cannot afford to buy and sell several times over, make the effort to hear as many brands as you can because the final choice is a very personal one.

After arriving home, the first thing I wanted to do was listen to my Paradigm Studio 20 while the memory of the JBLs was still fresh. The result was again rather surprising. To keep things fair, I set the AVR for Direct Stereo (no Audyssey or subwoofer, same as the demo room). Started with Thomas Dolby and there was that full punchy bass that I love coming from my bookshelves. I've had subwoofers for a while but these speakers still surprise me with their bass output for their size. Not only that, but the vocals were clear and right in front of me where I expected them. The soft vocal in Budapest By Blimp with the soft keys and simple punchy bass line is just a joy to listen to for me. Kate Bush's vocals were nice and clear. With Porcupine Tree and other tracks I could clearly hear every symbol. I could hear the steady tap of the high-hat punctuated by the occasional ring of the ride symbol or a distinctive crash symbol and the symbols had different placement across the sound stage. My room has some challenging acoustics, with the side wall, bulkheads and recessed cabinet, but the Paradigms still sounded better than the other two rather expensive speakers that I tried out today. I still find the upper mids in the vocals a little hot and classical music does not do well in this room, so I was banking on better speakers making a noticeable improvement. I discovered instead why I bought these in the first place. They really are a great little speaker. Sounds like I may be better off tweaking the room after all and maybe trying a little EQ to smoothen things out.

It was still fun to get out and visit a hifi shop for the first time in a while. They said I could bring my speakers and do an A/B test in the big room if I wanted, which would be a much more fair comparison of course. Might take them up on that offer. They carry FYNE, JBL, Triangle Borea, KLH, and higher end Klipsch as well. And if you made it this far, thank you and hopefully you found it mildly entertaining.
So, you learned there are dreadful loudspeakers at every price point.

You really should not short list any speaker that does not have reliable third party measurements. If you do, then statistically you are more likely to end up with a bad speaker than a good one.

However with those monitor audio trouble was somewhat predictable. A 2.5" mid crossed at 650, is asking for a poor mid band power response, which I'm sure you identified. I have never been keen on speakers from that quarter. The founder Mo Iqbal had a penchant for spouting nonsense. Monitor Audio is now a Roksan company with manufacture in China.

The JBL speakers on the other hand have had good reviews including a good set of measurements. Your current speakers also measure well, and have had good reviews. They have a good mid band response. There are two problems. It seem they elected for lowest possible F3 and paid the price with an under damped alignment with a 4 db peak in 100 to 120 Hz range. The metal cone tweeter, starts breaking up at 15 KHz and totally looses it above 20 KHz. That is typical of most metal coned tweeters. It is out of the critical range, but to me it does seem to impart a character to the sound, which is why I don't use them.

So, if you are looking to move up from bookshelf speakers, only short list speakers with a really good set of measurements.

If you do that, and the measurements are reliable, the speakers will sound far more similar than different.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
So, you learned there are dreadful loudspeakers at every price point.

You really should not short list any speaker that does not have reliable third party measurements. If you do, then statistically you are more likely to end up with a bad speaker than a good one.

However with those monitor audio trouble was somewhat predictable. A 2.5" mid crossed at 650, is asking for a poor mid band power response, which I'm sure you identified. I have never been keen on speakers from that quarter. The founder Mo Iqbal had a penchant for spouting nonsense. Monitor Audio is now a Roksan company with manufacture in China.

The JBL speakers on the other hand have had good reviews including a good set of measurements. Your current speakers also measure well, and have had good reviews. They have a good mid band response. There are two problems. It seem they elected for lowest possible F3 and paid the price with an under damped alignment with a 4 db peak in 100 to 120 Hz range. The metal cone tweeter, starts breaking up at 15 KHz and totally looses it above 20 KHz. That is typical of most metal coned tweeters. It is out of the critical range, but to me it does seem to impart a character to the sound, which is why I don't use them.

So, if you are looking to move up from bookshelf speakers, only short list speakers with a really good set of measurements.

If you do that, and the measurements are reliable, the speakers will sound far more similar than different.
Thank you for your analysis, I appreciate that. I can't help but wonder if the previous generation MA Gold 200 4g with the 4" mid and ribbon tweeter (pictured first) would have been better. I read that they were unhappy with the distortion that occurs towards the mid band with ribbon tweeters, so they moved to the micro pleated design. That speaker line is up to the 7th generation now so there are lots of iterations.

Were you looking at the NRC measurements from SoundStageNetwork? They don't have my exact speaker (Paradigm Studio 20 v5) but they have the Studio 20 v3 and also the Studio 60 v5 which is a tower that adds two woofers. A lot of similarities between the v3 and v5 and I think they both use the G-PAL tweeter so I imagine that the graphs would be similar.

My sitting distance is only 9 ft at the most so I don't need to put a lot of power into them but if you've seen my photos then you know that the room is very far from ideal:
  • I've been working on a design for some art panels from GIK Acoustics in Georgia to help with the right wall. Two 2'x4' panels should do the trick. Oddly enough, I have no issues with centre image in 2 channel stereo. You would expect the right wall to reinforce the right side image but the balance is ok. That may have to do with my close proximity, but the left wall being 8 ft over sure can't be helping things.
  • As the room is only 12' across, the couch is on the back wall. I might try those panels directly behind me as well, as my head is only 1 to 2 ft away from the back wall.
  • The doorway to the left of the left speaker hides a support beam overhead, hence the bump out. That creates a small alcove where the system sits. I do have the speakers further out than in the second photo. In the second photo you can also see a bit of the ceiling duct work, in the worst possible location. I am tempted to apply treatments to the rear face of that bulkhead. If I stand in front of the TV and lean over the cabinet, the sound is very boomy like there is a lot of bass reinforcement.
  • I have only had time for one REW measurement and need to get back to that. It showed a nasty drop out in the main listening position around 400 Hz. I need a more detailed analysis of the room to see what I should set as a priority.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Which is why I question the sound absorbing panels on the side walls. Manufacturers try and design an even off axis response so that the side wall reflections blend in well with what is radiated directly. How did those panels affect the over all response? The sound did seem to change as I moved around. More so for the MAs and more than in my home setup. Amir did test the JBL HDI-3600:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-hdi-3600-speaker-review.13027/

There's a dip around 2k and vertical dispersion his issues but otherwise pretty decent. Seems to support what I heard. The vocals were nice but not very forward and moving about the room had a lot of impact.

Can't find measurements for the Gold 200 but the 5G is the first version that went from the ribbon tweeter to the micro pleated driver. The Gold 100 5G seemed to have its issues.
Well, the fact that absorption was installed doesn't necessarily mean someone knows how to determine what and how much to use. The place with the Golden Ear speakers didn't do anything more than hang a black curtain that wasn't very heavy and one of the people who worked there has owned a recording studio and worked in audio probably longer than I have- when he had the first studio, he asked if I could bring the RTA from where I worked to check out a problem he was having and as soon as I heard it, my first question was "Did you have to replace a high frequency driver?" and he confirmed it/ He then asked how I knew and I told him that it sounded like the wires had been reversed. We ran the RTA and the crossover notch showed that the wires had been reversed and he was a happy camper after fixing the error.

I know a sale rep who has a very nice system, complete with cables with black boxes on them, cable stands, special cables, expensive power cords that he said reduce amplifier warm up time from a few hours to 20 minutes. He borrowed a record cleaner that he described as "does such a great job that it's like a veil has been lifted". When I explain that most upgraded items are a waste of money and a scam, he just passes it off by saying "It's experiential". His last house had a whole side wall of glass and he was told that he needed to put up some insulation, so he went out and splurged for a couple of sheets of pink foam board behind the curtains. When I went there to listen to his new speakers, the imbalance in absorption drove me nuts, so I put a couple of pillows on the backrest of the sofa and it helped, but it still didn't sound right. He also put every pair of speakers I have seen in that house, in exactly the same spot.

Someone needs to build a black box that analyses sound and has a buzzer with red flashing light to let them know something is wrong because a lot of people in the audio industry can't hear many problems that exist.

WRT "Shipped nearly 200 pounds of speakers and gear yesterday. And today, lifted nearly half as much all over the place to make this review happen"- a total of 200 pounds? Big deal- he should try hauling my a$$ around- I'm a bit of a Clydesdale. 200 pounds total isn't that much. OTOH, with my knee injury, I haven't been lifting much and when I needed to move a rolling tool box in my basement, I also needed to remove the bench model drill press. It seems to have become heavier in the last 20 years- I don't understand what happened- I thought I was still "strong, like bull".
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Eppie you've been digging and researching speakers for quite while now. I have a feeling whatever you end up with is going to top of the mark for your dollar. I think your biggest problem is that you already have very good speakers and it makes finding an "upgrade" pretty difficult. I do like your patient, methodical approach tho. I wish I were more patient when I started getting back into it.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Well, the fact that absorption was installed doesn't necessarily mean someone knows how to determine what and how much to use. The place with the Golden Ear speakers didn't do anything more than hang a black curtain that wasn't very heavy and one of the people who worked there has owned a recording studio and worked in audio probably longer than I have- when he had the first studio, he asked if I could bring the RTA from where I worked to check out a problem he was having and as soon as I heard it, my first question was "Did you have to replace a high frequency driver?" and he confirmed it/ He then asked how I knew and I told him that it sounded like the wires had been reversed. We ran the RTA and the crossover notch showed that the wires had been reversed and he was a happy camper after fixing the error.

I know a sale rep who has a very nice system, complete with cables with black boxes on them, cable stands, special cables, expensive power cords that he said reduce amplifier warm up time from a few hours to 20 minutes. He borrowed a record cleaner that he described as "does such a great job that it's like a veil has been lifted". When I explain that most upgraded items are a waste of money and a scam, he just passes it off by saying "It's experiential". His last house had a whole side wall of glass and he was told that he needed to put up some insulation, so he went out and splurged for a couple of sheets of pink foam board behind the curtains. When I went there to listen to his new speakers, the imbalance in absorption drove me nuts, so I put a couple of pillows on the backrest of the sofa and it helped, but it still didn't sound right. He also put every pair of speakers I have seen in that house, in exactly the same spot.

Someone needs to build a black box that analyses sound and has a buzzer with red flashing light to let them know something is wrong because a lot of people in the audio industry can't hear many problems that exist.

WRT "Shipped nearly 200 pounds of speakers and gear yesterday. And today, lifted nearly half as much all over the place to make this review happen"- a total of 200 pounds? Big deal- he should try hauling my a$$ around- I'm a bit of a Clydesdale. 200 pounds total isn't that much. OTOH, with my knee injury, I haven't been lifting much and when I needed to move a rolling tool box in my basement, I also needed to remove the bench model drill press. It seems to have become heavier in the last 20 years- I don't understand what happened- I thought I was still "strong, like bull".
Reminds me of my buddy and his Bose 901s. He set one up in front of a full length curtain and called me up because that channel was way lower in volume all of a sudden. I told him it was the curtain. Even swapped the speaker wires around and swapped the speakers to prove that it was not the amp or speakers but he still didn't believe me. Some people don't want to be educated.

I turned 60 last year but still try and haul stuff around the house like I was 20 and then get a quick dose of reality. :D Was gifted a band saw recently but fortunately my son is still studying at home and was around to help. Starting to hike more, like 3dB, so at least my endurance is up compared to 2 years ago. Having a desk job has its drawbacks.
 
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