Turntable update needed.........perhaps, perhaps not

Revelation

Revelation

Junior Audioholic
You know I have been playing The Rolling Stones half speed master record on my Dual CS 5000 turntable with the Audioacoustic ZenII stabilizer and it sounds great. I recently changed my stylus with a new Grado gold one. I compared it to the CD and I definitely like it better than the CD.

So I'm thinking to myself, do I really need to upgrade my turntable and cartridge? How much of a difference am I going to hear? How much of a difference will I hear with a more expensive phono preamp compared to what is in my NAD preamp? Do I really need to spend more money when I am happy with what I have?

For curiosity sake, I'm thinking about getting something like the $500 Parasound phone preamp and then spend money on expensive RCA cables and do a A/B with what I already have. If the improvement is less than 5%, I could send it back. If the improvement is more than 5%, keep it and just stick with my turntable for now.

On the forums there is this push to always get new and improved, but sometimes we have to draw the line and just say, you know what, I'm really happy with what I have.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Comparing the LP to the CD is not quite comparing apples to apples. Some CDs will sound worse, others will sound better. The first pressing of Rush's Moving Pictures on CD was a bad transfer and I liked the LP better. The CD remaster of Yes' Close To The Edge sounds wonderful. All depends on who the engineer was, so it's not so much which media you choose but how it was produced.

Do you "need" to upgrade. Probably not if you are already enjoying things but we can't help but wonder if there is some improvement out there we have not tried. Please do not bother with expensive RCA cables though. If you have decent quality cables now that are not too long, changing cables will not make a difference. I would say that the most important piece of the TT puzzle is the cartridge and stylus. They can vary in frequency response and channel separation and how well they track. If you have a Grado cartridge then you likely have something quite good already. Whether you prefer something ruler flat or something with a bit of a sound signature is a personal matter.

Same would apply to phono pre-amps. Most are designed to apply the RIAA curve to the signal as closely as possible and your NAD likely does that quite well. I would not expect a very noticeable difference with another solid state pre-amp, although a tube pre-amp might colour the sound differently. You haven't listed all of your equipment model numbers, but NAD and Grado are generally quality components so I expect that you are looking for a marginally incremental improvement.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I think 5% would be extremely optimistic. If you do get "expensive" cables make sure they're proper for use with tts, one of the only times it really matters, but they don't need to be particularly expensive. Likely any that came with your tt are fine. Personally I can't see spending further on my vinyl at all, my tt/cartridge will likely be fine til after I'm gone at the rate I use them. I'd agree with Eppie, it's the quality of the recording, not the media, might depend on what particular era/type of recordings to an extent but generally I just don't find vinyl keeps up with digital in the majority of cases due more inherent distortion/surface noise alone.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
You know I have been playing The Rolling Stones half speed master record on my Dual CS 5000 turntable with the Audioacoustic ZenII stabilizer and it sounds great. I recently changed my stylus with a new Grado gold one. I compared it to the CD and I definitely like it better than the CD.

So I'm thinking to myself, do I really need to upgrade my turntable and cartridge? How much of a difference am I going to hear? How much of a difference will I hear with a more expensive phono preamp compared to what is in my NAD preamp? Do I really need to spend more money when I am happy with what I have?

For curiosity sake, I'm thinking about getting something like the $500 Parasound phone preamp and then spend money on expensive RCA cables and do a A/B with what I already have. If the improvement is less than 5%, I could send it back. If the improvement is more than 5%, keep it and just stick with my turntable for now.

On the forums there is this push to always get new and improved, but sometimes we have to draw the line and just say, you know what, I'm really happy with what I have.
Turntables are an art form. You have middle of the road turntable. I have never been keen on Grado cartridges.

A lot depends on how much you want to spend, and how carefully you set it up. A Phono preamp is a pretty simple device, and expensive ones are a rip off, and audiophoolery.

What you need is a good silent turntable that runs at the correct speed, without vibration and has good isolation. It is the arm/cartridge combination that really sets them apart. MC cartridges are a problem in many ways. They need a special preamp, they generally are heavier and less compliant. However the loony end sing their praises and so many esoteric arms are high mass, to get the resonance in the right place. So good vintage arms tend to be best for high compliance MM cartridges. Probably the best all round MM cartridge now is the Ortofon Black. Fortunately I have a number of Shure V15 xmr cartridges.

As far as arms are concerned, my favorite is the SME series III arm, as they are highly adjustable and properly damped. The damping is also adjustable.

Exotic cables are a myth. You just need good quality ones. However there is a caveat. The loading capacity of cartridges is not standard, nor cable capacitance nor the capacitance of phono or any RIAA inputs.

So getting this all right is critical, seldom done right and one of the biggest reasons for variable results. So you need to know the optimal loading capacitance of your cartridge. Then select low capacitance cables, and know, or measure, the capacitance of the cables. You must know the loading capacitance of the input. Now you add the lead capacitance to the loading capacitance. Now you subtract that number from the cartridge loading capacitance and then you get a capacitor that equals the value of that subtraction. Then you solder that capacitor in parallel with the input. Usually this is a small component and can be soldered inside an RCA plug.

Unfortunately turntables require obsessional set up, and few perform optimally, because of lack of proper attention to detail. This was all understood in the heyday of the LP era. Now it has been overtaken by unscientific audiophoolery in a big way.

SME series III with Shure V15 xmr.



This rig is 60 years old and still sound superb. Decca pro arm with Decca 4HE, Garrard 301 turntable playing through a 1965 Quad 22 tube preamp.



So, yes you could make an improvement in your turntable sound, assuming the rest of your rig is of commensurate quality. LP systems are NOT plug and play. Good results requires choice of appropriately matching equipment, and obsessional set up and installation. Only you can decide if it is worth the effort.

I have been playing pretty much all media that goes back from now to about 70 years, and have a lot of media, so for me it is worth it. It all makes for good stories and talking points as well. To maintain it is better than modern digital technology though, is nonsense, but it gives it a really good run for its money!
 
Revelation

Revelation

Junior Audioholic
Thank you for your insight which was very helpful. For background info on my setup, i have a McIntosh MC152 and Focal Aria 926 speakers. Regarding turntables I was told though you can get good MM cartridges, MC were considered better in a general sense. I was told if you buy a MM cartridge you don't have to do much setup and just use my phono preamp in my NAD 658 preamp. On external phono preamps there is just one setting for MM which I think is a 40db boost. With MC cartridges, you need to find the specs and then adjust your external phono preamp to MC and dial in the correct setting. I was not aware more adjustments were needed. The VPI Scout 21 with a Ortofon Black cartridge or Sumiko Amerthest MM cartridge where some considerations if I upgraded my setup. It's a lot of money for I'm not sure of how much difference I would notice.
 
Last edited:
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
You know I have been playing The Rolling Stones half speed master record on my Dual CS 5000 turntable with the Audioacoustic ZenII stabilizer and it sounds great. I recently changed my stylus with a new Grado gold one. I compared it to the CD and I definitely like it better than the CD.

So I'm thinking to myself, do I really need to upgrade my turntable and cartridge? How much of a difference am I going to hear? How much of a difference will I hear with a more expensive phono preamp compared to what is in my NAD preamp? Do I really need to spend more money when I am happy with what I have?

For curiosity sake, I'm thinking about getting something like the $500 Parasound phone preamp and then spend money on expensive RCA cables and do a A/B with what I already have. If the improvement is less than 5%, I could send it back. If the improvement is more than 5%, keep it and just stick with my turntable for now.

On the forums there is this push to always get new and improved, but sometimes we have to draw the line and just say, you know what, I'm really happy with what I have.
You just upgraded your cartridge and you're asking if you should upgrade your turntable & cartridge. Think about that.

We can't know anything about the differences you might hear- we don't have your ears and don't know your ability to hear the differences or how you listen- critical listening is learned.

Good luck trying to determine a 5% difference-- it's not an objective test and you can't do an AB test by A) changing the cables yourself or B) take so long to change the cables- it needs to be faster that you can change them and someone else needs to change the path (or not) in order for the test to be valid. Just knowing or believing that the change has been made biases your judgement.
 
SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic General
Thank you for your insight which was very helpful. For background info on my setup, i have a McIntosh MC152 and Focal Aria 926 speakers. Regarding turntables I was told though you can get good MM cartridges, MC were considered better in a general sense. I was told if you buy a MM cartridge you don't have to do much setup and just use my phono preamp in my NAD 658 preamp. On external phono preamps there is just one setting for MM which I think is a 40db boost. With MC cartridges, you need to find the specs and then adjust your external phono preamp to MC and dial in the correct setting. I was not aware more adjustments were needed. The VPI Scout 21 with a Ortofon Black cartridge or Sumiko Amerthest MM cartridge where some considerations if I upgraded my setup. It's a lot of money for I'm not sure of how much difference I would notice.
Do you have the "Exile on Main Street" Master? I listen my 50 year old vinyl sometimes and I feel like I am in the basement with them.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Curious who is particularly telling you these things?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thank you for your insight which was very helpful. For background info on my setup, i have a McIntosh MC152 and Focal Aria 926 speakers. Regarding turntables I was told though you can get good MM cartridges, MC were considered better in a general sense. I was told if you buy a MM cartridge you don't have to do much setup and just use my phono preamp in my NAD 658 preamp. On external phono preamps there is just one setting for MM which I think is a 40db boost. With MC cartridges, you need to find the specs and then adjust your external phono preamp to MC and dial in the correct setting. I was not aware more adjustments were needed. The VPI Scout 21 with a Ortofon Black cartridge or Sumiko Amerthest MM cartridge where some considerations if I upgraded my setup. It's a lot of money for I'm not sure of how much difference I would notice.
I'm biased, but I would recommend looking at the Denon 103R cartridge, too- I have a 103d and it's very nice. The 103 series is the longest continuously-produced cartridge line ever, for good reasons. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be a good match for your tonearm. It would, however, work with the Parasound preamp and I discussed this with their tech support department because I'm considering one of their models, too. However, I'm a Parasound dealer and want to be able to demo for people but the gain from their older models (pre-P6 preamp development) wasn't really enough for the 103 since its output is extremely low.

There's a lot more to setting up a turntable and cartridge than just installing the cartridge- the tonearm mass and cartridge compliance need to work well together or it won't track uneven surfaces and it will be prone to resonances that aren't always easy to deal with. The cartridge output differences are easier to handle because they're electrical and adjustments can be made but when a bad tonearm/cartridge match is the problem, there's no simple fix, other than choosing a different cartridge.
 
Revelation

Revelation

Junior Audioholic
I did not upgrade my cartridge, I replaced the needle (stylus) which was 30 years old
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You ran the same stylus for 30 years!? Used relatively infrequently I hope....
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
SME has been making some of the best tone arms for decades, but Lord, a used SME V is $4k or more. If that stylus was 30 years old, then a cartridge upgrade might be a good consideration. Which model Grado do you have? Agree with TLS Guy that the Ortofon Black is a great cartridge and Sumiko is pretty well regarded too. Doc knows his stuff but I'll be damned if I can find the loading capacitance for my old Audio Technica AT152LP. Those numbers should be available for modern Ortofons though. If you need to add a little capacitance, my understanding is that longer cables have higher capacitance so lengthening the cable can have the same effect as soldering in a capacitor in parallel (if the length remains within reason).
 
Revelation

Revelation

Junior Audioholic
I'm biased, but I would recommend looking at the Denon 103R cartridge, too- I have a 103d and it's very nice. The 103 series is the longest continuously-produced cartridge line ever, for good reasons. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be a good match for your tonearm. It would, however, work with the Parasound preamp and I discussed this with their tech support department because I'm considering one of their models, too. However, I'm a Parasound dealer and want to be able to demo for people but the gain from their older models (pre-P6 preamp development) wasn't really enough for the 103 since its output is extremely low.

There's a lot more to setting up a turntable and cartridge than just installing the cartridge- the tonearm mass and cartridge compliance need to work well together or it won't track uneven surfaces and it will be prone to resonances that aren't always easy to deal with. The cartridge output differences are easier to handle because they're electrical and adjustments can be made but when a bad tonearm/cartridge match is the problem, there's no simple fix, other than choosing a different cartridge.
But if I purchase a VPI Scout 21, it comes with tonearm designed for it and a place like Music Direct will setup the cartridge if I buy it together. I get what your saying though and I don't disagree with you
 
Revelation

Revelation

Junior Audioholic
You ran the same stylus for 30 years!? Used relatively infrequently I hope....
I rarely used my turntable in the last 13 years due to moving and not setting up my higher end stereo for years. Just used a Yamaha receiver for watching movies with a different system. I took a break from audiophile for a while.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
You ran the same stylus for 30 years!? Used relatively infrequently I hope....
I did, but it wasn't used for a long time and I have a microscope, so I could see that the tip wasn't worn before I started using it again.On clean LPs, the diamond won't wear out quickly.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I rarely used my turntable in the last 13 years due to moving and not setting up my higher end stereo for years. Just used a Yamaha receiver for watching movies with a different system. I took a break from audiophile for a while.
Still, 17 years is a long time if that was regular use....when I was using vinyl regularly (before making an audiophile move to the superior digital stuff generally), regular use for me for many years (until the arrival of cd) was several hours a day. YMMV. Audiophile doesn't necessarily translate to a return to vinyl, sounds backwards to me personally.

I did, but it wasn't used for a long time and I have a microscope, so I could see that the tip wasn't worn before I started using it again.On clean LPs, the diamond won't wear out quickly.
Never used one that infrequently until now (where I may play something maybe once a month for a nostalgia session). Manufacturers often recommend 1000-1500 hours of use before replacement....
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Never used one that infrequently until now (where I may play something maybe once a month for a nostalgia session). Manufacturers often recommend 1000-1500 hours of use before replacement....
And that would be similar to close to 2000 LPs, if they average 45 minutes. That's pretty good, considering the fact that the vinyl contains Carbon Black, which is the same stuff that makes car tires black and is very abrasive.

I duplicated a good % of my vinyl on CD and because this was at/near the beginning of CDs, the sound wasn't particularly great, but they were convenient and consistent. I always thought the low end was lacking some fullness that I missed and when I listen to high quality pressings on LP, it's there. Obviously, this could very well be a bias due to familiarity, but as I have posted many times, my listening is less "I care if this equipment sounds good" and "does this sound good, regardless of the format?". The bass from my setup isn't bloated, boomy or muddy and I don't use a sub, partly because it would be difficult and extremely expensive to achieve the low end that I really like.

I will say that the sound of some of the remastered music I have heard is outstanding- the original mixes in some cases were absolutely horrible, so an AB comparison would never end in the LP being preferred.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I agree with the comment that you are comparing apples and oranges. We all know that digital provides for more dynamic range, lower noise and higher accuracy than vinyl. So they will only sound the same if someone masters the recordings to sound the same. Regardless of the playback system, two mastering jobs will sound different. Regardless of the recording system, every recording gets mastered or adjusted by a sound engineer. Apples and oranges. If you want a different viny playback system then buy one. There is no way people on the internet who have never heard your system can suggest anything meaningful.
 
Revelation

Revelation

Junior Audioholic
I agree records and Cds won't sound the same. But alot of records I enjoyed listening to more than the version I have on CD like the Rolling Stones Exile from the masters on heavier vinyl. Other records like Fleetwood Mac Rumors the CD or live Straming sounds better than the record.
 
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