Front Speaker Choices

[WinkyD]

Hi,

First post in the forum, so I hope I'm not breaking any rules.

I am looking to replace the main speakers in my 2.1 system. The room is about 13 x 26. The home was built in 1910 and the lath & plaster is still in place. The front wall has an open doorway just off-center to the left leading to another room. There is a wood floor covered (mostly) by a thick wool rug from the 1930s and there is a basement. The rug is 9' x 12' so there is about 18" of the floor on either side of it. Placing speakers on the rug also places the left speaker in front of the doorway. This forces me to place speakers to the outside of the rug near the outer walls. I am able to place them out from the front wall about 3'. The listening position is about 11' from the center between the speakers. Thus, the distance between the speakers is wider than the distance to the listening position. Clearly, the speakers must be toed-in.

I have been using stand-mounted speakers and sliding the base of the stands under the rug to move the speakers further away from the side walls. While that is still an option, I am looking seriously at moving to floor-standing speakers. The lower the front speakers reach with authority the lower I can cross over to the sub. This should also help distribute the standing waves in the room somewhat. I listen mostly to music, but I also listen to movies too. I'm not shy with the volume, but I don't play my system for the neighbors across the street either. I prefer low coloration and smooth and accurate frequency response. So, I've been looking at these as potential choices (in no particular order):

• Paradigm Premier 800F
• Focal Chora 816
• Polk Reserve R700

The 800F is near the top of my budget, but I might be willing to squeeze a bit more for something truly exceptional. It might be a reasonable choice based on what I'm reading. The 816 seems to have a prominent midrange and just O.K. bass response. I don't know if pushing up to the 826 would bring any substantial improvements. The R700 appears to have the smoothest response, but the tweeter's dispersion collapses substantially at higher frequencies. I have also read comments that the R700 bass response lack some definition, though it has good extension.

I am open to comments, opinions, and suggestions to break my analysis paralysis. I am open to either floor or stand-mounted speakers for around $2k. Yes, I know I'm unicorn hunting.

 

[j_garcia]

To be honest, if you have a good sub, most Auto-EQ systems will usually cross your speakers higher, not lower. This tends to be the case to get the cleanest blend between main and sub.

LOL. Unicorn hunting at that budget, the BMR is right there like a giant happy unicorn. Large, stand mounted bookshelf, and as good as you will likely find at that price point: https://www.philharmonicaudio.com/ Tower version will cost you a lot more though. I have the predecessor, the regular Philharmonior and I love them. I have heard the BMRs from the guy I bought mine from and they sounded great.

 

[WinkyD]

To be honest, if you have a good sub, most Auto-EQ systems will usually cross your speakers higher, not lower. This tends to be the case to get the cleanest blend between main and sub.

I'm using a Parasound Hint, not an A/V receiver. While it does have separate HP and LP x-over capabilities there is no auto anything. By allowing the main speakers to produce deeper bass I gain some of the advantages of dual subs regarding room modes. With larger drivers, even moving the x-over from 80Hz to 60Hz is helpful.

LOL. Unicorn hunting at that budget, the BMR is right there like a giant happy unicorn. Large, stand mounted bookshelf, and as good as you will likely find at that price point: https://www.philharmonicaudio.com/ Tower version will cost you a lot more though. I have the predecessor, the regular Philharmonior and I love them. I have heard the BMRs from the guy I bought mine from and they sounded great.

At that budget? Not sure what you mean by that. Some folks may consider $2k pocket change, while others may consider it well out of reach. For me, I've had to save for this purchase and want to make the best purchase I am able. I don't understand what you meant.

Thanks for the suggestion. The BMR does look like a fine product worth considering.

 

[Pogre]

I'm using a Parasound Hint, not an A/V receiver. While it does have separate HP and LP x-over capabilities there is no auto anything. By allowing the main speakers to produce deeper bass I gain some of the advantages of dual subs regarding room modes. With larger drivers, even moving the x-over from 80Hz to 60Hz is helpful

His point is that a higher crossover can sometimes make for a more seemless blend. It doesn't matter what you're using. As far as that goes tho, your room will let you know if 60 or 80 would work best. In any case the more your subs are producing the more you take advantage of having duals.

At that budget? Not sure what you mean by that. Some folks may consider $2k pocket change, while others may consider it well out of reach. For me, I've had to save for this purchase and want to make the best purchase I am able. I don't understand what you meant.

Thanks for the suggestion. The BMR does look like a fine product worth considering.

He means that the Philharmonic BMR is a very, very good choice with your stated budget, lol. And it is! They're one of the most accurate and transparent speakers you can buy at any price point. The only thing I'd question would be volume capability if you like it loud in a large-ish room.

 

[WinkyD]

His point is that a higher crossover can sometimes make for a more seemless blend. It doesn't matter what you're using. As far as that goes tho, your room will let you know if 60 or 80 would work best. In any case the more your subs are producing the more you take advantage of having duals.

In saying "gain some of the advantages of dual subs" I neglected to say I have a single sub. I should have been more clear on that. Nevertheless, you are correct that the room, as well as the speakers/sub will decide the x-over frequency.

He means that the Philharmonic BMR is a very, very good choice with your stated budget, lol. And it is! They're one of the most accurate and transparent speakers you can buy at any price point. The only thing I'd question would be volume capability if you like it loud in a large-ish room.

Fair enough. Text is often a poor form of communication as much gets lost in translation.

I just read the review here of the BMR done by James Larson, and I agree it appears to be a fine speaker. I too might be concerned about its output capabilities if I expected to run it full range at high volume. Vocal intelligibility is often problematic with content intended for 5.1 (for example) down-mixed to stereo. Dialog is often considerably softer and turning the gain up causes high dynamic passages to be overwhelming and potentially damaging. This may indeed be a caveat to the BMR, but I won't know for sure until I have them in place. So, they are officially added to my list making an even 4 potential candidates.

 

[Swerd]

@WinkyD

I second those recommendations by j_garcia and Pogre for the BMR PhiharMonitor speakers.

Below are links to two excellent reviews of them, by @shadyJ and @ErinH. I've heard them in my home, and I agree with what they say. My listening room is just a bit larger in size than yours.

Their abilities at voice reproduction are unmatched. Many readers who haven't heard them wonder about their volume output. After hearing them, I'm not at all concerned about that, and I suggest that you don't worry either.

The cabinets are made in small production lots in China, shipped to Taiwan where they are partially assembled with crossovers, wiring, and some drivers, and then shipped to the Maryland/Virginia area where final assembly is done. If you're interested, contact Dennis Murphy by email at info@philharmonicaudio.com. I believe (but I'm not certain) he's now taking orders for a shipment expected in April.

BMR PhilharMonitors
https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/bmr-philharmonitor-1
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/philharmonic-bmr-review.118775/

If you're OK with the higher price, I'd also recommend these.
BMR Towers

Philharmonic BMR Tower Review

We were pretty stunned at what Philharmonic Audio delivered for the cost in our review of the BMR Philharmonitors a couple of years ago: a phenomenal bookshelf speaker with true full-range extension and near-perfect response on and off-axis. Needless to say, the BMR Philharmonitor has its fans...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[j_garcia]

His point is that a higher crossover can sometimes make for a more seemless blend. It doesn't matter what you're using. As far as that goes tho, your room will let you know if 60 or 80 would work best.

That is what I meant. Regardless of what you're using, I noticed over a few different EQ systems that they all crossed my speakers higher than their lower extension and what I would have intuitively set them at. Crossing them lower seems obvious to us, but the software tells a different story to achieve a smooth transition. That obviously will vary depending on the speakers in question and the room. Given that, a speaker that gives you the ability to use a lower crossover is preferred in my book because you have more flexibility and there's no question you can hit that smoother transition.

I know, we come off as Philharmonic fan-boys lol, but the reason for that is simple: Dennis's speakers are damn good. He can translate what he hears into the design of speakers that are so well rounded. When you listen to music, you are hearing the artist's opinions and thoughts. On a similar level, you are hearing Dennis's thoughts on how that music should sound. My ears agree.

 

[Pogre]

In saying "gain some of the advantages of dual subs" I neglected to say I have a single sub. I should have been more clear on that. Nevertheless, you are correct that the room, as well as the speakers/sub will decide the x-over frequency.



Fair enough. Text is often a poor form of communication as much gets lost in translation.

I just read the review here of the BMR done by James Larson, and I agree it appears to be a fine speaker. I too might be concerned about its output capabilities if I expected to run it full range at high volume. Vocal intelligibility is often problematic with content intended for 5.1 (for example) down-mixed to stereo. Dialog is often considerably softer and turning the gain up causes high dynamic passages to be overwhelming and potentially damaging. This may indeed be a caveat to the BMR, but I won't know for sure until I have them in place. So, they are officially added to my list making an even 4 potential candidates.

The BMR is on a lot of short lists and really is an outstanding speaker, and can play quite loud (and dig very deep, well into the 30 hz range) but it's not an spl monster. 11' is a pretty good distance and if you really like to crank it up could potentially be an issue.

Have you ever checked your listening levels with a spl meter? Even the phone app ones are good enough to get you ballpark close. We can come pretty close to figuring out if it's enough speaker for you.

 

[WinkyD]

@WinkyD

I second those recommendations by j_garcia and Pogre for the BMR PhiharMonitor speakers.

Below are links to two excellent reviews of them, by @shadyJ and @ErinH. I've heard them in my home, and I agree with what they say. My listening room is just a bit larger in size than yours.

Their abilities at voice reproduction are unmatched. Many readers who haven't heard them wonder about their volume output. After hearing them, I'm not at all concerned about that, and I suggest that you don't worry either.

The cabinets are made in small production lots in China, shipped to Taiwan where they are partially assembled with crossovers, wiring, and some drivers, and then shipped to the Maryland/Virginia area where final assembly is done. If you're interested, contact Dennis Murphy by email at info@philharmonicaudio.com. I believe (but I'm not certain) he's now taking orders for a shipment expected in April.

BMR PhilharMonitors
https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/bmr-philharmonitor-1
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/philharmonic-bmr-review.118775/

If you're OK with the higher price, I'd also recommend these.
BMR Towers

Philharmonic BMR Tower Review

We were pretty stunned at what Philharmonic Audio delivered for the cost in our review of the BMR Philharmonitors a couple of years ago: a phenomenal bookshelf speaker with true full-range extension and near-perfect response on and off-axis. Needless to say, the BMR Philharmonitor has its fans...

forums.audioholics.com

I have read both reviews and can see why it is highly regarded. As for the tower, lots to like about that speaker, except it's priced beyond my means.

 

[WinkyD]

That is what I meant. Regardless of what you're using, I noticed over a few different EQ systems that they all crossed my speakers higher than their lower extension and what I would have intuitively set them at. Crossing them lower seems obvious to us, but the software tells a different story to achieve a smooth transition. That obviously will vary depending on the speakers in question and the room. Given that, a speaker that gives you the ability to use a lower crossover is preferred in my book because you have more flexibility and there's no question you can hit that smoother transition.

I think we're in agreement, just saying it differently. I have no EQ for either the main speakers or the sub. I'll likely use REW to get things as good as I can in regard to x-over point and blend, but there's no EQ to help manage anything.

I know, we come off as Philharmonic fan-boys lol, but the reason for that is simple: Dennis's speakers are damn good. He can translate what he hears into the design of speakers that are so well rounded. When you listen to music, you are hearing the artist's opinions and thoughts. On a similar level, you are hearing Dennis's thoughts on how that music should sound. My ears agree.

This didn't show up in the post, but it did in the quote. Clearly, you like the speaker and I appreciate the suggestion.

 

[WinkyD]

The BMR is on a lot of short lists and really is an outstanding speaker, and can play quite loud (and dig very deep, well into the 30 hz range) but it's not an spl monster. 11' is a pretty good distance and if you really like to crank it up could potentially be an issue.

Have you ever checked your listening levels with a spl meter? Even the phone app ones are good enough to get you ballpark close. We can come pretty close to figuring out if it's enough speaker for you.

It's been a while since I've checked, but I tend to average about 90db for most music, though I do go higher sometimes. Movies would likely be my main concern as we do listen to them at higher volumes quite often, pushing 100db plus peaks.

 

[Pogre]

It's been a while since I've checked, but I tend to average about 90db for most music, though I do go higher sometimes. Movies would likely be my main concern as we do listen to them at higher volumes quite often, pushing 100db plus peaks.

As to me questioning output goes...

Many readers who haven't heard them wonder about their volume output. After hearing them, I'm not at all concerned about that, and I suggest that you don't worry either

I'm unfortunately one of those who hasn't heard a BMR. Swerd would know heads and shoulders more than I do about their capabilities so I'd put a lot more weight in his opinion.

I do however own speakers that feature RAAL Ribbon tweeters and can confirm they're the best sounding, most detailed tweeters I've ever heard. Tweeters aren't everything in a speaker, but the RAAL ribbons really are pretty special.

 

[WinkyD]

As to me questioning output goes...

I'm unfortunately one of those who hasn't heard a BMR. Swerd would know heads and shoulders more than I do about their capabilities so I'd put a lot more weight in his opinion.

I do however own speakers that feature RAAL Ribbon tweeters and can confirm they're the best sounding, most detailed tweeters I've ever heard. Tweeters aren't everything in a speaker, but the RAAL ribbons really are pretty special.

I have owned relatively low-efficiency speakers in the 85db range that have performed well for me in this same setup, so I know it's possible the BMRs may be just fine for my application. That said, having additional output capability isn't a bad thing either. Again, I wouldn't know unless I heard them here.

Given the uh, enthusiastic support for the BMR and not a single comment about my other choices, should I conclude them to be unworthy?

 

[Pogre]

Okay, let's see using this online calculator.

Peak SPL Calculator

A couple of caveats, that calculator assumes an 8 Ohm load so it's not going to be super accurate but should get us in the ballpark.

At 11 feet you can hit almost 100 dB with 100 watts using two 87 dB sensitivity 8 Ohm speakers. The BMR is a 4 Ohm speaker tho, so I *think* you'd subtract 3 dB from sensitivity to get it closer so... you're looking at 96 dB with 100 watts at 11'? If I'm wrong about that someone please correct me.

Thats really, really quite loud continuously. They should be able to handle even higher peaks pretty well and be within the BMR's operating range.

 

[Pogre]

I have owned relatively low-efficiency speakers in the 85db range that have performed well for me in this same setup, so I know it's possible the BMRs may be just fine for my application. That said, having additional output capability isn't a bad thing either. Again, I wouldn't know unless I heard them here.

Given the uh, enthusiastic support for the BMR and not a single comment about my other choices, should I conclude them to be unworthy?

I keep getting crossed up with your posts, posting at the same time, lol. I posted some more info and a calculator above.

Yes, I think it's a very worthy speaker and should be able to handle your spl needs.

 

[WinkyD]

Yes, I think it's a very worthy speaker and should be able to handle your spl needs.

It probably can. I was hoping to get some informed feedback on the other options as well. I've read up on each one of them and was looking for thoughts from some who have actually heard them, if not own them.

 

[j_garcia]

Focals also very good. Neutral and good overall sound. Paradigm I tend to only like their flagship models, having owned a number of speakers from them in the past. They used to reserve the best drivers for their top models, and the gap was pretty big, though I have not heard the current lineups. Have not heard the Polks either, but not normally something that would be on my list. Not to say I don't like Polks, the LSiM line was pretty good.

 

[Pogre]

It probably can. I was hoping to get some informed feedback on the other options as well. I've read up on each one of them and was looking for thoughts from some who have actually heard them, if not own them.

There are some really good choices out there with your budget. It definitely pays to do your homework. I have a pair of Sierra 2s from Ascend Acoustics, also with RAAL ribbon tweeters and they're wonderful speakers too.

SIERRA-2EX PAIR

Our New Benchmark Bookshelf Ribbon Speaker Important Note: Sierra-2EX has been replaced by our new Sierra-2EX V2 Featuring our new proprietary 6" SEAS EXCEL Curv™ Woofer. With the development of this shockingly high-performance new woofer, we have improved upon every aspect of our award winning...

www.ascendacoustics.com

I stumbled across those for $650 on Craigslist and just had to pull the trigger on them! If I had a choice I'd rather have the upgraded 2EX but for the price I paid for those I can't complain. Long story short I like them so much I sold the speakers I had and bought the matching Sierra towers and center channel from Ascend.

Speaking of the upgraded Sierra 2EX... comes with an upgraded mid/bass driver and crossovers, well within your budget and also very worthy of consideration.

SIERRA-2EX PAIR

Our New Benchmark Bookshelf Ribbon Speaker Important Note: Sierra-2EX has been replaced by our new Sierra-2EX V2 Featuring our new proprietary 6" SEAS EXCEL Curv™ Woofer. With the development of this shockingly high-performance new woofer, we have improved upon every aspect of our award winning...

www.ascendacoustics.com

I'm very familiar with the above and absolutely love them, in no small part because of that wonderful tweeter. They're well built and very neutral, accurate, revealing speakers and very close to being on par with the BMR. The nod for bass extension would have go to the BMR, and it's a 3 way speaker with a very interesting midrange, but the Sierra 2EX is right there with it.

One thing that makes the Sierras unique are the bamboo cabinets. Bamboo is stiffer and lighter than mdf and the cabinets are very, very inert. When I do the knuckle tap test it sounds like I'm tapping a solid block of wood.

 

[j_garcia]

Seemed focused a bit more on towers, so i didn't mention the Sierra 2. BMR is a mini tower lol.

 

[Pogre]

Seemed focused a bit more on towers, so i didn't mention the Sierra 2. BMR is a mini tower lol.

Oh, I was thinking books were under consideration too.

Oh well. At least I got to brag about my awesome Craigslist find...