Subwoofer Advice - looking for a pair on a low budget

[Fried Chicken]

This is the balance point… you can throw good money at imperfect solutions or you can flip the script and look at it as a long term investment in quality bass.
Build one to start and get the amplifier as soon as you can. Build the second sub when you can.
You will come out much further ahead.
It is your ducats; this is not lost on me.
It is simply a long-game plan on how to get what you want rather than spend on sub-standard solutions. Your approach will keep you spending because what you want is simply not available at the budget you set, thus you will spend more down the line trying to solve for this again.

I get the logic and you're right. Do it once, do it right.

I might just sell what I currently have and go with the Dayton Sub-1200s. Then I will still end up with that itch of imperfection, that need to go bigger and MOAR.

Probably the better option is to stick with what I have, keep the bigger picture in mind, and slowly acquire parts (Amps, Drivers, .. that's basically it). What exactly is a Sonotube anyway? Some sort of thing used in construction? I thought it was a subwoofer thing, given the name. Apparently not.

I could buy a broken Amp and fix it potentially.

 

[ryanosaur]

I get the logic and you're right. Do it once, do it right.

I might just sell what I currently have and go with the Dayton Sub-1200s. Then I will still end up with that itch of imperfection, that need to go bigger and MOAR.

Probably the better option is to stick with what I have, keep the bigger picture in mind, and slowly acquire parts (Amps, Drivers, .. that's basically it). What exactly is a Sonotube anyway? Some sort of thing used in construction? I thought it was a subwoofer thing, given the name. Apparently not.

I could buy a broken Amp and fix it potentially.

Sonotubes are forms for pouring concrete. Specifically, that name is a brand, but you are not limited to just them.

sonotube - Google Search

 

[Pogre]

I get the logic and you're right. Do it once, do it right.

I might just sell what I currently have and go with the Dayton Sub-1200s. Then I will still end up with that itch of imperfection, that need to go bigger and MOAR.

Probably the better option is to stick with what I have, keep the bigger picture in mind, and slowly acquire parts (Amps, Drivers, .. that's basically it). What exactly is a Sonotube anyway? Some sort of thing used in construction? I thought it was a subwoofer thing, given the name. Apparently not.

I could buy a broken Amp and fix it potentially.

Sonotube is the name given to it by the diy community. What they are, are large cylinder tubes used to form concrete pillars or columns. You pour the concrete inside one, let it dry then cut the tube off. The material they're made of combined with the shape just so happens to also work very well for cylindrical subwoofers. The shape is naturally very stiff and works well for bass.

 

[highfigh]

Sonotube is the name given to it by the diy community. What they are, are large cylinder tubes used to form concrete pillars or columns. You pour the concrete inside one, let it dry then cut the tube off. The material they're made of combined with the shape just so happens to also work very well for cylindrical subwoofers. The shape is naturally very stiff and works well for bass.

PVC pipe can be used, too.

 

[ryanosaur]

PVC pipe can be used, too.

But much more expensive per foot than the concrete forms. a quick simple search showed me 18" dia PVC at ~$31 per foot vs ~$11 per foot of sonotube. *shrugs

 

[highfigh]

But much more expensive per foot than the concrete forms. a quick simple search showed me 18" dia PVC at ~$31 per foot vs ~$11 per foot of sonotube. *shrugs

OK, so use fiberglass- easy to work, not terribly expensive unless epoxy is used and it's very strong. Even with Sonotube, the ends need to be made very strong, so they don't come apart.

Tell you what- if I can contact the owner, maybe I can get them to let someone use their big lathe- it's 110' long and was used for turning sailing ship masts. Get some logs, turn the tubes and crank them out like popcorn....

 

[ryanosaur]

OK, so use fiberglass- easy to work, not terribly expensive unless epoxy is used and it's very strong. Even with Sonotube, the ends need to be made very strong, so they don't come apart.

Tell you what- if I can contact the owner, maybe I can get them to let someone use their big lathe- it's 110' long and was used for turning sailing ship masts. Get some logs, turn the tubes and crank them out like popcorn....

LMAO

 

[Fried Chicken]

The used market has already popped up a Behringer iNuke NU1000 amp for $175.

Looking at class-D amplifiers, what should I look out for? I see a lot of them offering DSP. It seems distortion isn't so important when it comes to subwoofers. What about power? 500W into 4 Ohms is good enough? Now drivers? Now drivers. When I look at subwoofers, they all look the same to me, unless they're going into a car. Those look flimsy.

 

[highfigh]

Just sayin'. Even two of these makes the low end majestic.

 

[highfigh]

The used market has already popped up a Behringer iNuke NU1000 amp for $175.

Looking at class-D amplifiers, what should I look out for? I see a lot of them offering DSP. It seems distortion isn't so important when it comes to subwoofers. What about power? 500W into 4 Ohms is good enough? Now drivers? Now drivers. When I look at subwoofers, they all look the same to me, unless they're going into a car. Those look flimsy.

How loud does it need to be? THAT will determine everything.

 

[Fried Chicken]

How loud does it need to be? THAT will determine everything.

What's the THX specification? I think my room is like 20 x 36 feet? Low ceilings, 8ft. Someone else suggested I really don't need 15's and 12's would do for my room size.

 

[ryanosaur]

The used market has already popped up a Behringer iNuke NU1000 amp for $175.

Looking at class-D amplifiers, what should I look out for? I see a lot of them offering DSP. It seems distortion isn't so important when it comes to subwoofers. What about power? 500W into 4 Ohms is good enough? Now drivers? Now drivers. When I look at subwoofers, they all look the same to me, unless they're going into a car. Those look flimsy.

Now you are getting into a whole other problem...
The Behringer amps are used very often because they are inexpensive. However, with that is the knowledge that they also only offer about 50% of their claimed output.

DSP can be important because it will allow you to program some control over your project. An HPF (high pass filter) can be necessary to protect from overexcursion down low. Voltage limiting can also be used to protect from over driving the Speaker. Shelf filters and other such tinkering can be applied to shape the output of your Sub by helping to flatten peaks and whatnot.
All of this is based on being able to take measurements and understanding how to apply that to the DSP filters as necessary to fine tune the Sub you build.

Distortion in a subwoofer is actually very deleterious. Most people that complain about Bass being too loud are actually complaining about distortion characteristics. Good, clean, linear bass is subtle, until it is shaking the foundation of your home apart. It is the distortions that make it feel loud.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Now you are getting into a whole other problem...
The Behringer amps are used very often because they are inexpensive. However, with that is the knowledge that they also only offer about 50% of their claimed output.

DSP can be important because it will allow you to program some control over your project. An HPF (high pass filter) can be necessary to protect from overexcursion down low. Voltage limiting can also be used to protect from over driving the Speaker. Shelf filters and other such tinkering can be applied to shape the output of your Sub by helping to flatten peaks and whatnot.
All of this is based on being able to take measurements and understanding how to apply that to the DSP filters as necessary to fine tune the Sub you build.

Distortion in a subwoofer is actually very deleterious. Most people that complain about Bass being too loud are actually complaining about distortion characteristics. Good, clean, linear bass is subtle, until it is shaking the foundation of your home apart. It is the distortions that make it feel loud.

Well there's no way I'm doing Class A or Class AB amplification at 500 or 1000 watts.

I'm not sure how I would measure DSP, unless yamaha's YPAO lets me do that elegantly, which I doubt. I have a scope I could hook a mic to. Otherwise I also have an iPhone App that's pretty good lol. Is the goal here a flat response on the subwoofer?

 

[ryanosaur]

What's the THX specification? I think my room is like 20 x 36 feet? Low ceilings, 8ft. Someone else suggested I really don't need 15's and 12's would do for my room size.

The general rule of thumb is that your Subwoofer should be able to hit dynamic peaks at 115dB. 10dB higher than your Speakers.
As before, this gets complicated.

12s vs 15s... It is commonly said that there is no replacement for displacement. You want ULF reproduction which requires a larger piston to move more air. At the most basic, this is simple physics.
Can a well designed 12" Sub do the job? Yes. Look at those Hsu VTF 2 Subs I mentioned above. With some work you could find the right driver and build a good sub using 12" drivers, certainly.
15s will be a little more efficacious.

 

[highfigh]

What's the THX specification? I think my room is like 20 x 36 feet? Low ceilings, 8ft. Someone else suggested I really don't need 15's and 12's would do for my room size.

THX certification doesn't matter if it's too loud, not loud enough, doesn't sound good to you, etc.

I should have posted "loudness and room size/dimensions", not just loudness. The low ceilings don't help. A description of the room would help- floor covering, shape, wall irregularities, number of windows, seating positions, etc all play into the requirements.

 

[ryanosaur]

Well there's no way I'm doing Class A or Class AB amplification at 500 or 1000 watts.

I'm not sure how I would measure DSP, unless yamaha's YPAO lets me do that elegantly, which I doubt. I have a scope I could hook a mic to. Otherwise I also have an iPhone App that's pretty good lol. Is the goal here a flat response on the subwoofer?

I'm not suggesting other amplification. Class D is what I prefer. I just know Behringer has some limits. This is why I suggest the 3000 models... they should hit about 600-700w per channel.
Room EQ Wizard is what many people use to take measurements. All you need is a UMIK-1 or similar calibrated measurement mic. REW will run on mac or PC. It is freeware. You can learn more about it by visiting their site.

 

[highfigh]

Well there's no way I'm doing Class A or Class AB amplification at 500 or 1000 watts.

I'm not sure how I would measure DSP, unless yamaha's YPAO lets me do that elegantly, which I doubt. I have a scope I could hook a mic to. Otherwise I also have an iPhone App that's pretty good lol. Is the goal here a flat response on the subwoofer?

You can download Room EQ Wizard (usually called REW) and learn to use it- it lets you see the response, rather than trying to perceive it by ear. Once the response has been dealt with, it can be tweaked to satisfy your hearing.

The app might be OK- which one is it? I use the one from Dynaudio- check that out (it measures SPL & RTA) and it's pretty good. Another one that I use is ClapIR, which is for measuring reverberation time. If you clap your hands and hear distinct repeats, the room will need some treatment. REW will show if/how well the treatments are working as you move them.

 

[Fried Chicken]

I'm quite partial to this design, the looks, not the entire build, (seen in the thumbnail/preview), with the ports on the bottom.

This 15" MONSTER will shake your house! Insane Bass!!! DIY Home Subwoofer Build - DIY Voice

#diyhomesubwoofer #subwoofer #hometheater This DIY Home Subwoofer is a monster. Dayton Audio recently released their new maximum excursion MX15-22 15″ subwoofer. So what did I do? Built a monster Home Theater subwoofer tuned down to 20hz, that is guaranteed to have you feel those deep bass notes...

diyvoice.com

 

[ryanosaur]

The DIY Marty builds can be very fulfilling, too. There is a very long thread over on AVS dedicated to the Marty Sub Concept. Your video is making me think of the Marty Subs.

Again, this all comes down to your values and what you want to achieve. Along with that... How much you are willing to spend to achieve it.


MDF out here on the West Coast is over $50 a sheet for 3/4" stock.

Sonotubes become an alluring option because of the cost and weight.

 

[highfigh]

The DIY Marty builds can be very fulfilling, too. There is a very long thread over on AVS dedicated to the Marty Sub Concept. Your video is making me think of the Marty Subs.

Again, this all comes down to your values and what you want to achieve. Along with that... How much you are willing to spend to achieve it.


MDF out here on the West Coast is over $50 a sheet for 3/4" stock.

Sonotubes become an alluring option because of the cost and weight.

Big speakers of the past were made from common plywood. It can be used now, but I would ONLY go to a good lumber yard or a place that sells to the cabinetmaking industry because the stuff from big box stores is absolute crap. I tried to use some and it never went well- I cut the parts for a small cabinet for storing screws, sanding discs/paper & other things- I cut them on one day and when I went out to assemble it, I had a pile of potato chips because it had warped. I have other (good) plywood that has been in the same garage, under the same conditions, for ten years and it's totally flat.

The cost does make Sonotubes an attractive option, though.