Need your help here

[Kishore0416]

Hi All,

For one of the restaurants , i am providing a music system. Here i am using denon dra 800h and 14 jbl arena 6ic speakers. I am planning to connect 4 speakers to left in speaker A and 4 to right in speaker A. Do you think this will damage the amp or speakers, please advise....any small suggestion is a great help .....

 

[lovinthehd]

Doesn't sound like a verty good idea. Why not get a proper distribution amp?

 

[Kishore0416]

Doesn't sound like a verty good idea. Why not get a proper distribution amp?

Ok..can you share some examples of distribution amp

 

[BMXTRIX]

For a restaurant that is getting basic background audio, you should be using 70v speakers and a single 70v amp to power them all.

The speakers you have specified are completely overkill for background audio in a non-critical listening environment, and while I like JBL, their 70v speakers are absolute garbage for installers. You also should consider whether you need plenum rated speakers for the space or not and what type of ceiling it is going into. A drop ceiling will need speaker tile bridges to support them and they should be tied off above the ceiling for liability purposes. If it is not a plenum ceiling, you can get away with non-plenum speakers. But, you should know the legalities of this and if it is a air handling space or not. If you don't understand this, then do some homework and ask here for more information. There are some, myself included, who are well versed in commercial audio installations.

Back to speaker options...
JBL commercial speakers are basically unchanged after 20+ years. They haven't come up with any new designs in ages, and a big issue, IMO, is their lack of magnetic grills. Since installers have to get under the grills to set them up, I have seen grills missing, dented, and just poor looking after they are in service for a while. Magnetic grills basically solve this issue. So, go with another manufacturer who uses magnetic grills.

Comparing a speaker like this...

6.5" 2-Way 70V Commercial In-Ceiling Speaker w/ Backcan, Single - ICE630ST

Check out the deal on 6.5" 2-Way 70V Commercial In-Ceiling Speaker w/ Backcan, Single - ICE630ST at OSDAudio.com

www.osdaudio.com

To one like this...

SAROS IC6T-W-T-EACH+ [Crestron Electronics, Inc.]

www.crestron.com

One of the biggest things of note is that the later offers a adjustable 70v voltage selector on the front of the speaker rather than the back. It also is a much higher quality transformer and driver with up to 60 watts of power handling over the 70v line. Is it worth the extra money? IMO, yes. There are similar models from a number of commercial manufacturers. About $100/speaker is typical. On the SUPER cheap side is something like this...

https://www.amazon.com/Rockville-Commercial-Ceiling-Speakers-Restaurant/dp/B07Y2WV2NY/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=70V+Speaker&qid=1644841222&sr=8-4

Which is likely perfectly usable in a non-plenum ceiling for low-level background music.

For amplification, you will want something with enough power to drive the 14 speakers. If set to a 15 watt tap, then you need about 250 watts of power from the amplifier to drive them all. With a 10 watt tap, which is plenty for background audio, you can get by with a 200 watt amplifier.

Extron XPA 2001 70V Xtra Power Amplifier 22099585947 | eBay

<p>Extron XPA 2001 70V Xtra Power Amplifier. Works well</p>

www.ebay.com

That's a 200 watt 70v amplifier, to your door, for under 50 bucks. And it will last pretty much FOREVER.

If the ceiling isn't a plenum space, you could literally do this, with reasonable results, for about $300 in materials.

 

[Kishore0416]

Thanks a lot for a detailed review here....it is a gypsum ceiling...the restaurant was more specific about good music quality, hence i went ahead with JBL 6IC, it is 2500 square feet area and installing only 14 spekers...hope this is not a over kill..dra 800h is a good music amplifier with network, zone and speaker A/B options..as they want zoning, i used this....please let me know if i can connect 3 speakers to A and 3 speakers to b and 8 speakers to crown xls 1502 ...all using series and parellel combination to maintain 8ohms impedance....thanks once again...i owe you a lot

 

[BMXTRIX]

...it is a gypsum ceiling...

Unfortunately, that's not enough information to know if it is plenum or not. Most commercial drop ceilings are plenum. This means that the return air for the space is not ducted, but uses the ceiling as the return path. This makes it part of the air handling system, and requires certain fire codes to be met.

the restaurant was more specific about good music quality, hence i went ahead with JBL 6IC, it is 2500 square feet area and installing only 14 spekers...hope this is not a over kill..dra 800h is a good music amplifier with network, zone and speaker A/B options..as they want zoning, i used this....please let me know if i can connect 3 speakers to A and 3 speakers to b and 8 speakers to crown xls 1502 ...all using series and parellel combination to maintain 8ohms impedance....thanks once again...i owe you a lot

I would still not do it this way. It just isn't standard and those speakers can NOT go into a plenum ceiling. It's illegal.
Likewise, all the speaker cabling must be plenum rated if it is a plenum space. By fire code. If there is a fire, and that wire is found up there, there can be potential legal issues.

If you have multiple zones of audio you are trying to drive separately, then I would get a mixer and use multiple amps. Literally, three of the amps I linked to can be had, and provide real world power to tons of speakers with solid quality for way less than you are talking about spending. Don't put in 14 speakers if you need 30 speakers. Look at the coverage area of the speakers related to ceiling height and then put in the right number. Cranking a speaker up will just make one area noisy and the next area quiet. It may sound 'good', but it won't provide even music coverage of the space. I would probably go with about 20 speakers for that much space for even coverage. One speaker per 130 square feet so you don't overdo any single area.

You still have to deal with zoning, and how you want things split up and in what way and why. It is rare to adjust audio in a space to different levels unless there are different spaces, then a simple volume control, or mixer, can handle that duty properly and easily.

Finally, you can't play commercial audio in a public space without opening the restaurant up to legal liability. They have a requirement to purchase commercially licensed music. They can play what they want for private events, but if the space is open to the public, it is illegal to just play whatever you want.

 

[Kishore0416]

Thanks for all these suggestions. ..will implement all these....going forward, wil take yur opinion before i share the solution with clients...lots of information...thanks for all these...

 

[Pogre]

Finally, you can't play commercial audio in a public space without opening the restaurant up to legal liability. They have a requirement to purchase commercially licensed music. They can play what they want for private events, but if the space is open to the public, it is illegal to just play whatever you want.

I did not know that. Huh.

 

[Eppie]

I did not know that. Huh.

It's no different from bars playing sporting events on television. You have to be licensed. Technically the same is true for live music. If the band plays cover tunes you need to pay the appropriate licensing fees. Some bar owners try and get away with it, but in Canada we had to register with SOCAN and provide a set list to the bar owner wherever we played. For original music, if we registered the songs with SOCAN we could include them on the list and be part of the royalty process but I think there were certain conditions that had to be met. I left all of that crap to the singer / songwriter. Paperwork sucks!

 

[Kishore0416]

I did not know that. Huh.

I agree. Frankly speaking, i am an installer. I guess restaurant owners will take care of it. I will surely pass the details to them.

 

[highfigh]

I did not know that. Huh.

Next time you go to a commercial place that plays music, look on the doors for stickers with ASCAP and/or BMI-

ASCAP Licensing for Business: Compliance, Laws, & Fines | Insights

ASCAP is transparent about licenses, rates, and fines. If you're a business owner, you can browse their list to see what fees look like for your business.

cloudcovermusic.com

Broadcast Music, Inc. (BMI)

BMI, the world’s leading performing rights organization, advocates for the value of music, representing over 22.4 million works of more than 1.4 million copyright owners.

www.bmi.com

 

[highfigh]

I agree. Frankly speaking, i am an installer. I guess restaurant owners will take care of it. I will surely pass the details to them.

Is it safe to assume that you don't normally install systems in larger spaces like this and/or work mainly in residential? Large spaces and commercial installations are a different world because they tend to use different equipment, sources (Muzak, other alternatives) exist for stores, restaurants and other places to play music and make sure the establishment isn't hounded for not paying the fees (they're paid with the subscription). As BMX posted, 70V is a common type of system but it's not absolutely required. However, providing the proper impedance for the amplifiers is crucial and this is a consumer/CI receiver that doesn't have preamp outputs for the main zone, so it's really not the best choice. It's probably a good receiver and I have used this type in some applications, but you didn't mention zone control, source switching, system control (who can and can't control it), or safeguards for the system when the place is closed and the cleaning crew/bartenders want to treat the system like a farm animal.

 

[highfigh]

Thanks a lot for a detailed review here....it is a gypsum ceiling...the restaurant was more specific about good music quality, hence i went ahead with JBL 6IC, it is 2500 square feet area and installing only 14 spekers...hope this is not a over kill..dra 800h is a good music amplifier with network, zone and speaker A/B options..as they want zoning, i used this....please let me know if i can connect 3 speakers to A and 3 speakers to b and 8 speakers to crown xls 1502 ...all using series and parellel combination to maintain 8ohms impedance....thanks once again...i owe you a lot

You should be using speakers with a back box and JBL has several models.

3 speakers can't be connected in any way that will provide 4 or 8 Ohm impedance and using load resistors only wastes power. If you wire them in series, the load will be 24 Ohms, if they're parallel, it will be 2.67 Ohms, if you wire them series/parallel, it will be about 5.3 Ohms. The last scheme would probably be safe for the receiver, but the speakers won't play at the same level- the two in series will be quieter.

How will the speakers be grouped? If you may need to control some and not others, you'll need some kind of level control and series/parallel won't let you do that easily. While it's probably going to break the budget, using a multi-channel amplifier with some kind of control for pairs/groups will make the system much more flexible and it will work better, last longer, etc.

Describe the restaurant, its clientele and the type of music that will be played. If any of these has to do with a younger crowd, you're gonna need at least one subwoofer because in-ceiling speakers aren't going to fill the place well/make an impact. The last thing you want is for the owners to hear the music and say, "Oh". That's it?".

I have used the Dayton multi-channel power amps in several applications and they have the ability to bridge the channels, turn on with 12VDC trigger, sense the input signal or be turned on manually. The channels can be grouped or connected to different sources, each with its own input level control. I have used the ART HeadAmp to control the channel input levels and it allows controlling before the amp, rather than wasting power by controlling the level after the amp and possibly damaging the control by sending too much power. A small mixer can be used if multiple sources are used. The brand of the power amp isn't as important as the design- Dayton, Russound, Niles and Parasound all sell amplifiers that are configured similarly.

Again, make sure the system can't be abused- the owners will be happy and you won't get any trouble calls at night when you're doing something else. Like sleeping.

 

[Trebdp83]

Great stuff guys. I found this to be an interesting read as well.

How to Legally Play Music in Your Business - Plagiarism Today

Many businesses want to play music for their customers or employees. However, doing so legally means taking some time and figuring out your needs.

www.plagiarismtoday.com

 

[Pogre]

It's no different from bars playing sporting events on television. You have to be licensed. Technically the same is true for live music. If the band plays cover tunes you need to pay the appropriate licensing fees. Some bar owners try and get away with it, but in Canada we had to register with SOCAN and provide a set list to the bar owner wherever we played. For original music, if we registered the songs with SOCAN we could include them on the list and be part of the royalty process but I think there were certain conditions that had to be met. I left all of that crap to the singer / songwriter. Paperwork sucks!

Next time you go to a commercial place that plays music, look on the doors for stickers with ASCAP and/or BMI-

ASCAP Licensing for Business: Compliance, Laws, & Fines | Insights

ASCAP is transparent about licenses, rates, and fines. If you're a business owner, you can browse their list to see what fees look like for your business.

cloudcovermusic.com

Broadcast Music, Inc. (BMI)

BMI, the world’s leading performing rights organization, advocates for the value of music, representing over 22.4 million works of more than 1.4 million copyright owners.

www.bmi.com

Oh yeah it makes sense to me, I just never thought of it before. Does that include juke boxes too?

 

[highfigh]

Oh yeah it makes sense to me, I just never thought of it before. Does that include juke boxes too?

Yup- any music played in a place where they gain, financially. It's an older plan that was somewhat copied when C-Band satellite was gaining steam- they wanted to charge users if they 'financially benefited' from showing the programs.

Then, we got Satellite and Cable TV and the cost has skyrocketed ever since.

I had to install some replacement audio equipment in a grocery store- don't remember the company that provided the music streaming but it was similar to Muzak and may have become part of the same business entity.

 

[BMXTRIX]

MOOD: Media is the outfit which bought Musak or changed the name or whatever happened. It looks like other companies go through Mood: for their licensing and paperwork needs in some ways. They are definitely one of the largest out there.

I think the biggest headaches are around the players not being very consumer friendly. It is such a massive headache to get everything setup, but can be just as much of a pain to manage all of it. The last Mood: players I worked with were complete garbage. Barely more than a Raspberry Pi with a GUI on the front. Sad considering the upfront costs and recurring fees.