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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
I was watching "Inside 9-11" and it goes through the terrorist timeline to the day it happened. My biggest takeaways were a) the Clinton admin had numerous chances to get UBL and stood down, and b) under the Bush admin in the Summer of 2001 the chatter height was "blinking red" heavily. The PDB said "Bin Laden To Strike In America" which I think gets back into the Cold War system of thinking abroad. My guess was the Bush admin were planning on Saddam as a priority. If I'm correct NSA Condi Rice was demoted. Amongst other things you can't say the report "was based on historical data." The UBL plan wasn't even on Condi's table till September 11th. It's chatter. You have to go look for it. At least try. But not do NOTHING.

Some other really dumb things....
- switch blades allowed on planes
- security wander wands a terrorist with what appears to be a knife in the back pocket
- terrorists simply said they lost their passports and received new ones, which erased their travel history
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Not the most timely comment on this subject, but OK. Another decent documentary that touches on the Sept 11 attacks is called The Power of Nightmares. It takes a broader look at the socio-political environment of the attacks and the USA's response to it, and it also draws parallels between the neoconservatives who capitalized on the attacks and the Islamic fundamentalists who promoted terrorism for their own gains.
 
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sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
All I know for sure is how the aftermath of 9-11 effected me. I owned and operated an ad agency which represented Outdoor Stores all over the mid west. After 9-11 folks stopped flying and thus stopped outfitting for their adventure. This caused many of the Outdoor Stores I represented to go out of business and me to partially retire. Then interestingly enough, a few years later, being retired, I was able to accept an invitation from the ARMY to assist the USAMU effort to train Soldiers how to shoot their Service Rifles at Long Range. That was a strange turn of events for me. Both events being a product of 9-11.
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Ramzi Yousef was the guy who parked the van full of explosives under the WTC in '93. He had plans of exploding 12 commercial planes over the pacific, killing the pope, and hijackings as missiles. Terrible person, but also a genius who could use watches as explosives etc. Kahlid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM) was the mastermind behind 9-11 and used RY's idea. UBL reduced it down to four flights as he felt too ambitious a plan would be discovered. KSM was getting frustrated with UBL because he was openly bragging to peers about a big plan. I assume that's why there was so much chatter being picked up. When RY was arrested at a UBL safe house, ironically KSM was staying in a another room and escaped. Flight 77 I believe was aiming for the WH, but because it's very difficult to see overhead, I went to the Pentagon. Flight 93 had crashed in a field thanks to the passengers, but it also was late taking off by 30 minutes or so. Had it been on time, the best outcome likely would've been crashing in the metro area of the Capitol. The airlines eventually tipped off security to the red teams testing. Basically everything was getting through, and these were not highly concealed items. It was a cost/benefit decision to which they lost. WOOPS! Gov't bailed them out, and I'm guessing for much of security detection too. (Given they had the infrastructure I don't think gov't had much choice but to.) I wanna say the airlines were either losing money but weren't in profitable times. About the only positive is the system's been updated and it hasn't happened again. However, to me it's still America's darkest day. Can't get that one back.

Another dumb thing was how the red alert system wasn't updated in airport terminals.
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
I know a service person died when a jumper landed on top of him. I believe it was around 1-200 that jumped. The planes were traveling between 480-570 MPH. It's difficult for me to this day to even comprehend something going that fast. This is the best animation on the Pentagon IMO. At 570 mph you'd think there was more damage, but the Pentagon was made with reinforced concrete and beams. I believe the engine reached the middle C-ring.

 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Another interesting tidbit in recovery is finding pilot Ziad Jarrah's partially burned license from Flight 93. You can see what must be the engines blowing thru the other side of the WTCs. Estimated distance 3 or 4 blocks. I know an aircraft piece was discovered years later landing between a very narrow space between two buildings.
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
If you're into this sort of thing. Some good simulations at youtube. I just left the main one on WTC. #1 started it's collapse more internally since the plain went more directly into the center core taking out all three stairwells. #2 though hit later fell sooner because the corner was taken out at lower levels.

WTC


Bldg 7
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
I was watching some more documentaries. There's so many.

Clinton administration had nine opportunities to get UBL. He was smart enough in a few instances to have foreign princes visit for us to access the risk. Richard Clarke acknowledged we weren't doing that. Michael Scheuer was adamant it was treason from the Clinton administration. The UBL plan wasn't even on Condi's desk till the day of 9-11. That summer the system was blinking red. Then it died off. Intel even said it was likely due to delays. Condis statement on the system blinking was that was based on historical data. Woops. I believe she was demoted. I'd say the primary was Clinton, and secondary the Bush administration.

The engines blew through the WTCs about 4-6 blocks away since they were about the only solid pieces left including landing gears etc. The second tower hit was going an estimated 590mph. The plane that hit the Pentagon, its engine went to the C-ring. It went from A-E. If I'm correct that was the portion of the Pentagon that had just been constructed with reinforced concrete.

Sad but ingenious plan. Reporter John Miller and others thought nothing of UBL as a threat from a cave. He'd been exiled, and his family wealth had been stripped from him.

Edit: I know the edges of the WTC hotel were reinforced with concrete. That's what saved some of those people below. The miracle of stairwell B (WTC 1) I likened to extremely lucky yet plausible since those firefighters were near the bottom. It was the guy who was laying on a platform a couple stories up I thought was amazing to survive.

You couldn't pay me to be a politician and say in front of the camera 'see its safe to fly again!' It was disheartening to hear politicians cover for our defense system. We had no idea. Flying east of NY over the ocean. Launching when Flight 93 already crashed. At least the woman pilot acknowledged they weren't even close.

There's another video of a group of firefighters waiting a block or two at the base of the towers. Maybe 50 of em watching jumpers. A reporter starts shooting and that's when the first tower fell. He'd say later he ducked into a door nearby. Be interesting to know if the others made it.

The FAA never called the air defense system. Curious to know why since they are protocalled for standard hijackings. I know the director said these red alert tests where they try and smuggle fake bombs on board were deemed useless since a hijacker could just threaten a cabin's death to get access to the cockpit. Cost/benefit not sure.

There's other amazing video of one tower down and a person is roaming around next to it. Right before the second tower went the last person out was being interviewed. You could see him hauling ass moments later. Another person who was one of the last out was hit by debris and woke up in a hospital nearly untouched.

The architect said the towers were built to withstand the impact of a 737. Back then though they didn't have the modeling for damage due to fire. Nor the ability to access the fire resistance being blown off from impact. They were built with core columns and a steel girder exterior and truss floors to tie it together to maximize office space instead of traditional girder throughout. It meant the bldg was very hollow. Cheaper fire resistant materials were used in the stairwells vs say concrete. The two towers acted as a wind barrier from the other. Conclusion was they performed acceptably under the conditions. I think though that's due to construction economics. The new WTC is built like a tank but maybe fear and overblown. Since it's a symbol of the US I guess. Ah when the old ones were hit they were described as having a tremendous sway to them. I wonder if the new one has any of that.

Military informed Intel about two hijackers living in the FL area. I'd bet they didn't have jurisdiction and told military to stand down. Or it really was about power like how the FBI/CIA fued over turf. One reporter said hey did you know there's a radical anti American conference? Intel said you must be outta your fucking mind to cover up jurisdiction problems. Something happens well we didn't know about it. Phillipines Intel had info on a plot that was never passed to us. CIA guy says ok well even if we had that info doesn't mean we for sure would've stopped it. Beyond administration it was system wide problem. The alert system wasn't wasn't even updated at the airports. You could carry a 4" knife on board. You.could pass through a security wander without much resistance. Kind of a joke you look back on it. Heads in Intel weren't even informed it was so closed off.

KSM was the uncle of Ramzi Yousef. Didn't remember that. He advanced the ideas of Yousef's '93 WTC plot. Stairs were highlighted to make exiting more visible. Plus the day of 9-11 was on an election so who knows how many more. KSM was trying to get UBL to STFU (ie Intel chatter and bragging). Really don't like Condi much on Katrina either. Buying shoes Fargasios, tennis with Monica Seles, going to a play etc. Someone in the street said 'how dare you do that while people are sleeping on the ground!' Good lesson in PR LOL.

79-89 Afghan/Russia War but really just leaving and the Civil War after. The rise of the Taliban. UBL took it personally Saudi Arabia used US military vs his troops LOL. Protecting the oil fields from Saddam but then potentially gaining Afghan natural resources. A very good fatwa storyline. :confused:
 
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SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic General
I was watching "Inside 9-11" and it goes through the terrorist timeline to the day it happened. My biggest takeaways were a) the Clinton admin had numerous chances to get UBL and stood down, and b) under the Bush admin in the Summer of 2001 the chatter height was "blinking red" heavily. The PDB said "Bin Laden To Strike In America" which I think gets back into the Cold War system of thinking abroad. My guess was the Bush admin were planning on Saddam as a priority. If I'm correct NSA Condi Rice was demoted. Amongst other things you can't say the report "was based on historical data." The UBL plan wasn't even on Condi's table till September 11th. It's chatter. You have to go look for it. At least try. But not do NOTHING.

Some other really dumb things....
- switch blades allowed on planes
- security wander wands a terrorist with what appears to be a knife in the back pocket
- terrorists simply said they lost their passports and received new ones, which erased their travel history
Did not know this forum existed. Just catching up on.

Regarding Condi Rice, I don't remember her being demoted. The below is Condi being questions by a prickly Ben Veniste from the 911 commission.
I have not gone back to read the commission report in some time but I remember the takeaways:
After 1993, AQ had 7 years to set this up with US operatives domestically in place during that time.
BL could have been neutralized many times in the late 1990s but was not.

Always felt this factor was understated. The Bush Admin got off to a very late start because of Gore disputing the election results in Florida. There were way behind on staffing well into the late spring.

When you read Condi's testimony, it might put that August PDB in more perspective.

 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Did not know this forum existed. Just catching up on.

Regarding Condi Rice, I don't remember her being demoted. The below is Condi being questions by a prickly Ben Veniste from the 911 commission.
I have not gone back to read the commission report in some time but I remember the takeaways:
After 1993, AQ had 7 years to set this up with US operatives domestically in place during that time.
BL could have been neutralized many times in the late 1990s but was not.

Always felt this factor was understated. The Bush Admin got off to a very late start because of Gore disputing the election results in Florida. There were way behind on staffing well into the late spring.

When you read Condi's testimony, it might put that August PDB in more perspective.

Ah no.
-Based on historical data but the attacks happened.
-We have multiple domestic investigations taking place but I'm not aware of any threat inside
-Bin Laden to Strike In America
-Intel pointing to hijackings as the likely target
-Condi on the Commission: 'who could have thought of planes-as-missiles.'

Inclined to think the Bush administration were in Cold War model and had other priorities like Saddam. Clinton administration the primary due to multiple opportunities passed; Bush administration for the above. Clarke was probably begging them for help in light of his earlier failings as well as not having a clue.
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Particularly daft is her testimony. As the NSA your job is to be proactive, not oh OK you're working on it. Especially dumb when you add in blinking red with it was based on historical data.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I was watching "Inside 9-11" and it goes through the terrorist timeline to the day it happened. My biggest takeaways were a) the Clinton admin had numerous chances to get UBL and stood down, and b) under the Bush admin in the Summer of 2001 the chatter height was "blinking red" heavily. The PDB said "Bin Laden To Strike In America" which I think gets back into the Cold War system of thinking abroad. My guess was the Bush admin were planning on Saddam as a priority. If I'm correct NSA Condi Rice was demoted. Amongst other things you can't say the report "was based on historical data." The UBL plan wasn't even on Condi's table till September 11th. It's chatter. You have to go look for it. At least try. But not do NOTHING.

Some other really dumb things....
- switch blades allowed on planes
- security wander wands a terrorist with what appears to be a knife in the back pocket
- terrorists simply said they lost their passports and received new ones, which erased their travel history
Switch blades, or box cutters and utility knives?
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
My general feeling is while most of it can be leveled at Clinton, there's this feeling for me the Bush admin didn't throw everything they could into it. It never happened here, and nothing could ever happen here. More like if you fail, you fail throwing everything at it. I think Clarke was highly concerned after the Clinton administration, and there is a unclassified memo saying to the effect we don't want to be Warhawks. That might have been Clarke but don't know. I'd be surprised if domestic concerns was high up on Cheney/Rummy's list.
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
The flights were specifically picked for cross country to hold more gas, like 8-10,000 gl. One said the plan wasn't that sophisticated, but I beg to differ. The hijackers scoped flights, and it required the steel of ring leader Mohammad Atta. A little more mature and in his 30s, he was described as wearing the same clothes and eating the same meal. A customer service representative at an airline on the day thought he was looking at a terrorist with his anger but brushed it off. The hijackers spent their money pretty conservatively and returned the rest to the financiers. I'm sure that's why Saudi Arabia etc were investigated because they had people in govt sympathetic to the cause. Regarding scoping flights, actor James Woods remembered something fishy happening on a flight. Afterward witnesses remember seeing Atta scoping around the terminals.
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Flight 77 left from the east but didn't make its turn back till it reached Ohio. The transponder was turned off so they were still looking west. It probably was aiming for the WH but it's hard to see that high up, made a circle, and hauled ass for the Pentagon at like 570mph.

Flight 93 was late like 30-45 min and likely would've hit the metro area even with the rebellion. Thankfully it didn't. The pilot was tipping the wings back and forth during the revolt and possibly tipped upside down before hitting Shanksville. The license of pilot Ziad Jarrah was recovered. Of the team he was giving Atta the most problems to his dedication as he was traveling back.to.visit his girlfriend but in the end sounds very extremist.
 
SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic General
Ah no.
-Based on historical data but the attacks happened.
-We have multiple domestic investigations taking place but I'm not aware of any threat inside
-Bin Laden to Strike In America
-Intel pointing to hijackings as the likely target
-Condi on the Commission: 'who could have thought of planes-as-missiles.'

Inclined to think the Bush administration were in Cold War model and had other priorities like Saddam. Clinton administration the primary due to multiple opportunities passed; Bush administration for the above. Clarke was probably begging them for help in light of his earlier failings as well as not having a clue.
Agree the Bush adm was certainly staffed with old Cold Warriors including Rice herself being a Russian expert.
Reading the testimony, I don't think daft is the word many would use. The 911 commission final findings did not cite this. The major factor they did cite was the lack of communication (Wall) between the FBI and the CIA in the 90s leading up to 911 and the failure of the FAA. Speaking of the Wall, anyone remember the name Jamie Gorelick, Deputy AG, under Clinton?

A 1995 Department of Justice memorandum states that the procedures her memorandum put in place for the investigation of the 1993 WTC bombing "go beyond what is legally required...[to] prevent any risk of creating an unwarranted appearance that FISA is being used to avoid procedural safeguards which would apply in a criminal investigation." The wall intentionally exceeded the requirements of FISA (the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978) for the purposes of criminal investigations, as well as the then-existing federal case law. These rules were, shortly after their creation, expanded to regulate such communications in future counter-terrorism investigations.[19]

Since Bush was in office only 8 months, the "historical" information consists of what the the CIA and FBI were during the Clinton years and how they were lead. A better question to ask is, why wasn't a more aggressive approach undertaken to attack AQ then? BL was obviously "red Light" in the late 90s because we were one final order away from taking him out. So we must have had enough evidence in the late 90s to justify killing him.
We didn't. Why? Could it be the White House was distracted by other issues? Impeachment, lying to everyone about Ms Lewinsky? How many FBI assets that could have been investigating AQ were used in her investigations?

Around the time of her testimony to the Commission, smear tactics thrown at her to try to prove her "incompetence" regarding her role in the Iraq war. Also, they knew she was in line for the Sec. of State job and wanted to derail that. Finally the sources of the Anti Condi crowd were mainly former Clinton officials who wished to downplay there roles in not fighting terrorism pre 911. A big fat source was Clarke himself who was promoting his book in 2004. And, let's not forget Sandy Berger's activities in removing documents related to the 911 commission.

Certainly I can find things I could criticise about Ms. Rice during her time in office. This is not one of them.
As for blame for 911, I think a 90/10% split of blame between administrations is much more accurate if not understated.
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
The President's Daily Brief Coverup
ROEMER: Let me ask you a question. You just said that the intelligence coming in indicated a big, big, big threat. Something was going to happen very soon and be potentially catastrophic. I don't understand, given the big threat, why the big principals don't get together. The principals meet 33 times in seven months, on Iraq, on the Middle East, on missile defense, China, on Russia. Not once do the principals ever sit down -- you, in your job description as the national security advisor, the secretary of state, the secretary of defense, the president of the United States -- and meet solely on terrorism to discuss in the spring and the summer, when these threats are coming in, when you've known since the transition that Al Qaida cells are in the United States, when, as the PDB said on August, bin Laden determined to attack the United States. Why don't the principals at that point say, Let's all talk about this, let's get the biggest people together in our government and discuss what this threat is and try to get our bureaucracies responding to it?
 
SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic General
Yes that's the first question of the segment of Roemer's questions that I posted earlier.
She responds to that question and more afterwards. Was it her, the FBI, the CIA, the existence of the Wall?
Any one can read it and make up there own mind.
 
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Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Several years back I believe a landing gear was found in between two buildings in downtown NY LOL.

Edit: Michael Scheuer was the head of Alex Station, the department dedicated to investigating UBL. It was named after Scheuer's son. An assistant of his compiled a schematic that outlined UBL and the various people working under him with their roles in the organization. Scheuer probably had the most knowledge about UBL at the time. When UBL would watch video of himself, some would criticize it for being ego-drive, but Scheuer would say the mostly likely reason was he was analyzing the effectiveness of his delivery on his fatwa. Scheuer was probably not a favorite in intel circles. He butted heads and would speak his mind.

Beyond 9-11, UBLs accomplishment was creating these small terrorist cells around the globe and helping to finance them.

UBLs organization would name itself something like Administration of Services to maintain a low profile. On the plan, wedding would mean plot; towers, pentagon, capitol etc would all be given different names in case picked up in chatter by intel. 9-11 was two matchsticks, a dash, and a backwards 9. UBL reduced the scale of the plot to just the four airplanes. They'd wanted to do LA's airport, a powerplant, the Sears tower etc.
 
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