Can PS Audio Make a Flagship Level Perfoming Loudspeaker?

[lovinthehd]

Oh wow I guess I had no idea. He kinda makes it seem like in the videos that they have this big building and I guess I just jumped to conclusions that everything was made in house right here. I coupled that with how expensive their products are. Never assume right or you become the first 3 letters of that word.

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Paul is a salesman....if you're talking about where he supposedly has a guy build a prototype then tests it and gives feedback on how to tweak it to some audible parameter.....LOL!

 

[mono-bloc]

The ridiculous prices and aesthetics? The quality of audio not being particularly great?

Wilson are no different to any other high end speaker manufacturer, including Magico, YG, Rockport , MBL, etc These brands are not for everyone, as most of North America is bankrupt, this is not where there market is intended for.. The latest Magico M9 went to a buyer in Singapore, another in Hong Kong,. But that being said there main markets are in Turkey and Indonesia The thing with Wilson is there not an easy speaker to drive, but given the right amplification, , Gryphon, Boulder, Soulution. And the newly discovered Block from Poland, they really have had an impact on on the high end world But tell us have you owned Wilson or are you simply blowing smoke, on something you have no first hand knowledge off

 

[lovinthehd]

Wilson are no different to any other high end speaker manufacturer, including Magico, YG, Rockport , MBL, etc These brands are not for everyone, as most of North America is bankrupt, this is not where there market is intended for.. The latest Magico M9 went to a buyer in Singapore, another in Hong Kong,. But that being said there main markets are in Turkey and Indonesia The thing with Wilson is there not an easy speaker to drive, but given the right amplification, , Gryphon, Boulder, Soulution. And the newly discovered Block from Poland, they really have had an impact on on the high end world But tell us have you owned Wilson or are you simply blowing smoke, on something you have no first hand knowledge off

What are you trying to "quote"?

Sounds like you're the one blowing smoke. Why in hell would I buy something as stupid as Wilson? Or Magico? I'd build my own long before going the route of throwing money at those brands.

 

[lovinthehd]

@mono-bloc while we're at it, why don't you try and explain why you would go that route particularly with amps.....should be amusing.

 

[D Murphy]

If the whole thing is indeed made in China, i estimate that it costs sneaky li'l Paul about 3k per speaker pair. He is looking to bag 25k in profit per pair.

I have some experience in Chinese sourcing. If he can bring those speakers in for 3K, including shipping, he must be blackmailing the Chinese authorities.

 

[gene]

I heard Anthony Grimani comment on one of your streams that cables make a very slight audible difference, but treatments, etc make a much bigger difference. Now, he's a smart dude. So, I am starting to wonder, hmmm, perhaps a blind test and lie detector test is in order to test you with your exotic Kimber cables vs some 10 dollar Amazon wire.... wouldn't you think?

Nah, I already know there won't be an audible difference between my Kimbers and 10AWG cable. Anthony is playing nice with his comment. Only very badly designed cables can be sonically distinguishable.

 

[mono-bloc]

It all comes down to numbers produced. I've visited some of these factory's. Your standard speaker model is simply a elongated box. The sheets of MDF are produced in an adjoining factory. They come over via a conveyer belt and land in a giant CNC machine. They cut out 5 sheets at a time. Another CNC machine produces the front baffles. The cut out sections are then placed in a jig, where there stapled together, and the front baffle fitted again with staples. Next step in the veneer,, shop, which is steamed on with glues and heat. Cabinet finished, Total time under 10 minutes. As for the hard ware We've all seen the price lists in our local electronics' store . Buy one at a price, buy 5 at a lower price, The Chines talk in millions. They can turn out your average AVR for something like twenty dollars. And frankly that's all your average AVR is worth. As for the better speaker models, these are made under license and quality control is strict, these are normally entry level models of established brands. In some models they only build the cabinets, and they leave the factory empty, to be returned to the makers factory for the electronics to be fitted. Any cabinets not up to standard are discarded and destroyed.

 

[Hetfield]

It all comes down to numbers produced. I've visited some of these factory's. Your standard speaker model is simply a elongated box. The sheets of MDF are produced in an adjoining factory. They come over via a conveyer belt and land in a giant CNC machine. They cut out 5 sheets at a time. Another CNC machine produces the front baffles. The cut out sections are then placed in a jig, where there stapled together, and the front baffle fitted again with staples. Next step in the veneer,, shop, which is steamed on with glues and heat. Cabinet finished, Total time under 10 minutes. As for the hard ware We've all seen the price lists in our local electronics' store . Buy one at a price, buy 5 at a lower price, The Chines talk in millions. They can turn out your average AVR for something like twenty dollars. And frankly that's all your average AVR is worth. As for the better speaker models, these are made under license and quality control is strict, these are normally entry level models of established brands. In some models they only build the cabinets, and they leave the factory empty, to be returned to the makers factory for the electronics to be fitted. Any cabinets not up to standard are discarded and destroyed.

Wow awesome insight. It's actually a subject I'm fascinated with. I used to own Def Tech speakers for many years and of course made in China. Designed in the US/made in China stamp. I used to think it's there some plant in China that says Definitive technology? That's before I knew better. I guess that's not exactly how it works.

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[Kvn_Walker]

A lot of brands used to be built in North America and have moved some or all production to China. A few I can think of on a whim:

Klipsch (the Heritage models have US cabinets but Chinese drivers, everything else is 100% China)

Revel

B&W (some top models are still built in Europe)

PSB

JBL (some models but not all)

KEF

The sins of the 1990's (cheap labor!) have just caught up with us, is all.

 

[Am_P]

I have some experience in Chinese sourcing. If he can bring those speakers in for 3K, including shipping, he must be blackmailing the Chinese authorities.

Let us reconsider the assessment with shipping costs inc. 800 bucks more (pushing it) for ocean freight brings up Paul's costs to 3800. He spends 600 bucks for freight shipping from CO to the lower 48. Paul's costs have risen to 4400 USD.

Sneaky Lil Paul profits /pair = 28000 - 4400 = 23.6k
Sneaky Lil Paul = very very happy
Wives of the "PS Audio Stag Family" = very very not happy

 

[D Murphy]

Let us reconsider the assessment with shipping costs inc. 800 bucks more (pushing it) for ocean freight brings up Paul's costs to 3800. He spends 600 bucks for freight shipping from CO to the lower 48. Paul's costs have risen to 4400 USD.

Sneaky Lil Paul profits /pair = 28000 - 4400 = 23.6k
Sneaky Lil Paul = very very happy
Wives of the "PS Audio Stag Family" = very very not happy

I think I'm in a better position to judge cabinet costs--and you're don't even seem to be counting in the driver or crossover costs. Our cabinets take about a month to build, half of which is applying the 12 coats of clear. I really doubt that our cabinets are higher quality than the ones Paul is sourcing.

 

[Bucknekked]

No doubt Salk will have a better speaker at a third of the price.

I am a long time Salk owner. I love your reply. Absolutely there's stuff in the Salk line that would be music to my ears at a fraction of the price. Do you have Salks? And not just the Salks, but Dennis Murphy's stuff as well.

 

[Bucknekked]

Likeable or unlikeable, his products from an empirical measurement pov measure incredibly poorly. I take issue with their engineering philosophies that allow what is basically nicely packaged excrement to reach market.

@jinjuku I haven't seen your avatar go by on a post in a good long time. Glad to know you are still out there moderating the unwashed masses.

When I see products from PS Audio, or others famous for gimmicks, the first thing I do is check the price. If the price is out of my league, I can relax and just enjoy whatever claims are made. It's no skin off my nose if his company wants to charge Near $30,000 a pair. It's also no skin off my nose if some audiophile dude wants to install 5 of them for his home theater.

I come to the AH for common sense and price performing ideas. Not every idea fits that mold and kudos to the kids like @gene who give a wide audience some airtime. I like reading about $30K speakers but am in no danger of doing anything more than giving Gene a high five for letting us see them.

 

[ryanosaur]

Dennis is, of course, continuing with his well respected trait of unrestrained humility regarding the quality of the cabinets being sourced for his designs. His business partner has clued us in that the factory producing their cabinets also does cabinets for other high end customers as well.

While I would love to know some of those who source there cabinets from the same facility, I respect the privacy required as well.

I think the mere fact an affordable high end design can be sourced from a manufacturer in another country is just fine. I don't mind a Chinese cabinet if it makes the difference between a pair of Speakers selling at $4K per pair vs 2.5x that for US labor.

Whether PS Audio is sourcing their cabinet build from China, or the whole Dim Sum Bar, their Speaker should still be judged on the merits of performance vs price to consumer.

For me, even if the cost to performance ratio favors the consumer (as it well does with Dennis' Speakers), the asking price is still far too high for me to be willing to consider. Unfortunately, I expect to find the opposite in that PS Audio will be asking far too much for a bucket that barely holds water, and they can go jump in the same pond as Wilson Audio with that.
Maybe they'll still rake it in, and more power to them for that.

My money stays with Dennis.

 

[mono-bloc]

Let us reconsider the assessment with shipping costs inc. 800 bucks

Your shipping costs are way of No one in there right mind buy's one pair of speakers, or anything else for that matter from China. Ask yourself how many speaker cabinets can you fit in a 40 foot container. You pay freight on the container not what's inside it. Now divide the cost of the container between the number of speaker cabinets, Also remember we are not talking one container we are talking in the hundreds, which drops the freight charges even lower.

 

[Am_P]

I think I'm in a better position to judge cabinet costs--and you're don't even seem to be counting in the driver or crossover costs. Our cabinets take about a month to build, half of which is applying the 12 coats of clear. I really doubt that our cabinets are higher quality than the ones Paul is sourcing.

Oh yeah? You are in a better position to judge cabinet costs from where? Arkansas? California? Where on earth were you when you applied the 12 coats of clear? Did you really need 12 coats?

 

[ryanosaur]

Oh yeah? You are in a better position to judge cabinet costs from where? Arkansas? California? Where on earth were you when you applied the 12 coats of clear? Did you really need 12 coats?

He runs a Speaker business.

 

[Hetfield]

Oh yeah? You are in a better position to judge cabinet costs from where? Arkansas? California? Where on earth were you when you applied the 12 coats of clear? Did you really need 12 coats?

Are arguing with a guy that builds speakers?

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[Am_P]

Are arguing with a guy that builds speakers?

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.......Trying to see if he builds em in China or America.

 

[D Murphy]

.......Trying to see if he builds em in China or America.

They're built in China. That was my point. I know what the Chinese charge. It's way less than what it would cost to replicate in the U.S., but it ain't cheap if you're talking about genuinely upscale production, and particularly for cabinets as large as PS Audio is using. But none of this really matters. The PS Audio cabinets look great. They're free to charge any price they want as long as they aren't misrepresenting their product. It's strictly a matter of whether the sound justifies the price for any given buyer.