Def tech BP30, should I Upgrade?

[Pogre]

I appreciate your reply, and while you’re correct that changing the speakers will change the sound of a system more than any other component (not always for the better though), I don’t believe I have anything backwards here, and I’ll explain why I feel that way.

First, he is just looking to “upgrade” his system. He doesn’t say why though, maybe he has some extra money laying around, and he just wants something new. Maybe he’s unimpressed with the performance or sound, or maybe he thinks newer speakers will just automatically sound better because they’re new, we don’t know. What we do know is what components he currently has, so that’s what I’m basing my suggestions on.

Currently he’s powering his system with a ~ $500 lower to mid-range Denon receiver (AVR-1912), which is rated at 90 watts per channel. When you start running 5 or 7 channels off of a relatively lower end AVR like the AVR-1912 though, you typically end up only getting around 30 to 50 watts per channel (if you’re lucky). The Definitive BP30’s are massive towers, with four 6-3/4” mid/bass drivers & 2 tweeters in each enclosure, and they’re rated for 20-500 watts of power. These speakers love power, and they can sound pretty underwhelming if they’re underpowered. It’s not that they ever sound bad, as they have a fairly high sensitivity @ 91dB, but the more (clean) power that you feed them, the better they perform and sound. My recommendation of a 200-400 watt per channel Sunfire (or similar) amplifier would be a massive improvement upon the (maybe) 30-50 watts his current AVR is feeding the BP30’s now. The difference in the way the BP30’s will sound with quality separate, high power amplification is most certainly not placebo or bias, it’s more like a game changer. Feeding a speaker 40 watts that sounds best with 150-200+ watts of power isn’t going to bring out the best in those speakers. Honestly, a low to mid range, low powered AVR isn’t going to make any speakers sound their best, even if it is from a reputable manufacturer like Denon. Nowadays, with all of the technology (along with the licensing fees for all of those logos), you can’t really expect to get great amplification from a $500 receiver, unless you’re buying from the used market that is. The BP30’s were Definitive Technology’s flagship speaker, they just require more than 50 watts to sound their best.

There are a couple of other reasons I didn’t recommend to buy new speakers. First, his budget is around $3k, and that needs to include a subwoofer (or 2). After having purchased a good sub (or 2), assuming he’s buying new, what is he going to get that will be a significant improvement upon what he already has? Keep in mind that the BP30’s are already $3000 speakers (adjusted for inflation), and from my experience (and opinion), they excel in a home theater setting. Sure, speakers are highly subjective to the listeners taste, but he never said he doesn’t like them. What he did indicate though is that he hates buying something and then returning it because he doesn’t like the way it sounds. Why not feed the speakers he currently has with the amount of power they sound the best with, and go from there? There’s another reason that I might advise against different speakers though, and that’s because the BP30’s are bipolar, and he’s probably used to getting that type of sound in his home theater. Monopoles are going to sound quite different, and they don’t really provide the same type of sound field that you get from bipolars. While I’m sure he could find speakers that sound good to him, he may find the experience a bit lacking in comparison to what he’s used to. When I switched to bipolar speakers in my HT setup, they provided a huge improvement, and it wasn’t just me that felt so, my wife commented on it before I had even said a word. I’ve run a ton of different speakers, including higher end offerings from Polk, NHT, Energy, Klipsch, Canton, Martin Logan, Bower & Wilkins, and Paradigm studio series, and the Def Tech bipolars simply sound better to us for home theater. They sound really good with music as well, but I do have a couple different 2 channel setups that sounds better, in my opinion anyway.

This is home audio though, and everyone has their own opinion on what works best and sounds best, and no opinion is wrong. Everyone’s rooms are different, and their ears and sound preferences are too. Home audio is a lot like food and beverages, we can all (usually) agree that some foods or beverages are “higher end” than others, but our preferences for flavor (or sound) profiles may not be in agreement. Are there better speakers out there, especially for 2 channel listening? Absolutely! I’m not saying that it’s impossible for him to find other speakers that will sound better to him, or that BP30’s are the “end all-be all”, what I am saying is that his current speakers are underpowered, and they will sound noticeably better if fed the proper amount of quality wattage.

If he had said he was unhappy with the sound of his current system, then I’d agree with you to change the speakers first. Changing speakers will absolutely have the biggest impact on changing a systems sound. You mentioned that a different amplifier would be a lateral move, yet the same could be said for speakers, and it may even be taking one step back if he ends up buying speakers that don’t sound as good to him in his room. In this situation though, his current receiver just doesn’t have enough power to make his current speakers sound their best, and they’re very good speakers if you provide them with enough power. He’s looking to upgrade, and new speakers may or may not be an upgrade to what he currently has, but providing his current speakers with 200-400 watts of quality amplification, as opposed to the small amount they’re getting now, will certainly be an upgrade. Once again, this is my opinion on what would be the best way to upgrade his current system. If he was running a Pioneer Elite SC-37 (or similar) receiver with ICEpower or D3 amplification and 135 watts per channel (5 channels driven), or a Denon AVR-4308 with 145 watts per channel (5 channels driven), I probably wouldn’t suggest adding an amplifier, and I’d probably agree with you and suggest that he try different speakers, or at the very least to make sure that he’s used the Audessey room correction, and tried some things with his room first, such as speaker position and room treatments.

Upgrading amplification is a lateral move if the current amplifier is working properly. It's a waste of money unless it's actually needed, which in most cases it's not. If looking for a meaningful difference or change its always in the speakers, the room or can sometimes be achieved with eq. $3k is a very healthy budget and can buy some very nice speakers.

 

[Snowpuppy]

Upgrading amplification is a lateral move if the current amplifier is working properly. It's a waste of money unless it's actually needed, which in most cases it's not. If looking for a meaningful difference or change its always in the speakers, the room or can sometimes be achieved with eq. $3k is a very healthy budget and can buy some very nice speakers.

So in other words you didn’t bother to read anything I wrote, or you’re just ignoring what I wrote. Saying that moving from a Denon AVR-1912 to a Sunfire Theater Grand 400 watt x 7 channel amplifier is a lateral move is like saying an moving from a Honda Accord to a Ferrari 812 Superfast would be a lateral move. It isn’t in either case.

First of all he has very nice speakers already that cost the equivalent of $3k in today’s dollar. He’s also using a $500 lower level Denon receiver for amplification, providing maybe 40-50 watts per channel tops, with no headroom. I’m recommending an amplifier upgrade that provides 400 watts per channel. The speakers he’s using crave power, the more they get, the better they sound. I would know, I have the same speakers. I don’t care if his amplifier is working properly or not, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t provide enough power to make his speakers sound the way they should. From your prospective, he could be powering his speakers with a boom box, and as long as the amplification is working properly, upgrading to an actual audiophile grade separate amplifier would be a “lateral move”. If that’s the case, then we should all just buy the lowest end, cheapest crap we can find. Hey everyone, let’s all get RCA home theater receivers from K-Mart, and power our speakers with them! As long as the amplifiers are working properly, it doesn’t matter!

Look, I agreed with you that swapping out different speakers would yield a larger change in the overall sound of the system, but buying new speakers doesn’t mean it would sound better, just that it would sound different. Different doesn’t mean better. He’s looking to UPGRADE his system, and increasing the power tenfold is certainly an upgrade, especially when the speakers he’s using don’t sound that great when under powered. He’s currently under powering them with that lower end Denon receiver.

I also pointed out that his current BP30’s are already $3000.00 speakers, and bipolar. If he’s used to bipolar speakers, monopoles may not sound as good to him. Even then, you’re comparing $3k speakers to $3k speakers, and they’ll be powered with a wimpy receiver. Upgrading the amplifier will absolutely have a bigger impact in the sound quality, in that it will sound better, and not worse. You cannot make the same claim when it comes to speakers. He already has $3000 speakers, so if he buys different $3000 speakers, they may not sound better to him. They may actually sound worse. He also doesn’t like returning products, so if he doesn’t like the speakers he buys, he’s going to feel guilty returning them, and will probably be stuck with them.

I’m guessing you haven’t played around much with amplification. Guess what? All amplifiers don’t sound the same. Having a separate, high end amplifier is a vast improvement over the amplification a low end or mid range receiver provides, and a high end amplifier will sound better than the built in amplification in a high end receiver. I’m not recommending he upgrade his speaker wires here lol, I’m offering sound advice, based on 30+ years of experience. Sure, if he had good, ample amplification to begin with, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, because there would be no need. He doesn’t.

I’m recommending more horsepower to his speakers, something they need. I would know, since I own them. Different speakers will sound different, sure, but his current receiver doesn’t produce enough power for the speakers he currently owns. Replacing $3k speakers with $3k speakers may or may not be an upgrade. He’s using a lower end AVR, that has weak amplification. Replacing the amplification from a $500 receiver with a $3000 amplifier will absolutely be an upgrade, no one can even question that. Sure, he could drop $3k on new speakers, but guess what? They’ll still be powered by a lower end receiver with weak power output. No speakers are going to sound their best when powered by a lower end AVR. You simply cannot power massive $3k tower speakers with a $500 home theater receiver and expect them to perform at their best.

 

[Pogre]

So in other words you didn’t bother to read anything I wrote, or you’re just ignoring what I wrote. Saying that moving from a Denon AVR-1912 to a Sunfire Theater Grand 400 watt x 7 channel amplifier is a lateral move is like saying an moving from a Honda Accord to a Ferrari 812 Superfast would be a lateral move. It isn’t in either case.

First of all he has very nice speakers already that cost the equivalent of $3k in today’s dollar. He’s also using a $500 lower level Denon receiver for amplification, providing maybe 40-50 watts per channel tops, with no headroom. I’m recommending an amplifier upgrade that provides 400 watts per channel. The speakers he’s using crave power, the more they get, the better they sound. I would know, I have the same speakers. I don’t care if his amplifier is working properly or not, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t provide enough power to make his speakers sound the way they should. From your prospective, he could be powering his speakers with a boom box, and as long as the amplification is working properly, upgrading to an actual audiophile grade separate amplifier would be a “lateral move”. If that’s the case, then we should all just buy the lowest end, cheapest crap we can find. Hey everyone, let’s all get RCA home theater receivers from K-Mart, and power our speakers with them! As long as the amplifiers are working properly, it doesn’t matter!

Look, I agreed with you that swapping out different speakers would yield a larger change in the overall sound of the system, but buying new speakers doesn’t mean it would sound better, just that it would sound different. Different doesn’t mean better. He’s looking to UPGRADE his system, and increasing the power tenfold is certainly an upgrade, especially when the speakers he’s using don’t sound that great when under powered. He’s currently under powering them with that lower end Denon receiver.

I also pointed out that his current BP30’s are already $3000.00 speakers, and bipolar. If he’s used to bipolar speakers, monopoles may not sound as good to him. Even then, you’re comparing $3k speakers to $3k speakers, and they’ll be powered with a wimpy receiver. Upgrading the amplifier will absolutely have a bigger impact in the sound quality, in that it will sound better, and not worse. You cannot make the same claim when it comes to speakers. He already has $3000 speakers, so if he buys different $3000 speakers, they may not sound better to him. They may actually sound worse. He also doesn’t like returning products, so if he doesn’t like the speakers he buys, he’s going to feel guilty returning them, and will probably be stuck with them.

I’m guessing you haven’t played around much with amplification. Guess what? All amplifiers don’t sound the same. Having a separate, high end amplifier is a vast improvement over the amplification a low end or mid range receiver provides, and a high end amplifier will sound better than the built in amplification in a high end receiver. I’m not recommending he upgrade his speaker wires here lol, I’m offering sound advice, based on 30+ years of experience. Sure, if he had good, ample amplification to begin with, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, because there would be no need. He doesn’t.

I’m recommending more horsepower to his speakers, something they need. I would know, since I own them. Different speakers will sound different, sure, but his current receiver doesn’t produce enough power for the speakers he currently owns. Replacing $3k speakers with $3k speakers may or may not be an upgrade. He’s using a lower end AVR, that has weak amplification. Replacing the amplification from a $500 receiver with a $3000 amplifier will absolutely be an upgrade, no one can even question that. Sure, he could drop $3k on new speakers, but guess what? They’ll still be powered by a lower end receiver with weak power output. No speakers are going to sound their best when powered by a lower end AVR. You simply cannot power massive $3k tower speakers with a $500 home theater receiver and expect them to perform at their best.

Unless the current amplification is underpowered then "upgrading" is simply a lateral move wrt sound quality. $3k is a very healthy budget for speakers tho, and speakers are where you're going to find significant changes. That kind of budget gets you into Salk Sound or BMR territory. I say get out and listen to some speakers within the budget and go that direction. Trying to tune your system through amplification is a waste of money.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just looked at the specs on the BP30: 1” tweeter x 1, 6.5” midrange x 1, 6.5” woofers x 3.

The bass/woofers require the most power. The 6.5” x 3 woofers is about equivalent to a single 11” woofer. It can handle some power (rated for up to 500W).

But there are other factors. The biggest factor is volume. If the volume isn’t very high from 10ft away, then they may not or probably don’t need more power.

 

[Pogre]

I just looked at the specs on the BP30: 1” tweeter x 1, 6.5” midrange x 1, 6.5” woofers x 3.

The bass/woofers require the most power. The 6.5” x 3 woofers is about equivalent to a single 11” woofer. It can handle some power (rated for up to 500W).

But there are other factors. The biggest factor is volume. If the volume isn’t very high from 10ft away, then they may not or probably don’t need more power.

What sensitivity do they have? Usually bipolar speakers have above average sensitivity specs, tho DefTech is pretty infamous for posting bloated specs. Still, I'll bet they're in the high 80s or low 90s, meaning they don't need a ton of power to get plenty loud.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

I just looked at the specs on the BP30: 1” tweeter x 1, 6.5” midrange x 1, 6.5” woofers x 3.

The bass/woofers require the most power. The 6.5” x 3 woofers is about equivalent to a single 11” woofer. It can handle some power (rated for up to 500W).

But there are other factors. The biggest factor is volume. If the volume isn’t very high from 10ft away, then they may not or probably don’t need more power.

Actually 4 woofers and 2 tweeters. Effective surface area approximate to a 13".

They are loud right out the box, and have great bass. Manufacturer specs are 91db, but I was never able to find a real review of them (audioreview is about as useful as VAERS).

I really enjoyed them when I had them. I just got to the point where I've accumulated too many speakers (AGAIN) and those were one of the two pairs I've sold so far.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

 

[snakeeyes]

I had the 10B model (2 less drivers). I would say more power than you might think. I believe it dips to 3ohm in the graph. I was fine on my RXV3300 running 2 pairs plus center and rear center (6.1) it was 130w/ch and 50lbs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually 4 woofers and 2 tweeters. Effective surface area approximate to a 13".

They are loud right out the box, and have great bass. Manufacturer specs are 91db, but I was never able to find a real review of them (audioreview is about as useful as VAERS).

I really enjoyed them when I had them. I just got to the point where I've accumulated too many speakers (AGAIN) and those were one of the two pairs I've sold so far.

But not all four 6.5” drivers are for the bass. They call them “bass-midrange”.

I assume one of the 6.5” drivers is for the midrange and 3 are for the bass.

Or are all 4 x 6.5” drivers really midrange-bass?

 

[snakeeyes]

But not all four 6.5” drivers are for the bass. They call them “bass-midrange”.

I assume one of the 6.5” drivers is for the midrange and 3 are for the bass.

Or are all 4 x 6.5” drivers really midrange-bass?

The real question is why this years old thread is still going. LOL

You are just 40 posts away from 30,000. Nice!

 

[Kvn_Walker]

But not all four 6.5” drivers are for the bass. They call them “bass-midrange”.

I assume one of the 6.5” drivers is for the midrange and 3 are for the bass.

Or are all 4 x 6.5” drivers really midrange-bass?

Wired in parallel. It's a 2-way, not 2.5.

 

[Snowpuppy]

Unless the current amplification is underpowered then "upgrading" is simply a lateral move wrt sound quality. $3k is a very healthy budget for speakers tho, and speakers are where you're going to find significant changes. That kind of budget gets you into Salk Sound or BMR territory. I say get out and listen to some speakers within the budget and go that direction. Trying to tune your system through amplification is a waste of money.

Once again you’ve ignored what I’ve said. YES, his amplification is underpowered. You would have realized that in my first post, if you bothered to take the time to read it, but you just keep droning on and on about how amplification makes no difference, and how different speakers are the key to the universe.

I own these speakers, you don’t. I know what they sound like when underpowered, and what they sound like when given a healthy amount of juice. It’s literally night and day. I can’t believe that you’re actually going to come on to an audio forum, and claim that amplification makes no difference, and that a $500 home theater receiver pushing 40-50 watts per channel could possibly drive 4 foot tall (sealed) tower speakers with 6 drivers a piece as well as a dedicated amplifier that yields 400 watts a channel. Are you new to the world of audio, or are you being obtuse just to annoy everyone?

My entire point is that A) his speakers are already more than adequate, some would even call them magical when it comes to home theater, B) they would sound 10x better if given the proper amount of power, and not weak amplification from a low end AVR, and C) even if he bought your Salk or BMR speakers, he’d still be powering them with a low end $500 home theater receiver, which is designed for entry level components, and it’s not much better than what comes with a home theater in a box. Sure, it’s fine for powering small speakers in an apartment, but if you’re looking to get the most out of what you have, you should look for the weakest link. It certainly isn’t the speakers he’s running, I can attest to that. It’s his AVR-1912 thats the weak link in his system. The 1900 series of AVR was formerly known as the 1700 series prior to the /10 iteration of Denon receivers. They intentionally knocked everything down a notch (or gave every receiver an upgrade in badge status, depending on how you want to look at it). In other words, the successor to the AVR-3808 became the AVR-4310, without having the kind of power the AVR-4308 had. The same is true throughout the entire line. The AVR-4308 became the AVR-4810 and so on. It was nothing more than a way for Denon to make more money. His AVR-1912 is really only an AVR-17xx when it comes to performance, and that’s the problem, the 17xx line is near the bottom of the line when it comes to Denon home theater receivers.

Would you really pair $3000.00 speakers with a low end $500 AVR? Tell the truth. If you would, then no one would ever take your advice again, because that’s ridiculous. If you wouldn’t, then your whole argument is invalidated. Either way you don’t sound like you know what you’re talking about.

You’re also forgetting that the OP wanted to upgrade his system, not change his sound. You don’t seem to know how to upgrade a system without changing the sound by changing the speakers though. You have a one track mind, and you even called using different amplifiers “a placebo or bias”. You literally said that all amplification sounds the same. You’re wrong.

 

[Snowpuppy]

Actually 4 woofers and 2 tweeters. Effective surface area approximate to a 13".

They are loud right out the box, and have great bass. Manufacturer specs are 91db, but I was never able to find a real review of them (audioreview is about as useful as VAERS).

I really enjoyed them when I had them. I just got to the point where I've accumulated too many speakers (AGAIN) and those were one of the two pairs I've sold so far.

Perfect comment regarding VAERS!

 

[Pogre]

Once again you’ve ignored what I’ve said. YES, his amplification is underpowered. You would have realized that in my first post, if you bothered to take the time to read it, but you just keep droning on and on about how amplification makes no difference, and how different speakers are the key to the universe.

I own these speakers, you don’t. I know what they sound like when underpowered, and what they sound like when given a healthy amount of juice. It’s literally night and day. I can’t believe that you’re actually going to come on to an audio forum, and claim that amplification makes no difference, and that a $500 home theater receiver pushing 40-50 watts per channel could possibly drive 4 foot tall (sealed) tower speakers with 6 drivers a piece as well as a dedicated amplifier that yields 400 watts a channel. Are you new to the world of audio, or are you being obtuse just to annoy everyone?

My entire point is that A) his speakers are already more than adequate, some would even call them magical when it comes to home theater, B) they would sound 10x better if given the proper amount of power, and not weak amplification from a low end AVR, and C) even if he bought your Salk or BMR speakers, he’d still be powering them with a low end $500 home theater receiver, which is designed for entry level components, and it’s not much better than what comes with a home theater in a box. Sure, it’s fine for powering small speakers in an apartment, but if you’re looking to get the most out of what you have, you should look for the weakest link. It certainly isn’t the speakers he’s running, I can attest to that. It’s his AVR-1912 thats the weak link in his system. The 1900 series of AVR was formerly known as the 1700 series prior to the /10 iteration of Denon receivers. They intentionally knocked everything down a notch (or gave every receiver an upgrade in badge status, depending on how you want to look at it). In other words, the successor to the AVR-3808 became the AVR-4310, without having the kind of power the AVR-4308 had. The same is true throughout the entire line. The AVR-4308 became the AVR-4810 and so on. It was nothing more than a way for Denon to make more money. His AVR-1912 is really only an AVR-17xx when it comes to performance, and that’s the problem, the 17xx line is near the bottom of the line when it comes to Denon home theater receivers.

Would you really pair $3000.00 speakers with a low end $500 AVR? Tell the truth. If you would, then no one would ever take your advice again, because that’s ridiculous. If you wouldn’t, then your whole argument is invalidated. Either way you don’t sound like you know what you’re talking about.

You’re also forgetting that the OP wanted to upgrade his system, not change his sound. You don’t seem to know how to upgrade a system without changing the sound by changing the speakers though. You have a one track mind, and you even called using different amplifiers “a placebo or bias”. You literally said that all amplification sounds the same. You’re wrong.

I agree, he should start looking at speakers.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

But not all four 6.5” drivers are for the bass. They call them “bass-midrange”.

I assume one of the 6.5” drivers is for the midrange and 3 are for the bass.

Or are all 4 x 6.5” drivers really midrange-bass?

I should clarify, it's a series/parallel configuration to meet the impedance requirements with 4 woofers. But as memory serves only a single pair of wires coming up from the crossover.