My First Home Theatre - Seeking assistance with which AVR

[Pogre]

Group delay has never been a major factor in the low frequency performance of loudspeakers.

I always though the consensus was that below 1.5 cycles for a subwoofer is inaudible but above that you run into issues? You know a lot more than I do about it, but I've seen Shady state several times a good sub should be below 1.5 cycles, so I always just assumed he meant above that would be audible. I know he always includes that metric in his review measurements.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I always though the consensus was that below 1.5 cycles for a subwoofer is inaudible but above that you run into issues? You know a lot more than I do about it, but I've seen Shady state several times a good sub should be below 1.5 cycles, so I always just assumed he meant above that would be audible. I know he always includes that metric in his review measurements.

And also, most of the group delay graphs I’ve seen in recent years of quality subs, had the group delay well into frequencies that almost no music would approach. And if the music did even go low enough, it’s very very difficult to tell in those deep frequencies.

 

[Pogre]

And also, most of the group delay graphs I’ve seen in recent years of quality subs, had the group delay well into frequencies that almost no music would approach. And if the music did even go low enough, it’s very very difficult to tell in those deep frequencies.

That's what I was saying earlier too, but in all honesty I can't say I've ever "heard" group delay so it's not something I've experienced.

You're right tho, I can't recall the last time I saw any sub exceed 1.5 cycles above 20 hz, ported or sealed.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That's what I was saying earlier too, but in all honesty I can't say I've ever "heard" group delay so it's not something I've experienced.

You're right tho, I can't recall the last time I saw any sub exceed 1.5 cycles above 20 hz, ported or sealed.

For sure. Trying to slay that sealed for music dragon is taking some time. But maybe if we keep at it homes.

 

[Squigz]

Not much really. Like I said earlier if you can get a better deal for the 6015 that'd be my choice. They're both going to sound the same. Despite the assertions of some receiver brands don't have different sound signatures. The differences are all in the power ratings and feature set. Otherwise they'll all sound far more alike than different.

The 4700 is getting into the big boys, but 6015 is right there too and pretty much equal.

Heya, while I wait for a response to my email (won't be for another 5 hours at least, so don't hold your breath:
Since the Surround AI feature in Yamaha's IS something I am genuinely curious about, if I CAN get my hands on an A3080 for the same price that I can the Marantz, should I?
I know getting an A6A is out of the question currently, even if it were discounted to within the same(ish) budget.

Again it's what the internet says, but consensus seems to be YPAO isn't as good most of the time. I also read somewhere that it has more fine-tuning available, did earlier models of Denons not allow you to adjust per channel (pretty sure you can now).

I do NOT know what I'm doing when it comes to room setup and calibration (OK, I get some of the theory, but have never done it before).
I am happy to learn and experiment, which I will be doing regardless. If it's not THAT hard to get YPAO plus manual to the same point Aud plus manual can, what other differences / advantages / disadvantages may I have in one over the other?

 

[Verdinut]

I always though the consensus was that below 1.5 cycles for a subwoofer is inaudible but above that you run into issues? You know a lot more than I do about it, but I've seen Shady state several times a good sub should be below 1.5 cycles, so I always just assumed he meant above that would be audible. I know he always includes that metric in his review measurements.

The group delay is in time domain, and is within the 2 millisecond detection treshold for a loudspeaker, as per tests which were done by experts.

 

[lovinthehd]

Heya, while I wait for a response to my email (won't be for another 5 hours at least, so don't hold your breath:
Since the Surround AI feature in Yamaha's IS something I am genuinely curious about, if I CAN get my hands on an A3080 for the same price that I can the Marantz, should I?
I know getting an A6A is out of the question currently, even if it were discounted to within the same(ish) budget.

Again it's what the internet says, but consensus seems to be YPAO isn't as good most of the time. I also read somewhere that it has more fine-tuning available, did earlier models of Denons not allow you to adjust per channel (pretty sure you can now).

I do NOT know what I'm doing when it comes to room setup and calibration (OK, I get some of the theory, but have never done it before).
I am happy to learn and experiment, which I will be doing regardless. If it's not THAT hard to get YPAO plus manual to the same point Aud plus manual can, what other differences / advantages / disadvantages may I have in one over the other?

No experience with Surround AI feature, have read a couple nice things about it, don't know if it's really any different from a Dolby Surround or DTS upmixer, tho (at least that's what I think it is closest to). I look at YPAO as not being quite as good with subs as Audyssey, but you can use the Yamaha's PEQ on top of YPAO, whereas with Audyssey if you want to use the graphic eq that D&M avrs come with, you'll have to turn Audyssey off (and I've done that, much prefer Audyssey). I definitely think an A3080 is still a very nice avr, I just don't want to speak "Yamaha" as Bill mentioned earlier

 

[Squigz]

No experience with Surround AI feature, have read a couple nice things about it, don't know if it's really any different from a Dolby Surround or DTS upmixer, tho (at least that's what I think it is closest to). I look at YPAO as not being quite as good with subs as Audyssey, but you can use the Yamaha's PEQ on top of YPAO, whereas with Audyssey if you want to use the graphic eq that D&M avrs come with, you'll have to turn Audyssey off (and I've done that, much prefer Audyssey). I definitely think an A3080 is still a very nice avr, I just don't want to speak "Yamaha" as Bill mentioned earlier

Ohh. So with YPAO, you can run it, tweak it in manaul, and also use their EQ,
But with Audyssey, you run it, can still tweak it in manual to the same degree? But can't use the EQ at the same time?
I thought the manual settings available in Audyssey would allow you to have a full EQ per channel?

 

[Pogre]

Ohh. So with YPAO, you can run it, tweak it in manaul, and also use their EQ,
But with Audyssey, you run it, can still tweak it in manual to the same degree? But can't use the EQ at the same time?
I thought the manual settings available in Audyssey would allow you to have a full EQ per channel?

The Audyssey editor app gives you full control over your frequency response curve. You run setup using the app then you can view your room curve, make changes to it and change basic settings.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ohh. So with YPAO, you can run it, tweak it in manaul, and also use their EQ,
But with Audyssey, you run it, can still tweak it in manual to the same degree? But can't use the EQ at the same time?
I thought the manual settings available in Audyssey would allow you to have a full EQ per channel?

You can use the Yamaha's peq on top of ypao, but can't use D&M' graphic eq on top of audyssey (but can use the Audyssey editor app to tweak as Pogre points out, and even another app called ratbuddysey). By manual settings being basic choices for bass management, levels and delay after running ypao/audyssey they're fairly equivalent I'd think...

 

[Squigz]

You can use the Yamaha's peq on top of ypao, but can't use D&M' graphic eq on top of audyssey (but can use the Audyssey editor app to tweak as Pogre points out, and even another app called ratbuddysey). By manual settings being basic choices for bass management, levels and delay after running ypao/audyssey they're fairly equivalent I'd think...

I'd LIKE to be able to tweak and play, though I don't know how much I will. I'd hope that the default auto settings of either should do an OK job in my room considering it is a simple rectangle with nothing extraordinary to note.
I heard you can change Yamaha EQ on the fly with the app in the middle of listening, and change it per channel where as all you get to do is set your own target curve on Audyssey. I'll be going into the store tomorrow when I (finally) get back home after working away, and I'll have a chat and see if they can show me around the different software, in case that sways me in either direction.

Though that said, speaking of swaying due to Room Cal:
There's an Anthem MRX 720 for $3000AUD at one of the other stores. Pretty good! 11 channels of processing. Only 7 amp though. I think I will discuss this with them too (same store, different outlet, see if he can chat with them over price). If the market is heavily straying towards either stereo music listening, or surround 8K/VRR gaming, Anthems like the 720 might be harder to sell given the lack of video capabilities (but perfect for me right now!). That would mean getting a 5 ch power amp or 2 2ch power amps, probably for my overheads. I can't find any of the cheap ones on websites for stores in Perth but I'll ask. I don't mind getting something that'll do just fine online.

There is something to be said about leaving myself room to upgrade later though! If I get an Anthem and full 7.1.4 surround sound right away, I'm setting the bar pretty high hahaha. Maybe pick up a 2nd sub later, and then what?

 

[Pogre]

You can copy Audyssey "Flat" to manual eq and adjust on the fly just like Yamaha. The editor app is if you really wanna get serious about it and make precise adjustments, ideally based on measurements taken with a calibrated mic. My bass right now is +/- 2 dB from 115 hz all the way down to 16 hz using the app.

This is what it started with.

It's an older sweep, but still accurate for my room.

 

[Squigz]

You can copy Audyssey "Flat" to manual eq and adjust on the fly just like Yamaha. The editor app is if you really wanna get serious about it and make precise adjustments, ideally based on measurements taken with a calibrated mic. My bass right now is +/- 2 dB from 115 hz all the way down to 16 hz using the app.

View attachment 52053

This is what it started with.

View attachment 52054

It's an older sweep, but still accurate for my room.

Awesome!

I... Don't know how nor have the equipment to do any other tests myself afterwards, though I can interpret the curves you've posted so that's a start.
Super good to know that it can be tweaked further if I do get a reference mic and want to play my own tones and see how it's actually performing (can I do this with the mic it comes with and Audyssey? Get the "before" and "after" curves?

I'm getting more and more excited. Earlier I caught myself day-dreaming about experimenting with crossover frequencies instead of working!

 

[Pogre]

Awesome!

I... Don't know how nor have the equipment to do any other tests myself afterwards, though I can interpret the curves you've posted so that's a start.
Super good to know that it can be tweaked further if I do get a reference mic and want to play my own tones and see how it's actually performing (can I do this with the mic it comes with and Audyssey? Get the "before" and "after" curves?

I'm getting more and more excited. Earlier I caught myself day-dreaming about experimenting with crossover frequencies instead of working!

As far as just running setup and not touching anything goes (except crossovers and large to small speaker setting- something you'd want to check for any brand) I think Audyssey does a great job in my room.

Look at that "before" chart and compare to this.

That's where Audyssey got me all by itself without any tweaking. It's not perfect, but that's pretty durned good for what I had to start with. It sure made the tweaking easier to do.

 

[Squigz]

As far as just running setup and not touching anything goes (except crossovers and large to small speaker setting- something you'd want to check for any brand) I think Audyssey does a great job in my room.

Look at that "before" chart and compare to this.

View attachment 52056

That's where Audyssey got me all by itself without any tweaking. It's not perfect, but that's pretty durned good for what I had to start with. It sure made the tweaking easier to do.

At a glance, that looks almost identical to your finished product one above, except for the low end.
I'm intending to tweak the EQ on my sub (it's got the app for it) first, then run Audyssey. Then listen and go from there.
I don't have a mic or software to do that yet though. I'll figure it out later when I go into the shop

 

[lovinthehd]

The Audyssey mic isn't really good for measurements as you can't use the calibration file baked into Audyssey itself. It may get you close, but a dedicated measurement mic is a better long term tool in any case.

The thing with D&M's graphic eq is you can start with a basic curve by copying it over from Audyssey to the graphic eq, but using it from there on loses the benefit of all the Audyssey filters and you have a limited graphic eq to tweak with. I'd rather use Audyssey XT32 with an app generally in any case. I'd still lean toward D&M largely as I don't want to relearn and speak Yamaha (altho to be fair Denon's older manuals were so difficult that a guy made a website to translate Denon to English....search batpig and Denon if you're curious ).

You might be interested in this review of Audyssey as well as some threads here on AH or avsforum.com....

 

[Squigz]

Terribly sorry to dig up this (not that) old thread but!
I -FINALLY- have my hands on the SVS PB-1000 Pro. I've been using the REL1205 in the mean time.

I've got the opportunity with a 10m cable to move each around the room and set them both up, and see which one I want to keep and which one I want to return (or, keep both... but then, do I want 2 completely different subs?).


What I've done so far:
Placed the REL in the only place it would fit with my old 2m cable, and ran auto room setup.
Played with other speaker placement until I was really happy with the response.
Measured everything with REW, moved things a bit, and confirmed that where I had chosen for speakers seemed to be the best I could achieve (for now, I will forever be tinkering).
Listened to a few things, and was impressed, though not blown away (I didn't expect to be astounded, all is well. Money well spent still ).

I've then removed the REL, put the SVS in the same spot,
used a sound pressure meter on my phone (trashy but wanted close enough) to get the SVS to the same level as the REL was,
put in the plugs and set it to sealed mode in the app,
and did -no further changes or setup-

First thoughts were: SVS is seriously underwhelming. Not punchy, scenes in movies and music were lacking something major. 1 of the 3 of us testing it fell asleep in the 15 mins we had it hooked up and were going through different things to compare them side by side.

I then removed the plugs, changed it to ported mode in the app,
and everything sounded MUCH better.

Could not tell any difference between them yet, except that the SVS rumbles 'differently' in the opening to edge of tomorrow. Not identifiably better or worse, just that the room shook differently.
Scenes we've tried (all on Netflix, Stan, or Disney Plus where we can more easily avoid horrible compression):

• Guardians of the Galaxy Opening and ship take-off
• Ready Player One first race (we really liked this, both subs felt like they added a lot to this scene immersion wise)
• Edge of Tomorrow opening scene (room shaking) [youtube only, so grain of salt. Quality unknown]
• Matrix lobby scene (both subs seemed underwhelming here, in my personal opinion)
• Hamilton opening scene (there's one part where I believe it sounds a bit muddy on the SVS where there is an oscillating bass note playing, am about to go back and test it on the REL to see if it's any better)
• The Greatest Showman opening scene

Again, only in ported mode does the SVS seem to make anything stand out (in sealed, the feet stomping in greatest showman's intro sounds more like hand clapping), and even in ported mode, I cannot (unless I actively try, which noone will be) locate it in my room, it blends in, and you can tell when the room is shaking or when there's a nice low note, but you can't pinpoint when the sub cuts in and out or transitions (short of times where you WANT it to stand out like explosions etc.). There's been plenty of times I've had to go over to either sub to check that they're actually active during a scene because I couldn't tell if it was them or just my main speakers.

1. Any advice on how to choose between these two subs or whether keeping both is a good choice? I have not tried hooking both up yet.
2. Any help with music or scenes to try to identify specific strengths and weaknesses of each of these, to see if I can tell and if it matters to me?
3. Should I set up SVS with the marantz auto calibration? Can I save the calibration for the REL and then swap between the two easily? Or is swapping between the two as is enough to pick differences between / spot weaknesses and strengths and make a difference (I am hoping this is enough, and then once I choose, I will go on to making said choice sound its best).

Tagging @Pogre and @lovinthehd as the two who have had the most input on this so far


I'll post what I've ended up getting and what I've got set up so far a bit later Sorry I have been MIA, life has been very very busy.


Cheers

-Squigz

 

[lovinthehd]

Running the SVS with the eq for the Rel wouldn't be a good way to go. Rerun Audyssey for the SVS, and leave it in the mode you run it at (and I'd say ported is the better mode, why get a ported sub and run it in a sealed mode?). Some of the Denon/Marantz units you can save different Audyssey profiles but not always easily switched, believe if you're using the Audyssey Editor App that's the fastest way to switch between profiles.

 

[Squigz]

Last night (for me) I came to that conclusion when running REW - that using the Aud cal for the REL wasn't working great for the SVS.

Thankfully, my receiver has 2 profiles, so I have made one for the SVS, one for the REL.
(side note, the +/- db for each speaker settings are different for each... I've tweaked both of them to make all speakers even according to REW, but they're still different... so I assume that the Aud settings in the background somehow make a difference there? It was unexpected for me) [actually, on this side note, is what I've done what others do too, or is it best to trust Aud because things likely sound better even without all speakers reaching the same SP at the MLP?].

I'm now leaning towards the SVS.
The reasoning is 2 fold:

1. The app allows me to set various profiles and perform very basic parametric EQ, which has allowed me to significantly reduce the largest null in key listening positions (though may not be needed as much once I find a better spot for the sub, having this functionality is nice).
2. The SVS has a significantly flatter response. The REL seems purposefully boosted in the lows (is somewhat flat, and then around 30Hz it jumps up suddenly and stays high until it falls off from the capability of the sub).
   1. This makes the REL have more punch in these low lows when Dynamic Eq is off (so more punches in explosions or heavy things hitting other heavy things), but that only works well for action movies specifically, and in others it isn't so great.
   2. Turning Dynamic Eq ON for the REL makes the low lows VERY loud, to the point that if you don't want your ears to hurt, you need to lower the volume of the movie at least slightly (I have sensitive ears so, maybe in a minority here). Compared to the SVS, the 'slope' of the response (Dyn Eq makes lows louder and highs quieter yeah?) is roughly double in the REL...
      1. Regardless of whether you have the volume turned down or not, in scenes where there's a mixture of low notes happening (Ready Player One first race scene highlights it we found), impacts are certainly highlighted, but rumbles are so obviously diluted by comparison that it just feels off. There might be something I could do to tweak Aud to resolve this, but I don't know how.
   3. With Dynamic Eq ON for the SVS, things sound fine in movies, and it can be turned off for more subtle bass if desired.

I have still noticed that specifically with the opening number in Hamilton, when they're all in a line and Hamilton is walking past to go up the stairs on the right (where the bass in the background gets lower), that with Dyn Eq ON for the SVS (or at higher volumes) the bass sounds muddy, there's some notes that should be start-stop-start-stop, and they get muddled together somewhat on the SVS, where as they don't on the REL.
I will be re-watching this scene many times with the SVS in sealed mode and with Dyn Eq on and off, at various volumes, and we'll see if it copes better (if that's the case, that's fine, I can have Profile 1 be for ported, Profile 2 be for sealed, and switch to sealed if we're watching a musical number or something that might require a faster response.
Is it possible that the 'sealed subs for music' dragon holds true somewhat, or is it that the REL has significantly more power than the SVS, so it has the power to control that cone more tightly than the SVS does?

This is all quite interesting, I'm enjoying tinkering and learning. Though I think my partner is running out of patience

-Squigz

 

[avg_audio_guy]

I own a Yamaha RX-V479 and a Marantz SR7011. These receivers are in two different price classes with the Marantz costing much more than the Yamaha. As you might expect the Marantz sounds better and it has some nice features that the Yamaha doesn't have (not to say the pricier Yamaha's wouldn't compete), but I will say that the Marantz firmware has been buggy for me. It sometimes drops the HDMI video (not 100% this isn't a TV problem, but I'm reasonably sure it's the Marantz) and half the time when I switch to the blue ray player I have to power cycle the Marantz for the sound to pass through. Plus Heos is a pain, and my Heos login is lost every time the Marantz loses power. And while I still really like the Marantz, I think I will be moving off of it in a year or so. The Yamaha firmware is much more stable but the GUI while functional feels old (but so what?). I do like the Audyssey support in the Marantz though.