My First Home Theatre - Seeking assistance with which AVR

[ryanosaur]

It's everywhere on the internet!

And you believe everything you read on the internet?

 

[Verdinut]

I'll have to send them an email (I sleep before they start work) and ask.
If they do, what would I be gaining from spending $500 more on a X4700H vs the SR6015?
I hear they're warmer so better for movies and long watching as I've said I will be doing. Or with room correction is this negligible?

Again, also keeping in mind that I have no interest in HDMI2.1 or 8K and if I did I would be using eArc from my TV anyway. I know everyone wants to say "but it's an important feature, make sure you get something that's doing it right" but I honestly couldn't care less. If I could get a couple hundred off a model that had the parts responsible for that completely broken, I'd jump on it without second thought.

I'll shoot off an email, along with asking about alternative subs, and we'll see


That said, do you know if I will be able to use the wireless speakers (Denon Home Series) as additional surrounds? The deal with free Denon Home speakers is happening in Aus too, and I might be able to score 1 or 2 of those rather than getting the price knocked down - which would end up cheaper than getting an power amp + rear speakers or powered rears (unless there's $300USD a pair powered speakers that will be all round better).

The X4700H is not any warmer than the SR6015. Well designed electronics sound the same when operated within their limits. Some people prefer one brand over another and with a double blind testing, they wouldn't be able to tell a difference.

The SR 6015 would be a good option as well. Your decision should depend on what features you are looking for within a projected budget.

As for the Denon wireless speakers, I am not familiar with them. Another member should be in a position to answer you, but I simply doubt that they would perform as well as a wired product.

 

[Squigz]

Oh, as to video capabilities of an avr...mostly avrs are used to just pass thru video signals, processing of video in an avr is more for older/legacy tech.
AVRs IMO do make better switching centers and offer more audio capabilities than most tvs, too and come with no annoyances brought on by using HDMI-CEC featurtes like ARC (altho eARC supposedly has less issues). Streaming from a tv itself is also limited over time, generally better to move that to an external box/service.

I haven't encountered any issues with eArc yet, though my journey is young! I may bend and end up following suit, haha.
With an external streaming unit, is it still possible to say to your home automation / google / alexa / whatever "play Avengers End Game on Netflix in the Theatre" and everything will figure itself out, rather than the TV immediately noticing it's the video destination, it itself has netflix, so it'll play it locally?
I've had this kind of behaviour before, even if signed out of those services on the TV. It's why it's just so so much easier for me to connect everything to the TV and let it control it, because it seems to want to anyway.

 

[Squigz]

And you believe everything you read on the internet?

Gotta believe something, and if everyone says it, it's at least for a reason.
That reason doesn't mean it's true, but I would like to know said reason

Currently, I've been presented with a singular and loud sounding argument with no rebuttal I could find.

 

[Pogre]

If they do, what would I be gaining from spending $500 more on a X4700H vs the SR6015?

Not much really. Like I said earlier if you can get a better deal for the 6015 that'd be my choice. They're both going to sound the same. Despite the assertions of some receiver brands don't have different sound signatures. The differences are all in the power ratings and feature set. Otherwise they'll all sound far more alike than different.

The 4700 is getting into the big boys, but 6015 is right there too and pretty much equal.

 

[Squigz]

The X4700H is not any warmer than the SR6015. Well designed electronics sound the same when operated within their limits. Some people prefer one brand over another and with a double blind testing, they wouldn't be able to tell a difference.

The SR 6015 would be a good option as well. Your decision should depend on what features you are looking for within a projected budget.

As for the Denon wireless speakers, I am not familiar with them. Another member should be in a position to answer you, but I simply doubt that they would perform as well as a wired product.

Awesome, thanks

That said then, why would you personally pick the Denon over the cheaper Marantz?
Looking at the features, they're very similar. It seems the Denon is a little higher powered (I don't think it'll be a deciding factor for me but more headroom never hurt), and is Auro capable (again, might never come into it but can't hurt).

I'll be sure to let you know if they have one and what price they can do.

Though, if the wireless speakers end up being a possibility, the Marantz has the deal with a Denon 250. I doubt it'll hold it's ground against a wired speaker either, but at $500USD retail price, picking up 1 (or 2 of the 150s? if they are willing) for free might be significantly cheaper in getting rear speakers up and running. I have cabling or rears so will want to get wired later on, but will always be able to use wireless speakers elsewhere in the house so, could work out long term too

 

[Pogre]

Ahh, thanks for that. Can you tell I've only stared reading and thinking about any of this a week ago? hahaha. Happy to be corrected. Keep it coming

You sir, are my favorite new guy this month!

Seriously, it's refreshing when someone is willing to be open minded and examine the evidence. There's a lot of tomfoolery and unfounded claims out there with this hobby as HD mentioned above. Receivers aren't warm or analytical or chocolatey. They should all be more or less equally accurate and transparent. At least as far as anything audible.

 

[Verdinut]

Awesome, thanks

That said then, why would you personally pick the Denon over the cheaper Marantz?
Looking at the features, they're very similar. It seems the Denon is a little higher powered (I don't think it'll be a deciding factor for me but more headroom never hurt), and is Auro capable (again, might never come into it but can't hurt).

I'll be sure to let you know if they have one and what price they can do.

Though, if the wireless speakers end up being a possibility, the Marantz has the deal with a Denon 250. I doubt it'll hold it's ground against a wired speaker either, but at $500USD retail price, picking up 1 (or 2 of the 150s? if they are willing) for free might be significantly cheaper in getting rear speakers up and running. I have cabling or rears so will want to get wired later on, but will always be able to use wireless speakers elsewhere in the house so, could work out long term too

I suggested the Denon because you had been looking for the X3700H. Denon and Marantz are cousin companies and I used to own Marantz AVRs. I recently purchased a Denon AVR-X3700H mainly for its preamp mode feature and the Audyssey XT32 room EQ possibility.

 

[Pogre]

I suggested the Denon because you had been looking for the X3700H. Denon and Marantz are cousin companies and I used to own Marantz AVRs. I recently purchased a Denon AVR-X3700H mainly for its preamp mode feature and the Audyssey XT32 room EQ possibility.

For $500 less than the 4700 I think the 6015 is a no brainer. They're practically the same.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ahh, thanks for that. Can you tell I've only stared reading and thinking about any of this a week ago? hahaha. Happy to be corrected. Keep it coming
The only thought that went in prior is running my own calcs to determine room dimensions to minimise standing waves at expected angles... Only to find out that all that's been done before and I could have borrowed someone else's hard work to get my numbers. It was a fun exercise anyway!

So, where's all this I hear about "Denon and Maratz are practically the same except Denon is better for movies because it's warmer / more bass heavy, and Maratz is better for music". It's everywhere on the internet!


Yeah, a quick search on them revealed LOTS of advertising without actual numbers listed in specs, and then forums saying they're all talk and no show compared to a lot of the competition, especially in the last few years.
The 1205 seems to still be quite popular though.
I only need "just fine" for music. I don't listen to Jazz. Maybe I'll start? but then as my preferences evolve, so will my setup. Gotta start with where I'm at now!

Are you able to give me at least your understanding of ported vs not ported subs? Again, only a week's worth of knowledge, and I'm sitting here going "OK, seems all good speakers that aren't crappy PC quality are ported. That makes sense, air needs to move. Blocking air from moving means drivers can't actuate, so it stifles sound. Certain frequencies Might make it out like higher ones because they are fast moving, and quickly put back in neutral 'undriven' position by air pressure inside. Lower frequencies have a harder time moving the driver enough because less speed = less inertia so they struggle fighting the air pressure".
That's what my engineer brain that has to come up for a reason for everything I see - came up with. And it makes sense to me.
Backed up by all the PC speaker surround kits I've seen and soundbar+sub combos having ported subs, they need it.
And now, unported subs (specifically for low frequencies)? Wha? I didn't even NOTICE it wasn't ported until pointed out here, I didn't consider a sub could function if airflow wasn't allowed.

Like Ryan said, you believe everything you read on the interwebs ? One of the worst things about audio in general are the subjective reviews, particularly of electronics...I ignore most of them myself....they aren't even generally consistent. Most of the people offering such comparative opinions haven't even done a proper comparison test (which is rather difficult to execute with electronics like an avr, too). I differentiate avrs mostly on their feature/connectivity and somewhat the amp section (and do prefer avrs that have a complete set of pre-outs for amp options).

The old bit about Marantz and Denon I've seen before....and that has more to do with old 2ch stuff from Marantz, from several corporate owners before now, than their current offerings....and as a reputation for the entire brand, its just kinda silly. These days Denon & Marantz have had the same ownership for a while, many of their models sharing a lot of the internals, particularly the dsp such as Audyssey. Marantz in testing at ASR (audiosciencereview.com) has come out a bit poorer distortion spec-wise and this seems more due to their HDAM feature they market heavily. I've not had a Marantz receiver since the 70s/early 80s (a 2270), do have two Denon avrs currently (3808 and a 4520). I'd just pick the one priced better for the feature/connectivity set in any case, altho Marantz tends to be priced/marketed a bit differently here in the US so Denon usually has the better value here IMO.

Not sure what you meant about music/jazz for the subs....often when people talk about subs "for music" they are talking about subs that have limited low-frequency capabilities (i.e. extension), as much music doesn't have much content below 30-40 hz, whereas movies and effects generally regularly have 20hz and below content. A ported sub is more efficient in the lower frequencies, and a well designed ported sub works quite well for anything. A ported sub gets knocked for slightly higher group delay in some cases, but again a well designed sub this isn't a particular issue. A ported sub by definition will need a larger box than a sealed one using the same driver, and even many of the ported subs offered don't use as large a box as they could....shipping is expensive! Many people prefer smaller boxes in their rooms, too, often a driving factor....but sealed can still compete, if large enough and particularly with multiples. Personally I have built my own subs for the last several, and did use sealed boxes as they were simpler to build...I'm a novice wood worker and learning. I use quantity of subs to help out with more amps and dsp to help make up for their inefficiency....but with 3 18" (I built) and a dual 15" (Epik Empire) the performance is still quite good. The next time around will be a ported model most likely, if I don't just buy a GSG flat-pack....


ps You might like articles like this https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/sealed-vs-ported-subwoofers or https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/sealed-vs-ported, among other articles on speakers/subs (plus the detailed reviews done here).

 

[lovinthehd]

I haven't encountered any issues with eArc yet, though my journey is young! I may bend and end up following suit, haha.
With an external streaming unit, is it still possible to say to your home automation / google / alexa / whatever "play Avengers End Game on Netflix in the Theatre" and everything will figure itself out, rather than the TV immediately noticing it's the video destination, it itself has netflix, so it'll play it locally?
I've had this kind of behaviour before, even if signed out of those services on the TV. It's why it's just so so much easier for me to connect everything to the TV and let it control it, because it seems to want to anyway.

I have a bad taste in my mouth from ARC, does it show? I also use my avr to source music (actually that's my primary driving factor in my setups is the music, altho the bonus of movies has worked out well over the years), including an ancient turntable , something the tv would be lousy at handling.

As for talking to devices, I have no idea, have no desire to do that. My Amazon firesticks popup a message frequently trying to entice me over to the dark side by saying my remote hasn't been fully set up since I haven't used Alexa.....I type out texts and emails, too. I'm old.

 

[Squigz]

You sir, are my favorite new guy this month!

Seriously, it's refreshing when someone is willing to be open minded and examine the evidence. There's a lot of tomfoolery and unfounded claims out there with this hobby as HD mentioned above. Receivers aren't warm or analytical or chocolatey. They should all be more or less equally accurate and transparent. At least as far as anything audible.

I always preferred strawberry anyway

I'm a control systems and automation engineer by trade - on topics relating to that I might hold my opinions to a little more weight. Also mental health, as I've had formal training in that too
I try to pick up a passing knowledge of things (as I mentioned, I have to at least have a theory on why and how for most things, or I actually lose sleep over it), but I will gladly raise my hand high and say "I am still learning". I guess many people don't want all their research (and therefore time), and opinions (and therefore decisions) to potentially be incorrect or a waste, so they defend them. I don't see them as a waste, it's all a journey. It's disappointing when things aren't how you thought they are sometimes, but exciting sometimes too. At the end of the day, we're allowed to be disappointed. It's OK

Like Ryan said, you believe everything you read on the interwebs ? One of the worst things about audio in general are the subjective reviews, particularly of electronics...I ignore most of them myself....they aren't even generally consistent. Most of the people offering such comparative opinions haven't even done a proper comparison test (which is rather difficult to execute with electronics like an avr, too). I differentiate avrs mostly on their feature/connectivity and somewhat the amp section (and do prefer avrs that have a complete set of pre-outs for amp options).

The old bit about Marantz and Denon I've seen before....and that has more to do with old 2ch stuff from Marantz, from several corporate owners before now, than their current offerings....and as a reputation for the entire brand, its just kinda silly. These days Denon & Marantz have had the same ownership for a while, many of their models sharing a lot of the internals, particularly the dsp such as Audyssey. Marantz in testing at ASR (audiosciencereview.com) has come out a bit poorer distortion spec-wise and this seems more due to their HDAM feature they market heavily. I've not had a Marantz receiver since the 70s/early 80s (a 2270), do have two Denon avrs currently (3808 and a 4520). I'd just pick the one priced better for the feature/connectivity set in any case, altho Marantz tends to be priced/marketed a bit differently here in the US so Denon usually has the better value here IMO.

Not sure what you meant about music/jazz for the subs....often when people talk about subs "for music" they are talking about subs that have limited low-frequency capabilities (i.e. extension), as much music doesn't have much content below 30-40 hz, whereas movies and effects generally regularly have 20hz and below content. A ported sub is more efficient in the lower frequencies, and a well designed ported sub works quite well for anything. A ported sub gets knocked for slightly higher group delay in some cases, but again a well designed sub this isn't a particular issue. A ported sub by definition will need a larger box than a sealed one using the same driver, and even many of the ported subs offered don't use as large a box as they could....shipping is expensive! Many people prefer smaller boxes in their rooms, too, often a driving factor....but sealed can still compete, if large enough and particularly with multiples. Personally I have built my own subs for the last several, and did use sealed boxes as they were simpler to build...I'm a novice wood worker and learning. I use quantity of subs to help out with more amps and dsp to help make up for their inefficiency....but with 3 18" (I built) and a dual 15" (Epik Empire) the performance is still quite good. The next time around will be a ported model most likely, if I don't just buy a GSG flat-pack....

Ahh I see! That makes sense. Thank you so much

As for the jazz comment - the only thing I could quickly come up with as to why some subs would be made specifically for music is if they were made specifically for the extra low notes that some brass instruments can output.
From what you've stated, "better for music" is actually "worse for movies", so on the movie-music seesaw, it is more music leaning. Except it isn't a seesaw
I'll go with the SVS.

 

[Pogre]

Damn HD, well put!

Just to elaborate a little further on the ported vs sealed thing; Decades ago this held a little bit more water as kinks and problems with ported designs were still being worked out and some of them had noticeable group delay. So in a way the rep was earned at one time. However with the advent of computer modeling, modern materials, build quality and understanding the problems those old designs had aren't there today with modern designs.

Sealed advocates like to point to group delay, but today there are some really well designed ported subs available with less group delay than some sealed models. In any case it's so low for either design as to be undetectable for human hearing. Ported designs are more efficient, have higher output in deeper frequencies and low enough group delay to compete with sealed. The only real knock for ported is they require bigger boxes, but they can almost quadruple the output of a typical sealed sub with the same sized driver.

 

[lovinthehd]

I always preferred strawberry anyway

I'm a control systems and automation engineer by trade - on topics relating to that I might hold my opinions to a little more weight. Also mental health, as I've had formal training in that too
I try to pick up a passing knowledge of things (as I mentioned, I have to at least have a theory on why and how for most things, or I actually lose sleep over it), but I will gladly raise my hand high and say "I am still learning". I guess many people don't want all their research (and therefore time), and opinions (and therefore decisions) to potentially be incorrect or a waste, so they defend them. I don't see them as a waste, it's all a journey. It's disappointing when things aren't how you thought they are sometimes, but exciting sometimes too. At the end of the day, we're allowed to be disappointed. It's OK


Ahh I see! That makes sense. Thank you so much

As for the jazz comment - the only thing I could quickly come up with as to why some subs would be made specifically for music is if they were made specifically for the extra low notes that some brass instruments can output.
From what you've stated, "better for music" is actually "worse for movies", so on the movie-music seesaw, it is more music leaning. Except it isn't a seesaw
I'll go with the SVS.

Glad it helps. Brass doesn't go low, unless you're talking brass pipes of a massive organ perhaps....some of those go to 16Hz. Subs aren't made "for music" they're made to reproduce audio of a specific frequency range, and a true sub is often considered one that can at least perform to 20hz well. I do like electronic music as well as organs and low bass from pianos/guitars and pretty much anywhere I can get it, I am a bassoholic for sure. I'd just rather have a sub capable of whatever I throw at it, rather than be limited in extension particularly.

ps The way we hear bass is different as well as the way rooms react to lower bass....try this article (parts 1 and 2, 2 might be more to the point) https://www.soundandvision.com/content/schroeder-frequency-show-and-tell-part-1

 

[Squigz]

including an ancient turntable , something the tv would be lousy at handling.

What are you talking about. I've seen plenty OK looking USB turntables for $100 on alibaba! hahahaha
Yes indeed, audio input wise the AVR still is a clear winner. I don't plan on even getting a higher end blueray player at this stage so, baby steps

As for talking to devices, I have no idea, have no desire to do that. My Amazon firesticks popup a message frequently trying to entice me over to the dark side by saying my remote hasn't been fully set up since I haven't used Alexa.....I type out texts and emails, too. I'm old.

I actually still do a lot by hand, it feels nice to interact with things. Living with people who want to talk to everything, and working in the field of automation and smarts does sway you a lot though. I am becoming more and more of a convert.

I am all for automation though, and I intend to make my own home automation hub and program a lot of things from there. I don't need to talk to everything, but I would like to customise some light switches at least.

 

[Squigz]

Damn HD, well put!

Just to elaborate a little further on the ported vs sealed thing; Decades ago this held a little bit more water as kinks and problems with ported designs were still being worked out and some of them had noticeable group delay. So in a way the rep was earned at one time. However with the advent of computer modeling, modern materials, build quality and understanding the problems those old designs had aren't there today with modern designs.

Sealed advocates like to point to group delay, but today there are some really well designed ported subs available with less group delay than some sealed models. In any case it's so low for either design as to be undetectable for human hearing. Ported designs are more efficient, have higher output in deeper frequencies and low enough group delay to compete with sealed. The only real knock for ported is they require bigger boxes, but they can almost quadruple the output of a typical sealed sub with the same sized driver.

That's your opinion!!! I heard from my friend's housemate's partner's wife's ex that their cat thought ported sounded horrid! And I trust that cat with my life!!!!! (am I doing the forum thing right now?)

I'm expecting an "unless you want to cause fractures in your neighbour's slab as it cures when they start building, no", but - power difference in the 2 subs? Any real difference? the REL has 500W. Seems excessive. Maybe it needs it because it draws more current struggling against the lack of being ported :V

 

[lovinthehd]

What are you talking about. I've seen plenty OK looking USB turntables for $100 on alibaba! hahahaha
Yes indeed, audio input wise the AVR still is a clear winner. I don't plan on even getting a higher end blueray player at this stage so, baby steps


I actually still do a lot by hand, it feels nice to interact with things. Living with people who want to talk to everything, and working in the field of automation and smarts does sway you a lot though. I am becoming more and more of a convert.

I am all for automation though, and I intend to make my own home automation hub and program a lot of things from there. I don't need to talk to everything, but I would like to customise some light switches at least.

Well a usb turntable will generally have it's own phono pre-amp, the phono section is becoming rare on an avr these days, so another consideration perhaps when choosing an avr. Have used the same tt now for the last almost 37 years....there was just vinyl for the most part way back when Altho I quickly converted to optical disc as it became readily availalble, but am a collector of sorts and have a reasonably good sized vinyl collection that I rarely use, but nice to have the option.

I do have several bluray players, streaming simply isn't as good. I do tend to simply rip my cds to flac/mp3 and play them from various drives, but I do like multich music quite a bit, and a player is often the only way to get that in the form of SACD, DVD-Audio, DVDs, Blurays, etc.

I understand about the talking to devices thing, it just is very weird to me and find more disadvantages altho I suppose voice translation has improved some since last time I tried....it got so many things wrong it was taking more time to deal with. I'm single, so have no others to worry about using my systems (which baffle most guests).

 

[Pogre]

That's your opinion!!! I heard from my friend's housemate's partner's wife's ex that their cat thought ported sounded horrid! And I trust that cat with my life!!!!! (am I doing the forum thing right now?)

I'm expecting an "unless you want to cause fractures in your neighbour's slab as it cures when they start building, no", but - power difference in the 2 subs? Any real difference? the REL has 500W. Seems excessive. Maybe it needs it because it draws more current struggling against the lack of being ported :V

Wattage isn't a lot to go by because of differences in speaker sensitivity. A more sensitive driver or more efficient design requires less power. Plus most sealed designs employ heavy dsp to make up for a lack of low end extension, which eats up a lot of power. Deeper frequencies require more power. Ported designs do it through design instead of brute force.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's your opinion!!! I heard from my friend's housemate's partner's wife's ex that their cat thought ported sounded horrid! And I trust that cat with my life!!!!! (am I doing the forum thing right now?)

I'm expecting an "unless you want to cause fractures in your neighbour's slab as it cures when they start building, no", but - power difference in the 2 subs? Any real difference? the REL has 500W. Seems excessive. Maybe it needs it because it draws more current struggling against the lack of being ported :V

Wattage without impedance/sensitivity information is largely meaningless as far as a sub amp goes, especially if you want to compare to another (and this information is largely withheld with commercial subs)....it's a number to impress the hicks so to speak, as much wattage specs for speakers are, too. Subs will have upper limits in terms of spl. You might look around this site for a good number of third party tests/specs (from the former sub reviewer here at Audioholics) https://data-bass.com/#/?_k=rw1bq4 altho he's relatively inactive now.

 

[Verdinut]

Damn HD, well put!

Just to elaborate a little further on the ported vs sealed thing; Decades ago this held a little bit more water as kinks and problems with ported designs were still being worked out and some of them had noticeable group delay. So in a way the rep was earned at one time. However with the advent of computer modeling, modern materials, build quality and understanding the problems those old designs had aren't there today with modern designs.

Sealed advocates like to point to group delay, but today there are some really well designed ported subs available with less group delay than some sealed models. In any case it's so low for either design as to be undetectable for human hearing. Ported designs are more efficient, have higher output in deeper frequencies and low enough group delay to compete with sealed. The only real knock for ported is they require bigger boxes, but they can almost quadruple the output of a typical sealed sub with the same sized driver.

Group delay has never been a major factor in the low frequency performance of loudspeakers. I refer you to the comment which Floyd Toole's made in his most recent book (Read from third paragraph):

Taken from Floyd Toole's book entitled "Sound Reproduction 3rd Edition" :

"Many investigators over many years attempted to determine whether phase shift mattered to sound quality. In every case it has been shown that, if it is audible, it is a subtle effect, most easily heard through headphones or in an anechoic chamber, using carefully chosen or contrived signals.

There is quite general agreement that with music, reproduced through loudspeakers in normally reflective rooms, phase shift is substantially or completely inaudible. When it has been audible as a difference, when it is switched in and out, it is not clear that listeners had a preference.

Others looked at the audibility of group delay. They found that the detection threshold is in the range of 1.6 to 2 ms, and more in reflective spaces.These numbers are not exceeded by normal domestic and monitor loudspeakers.

Lipschitz et al. (1982) conclude: “All of the effects described can reasonably be classified as subtle. We are not, in our present state of knowledge, advocating that phase linear transducers are a requirement for high-quality sound reproduction.” Greenfield and Hawksford (1990) observe that phase effects in rooms are “very subtle effects indeed,” and seem mostly to be spatial rather than timbral. As to whether phase corrections are needed, without a phase correct recording process, any listener opinions are of personal preference, not the recognition of “accurate” reproduction."