Trying to fix transformer noise being amplified inconsistantly

L

Leo Shafai

Enthusiast
I got an old Noresco 2470 II (Canadian Rotel rx-202 of some sort) from my uncle and have been trying to fix a bit of a strange problem.

The sound of the transformer gets in the signal path and makes its way to the speakers, its normally fairly quiet and is pretty much inaudible if I have anything being played at the same time. However it will often constantly do one of three things:

1. Stay quiet for hour long lengths of time

2. Occasionally crescendo up to the "amplified" level, and then either stay at the for a random amount of time, could be 1-3 seconds, 15, or move on to #3, or not stay at it at all and immediately go to the "unamplified" level. When it returns to the unamplified level from any amount of time it always happens instantly, not with a decrescendo, and makes a slight popping sound (at the same volume as the previous sound, you just can tell its a little different)

3. Stay at the amplified level

I should also mention there is no "default" level on startup, even if you wait a bit between to let the capacitors drain it can start up loud or quiet. Usually if you shut it off in the loud state it will start up back into it though, at least for that sitting.

I don't measure any ac voltage on the input or output grounds (or any of the PCBs), however there is a measured 7V dc relative to the ground form the wall (ill need to bring a scope home to check if that's a dc wave or a constant level). Connecting any of these ground directly to the wall with an alligator clip doesn't have any effect on the noise however.

The only other measurement oddity is that the positive outputs on the left channel have ~38 ohms of resistance to ground while the ones on the right have ~132.


As for the possible fixes I've tried, there was a passthrough for the wall power that was tied to the power switch, so it crossed over everything from the front to back twice, right next to the output wires. as mention before tying the reference ground to the wall ground. I previously made sure no components or wires were leaning against each other just incase any vibrations were being picked up. Removing the lights in case those were what was making the noise and not the transformer, then removing the transformer and putting it off to the side on carpet, so any vibrations wouldn't be carried over (I suspect the wires coming from it would still carry the vibration however.

I can't find any explanation of why the noise from the transformer doesn't constantly get amplified and only sometimes, if its in the signal path. (I assuming its cause by that since its the same as the output on the speakers, and the noise floor from just raising the volume is a much higher frequency and random, and gets louder or quieter changing the volume knob (which happens before it goes through the amps) while the other sound does not). I could try using some direct ac power in and fully remove the transformer just to confirm the "amplified" noise does only happen while the transformer is in there, and it is not just a different noise that masks over it because its the same frequency.

Also tracing the outputs to the tansistors, the only components inbetween are a fuse and an inductor (one on each channel), then it goes to the 2nd transistors, then the first. So I can pretty much narrow down that its a signal that is being amplified which comes from after the volume pot and before the transistors that do the amplifying. The only other thing it could be are the inductors, but there are seperate ones on each channel and the noise comes out of both channels loud/quiet at the same time.
 
L

Leo Shafai

Enthusiast
wait, found out that that ground is actually connected to the other ground at the source already, shouldn't have tried to put a potential waveform into it.

found out with the scope its not the inductors doing anything, and its 50 mv before the transistors and 200 mv after, at 120 hz just as I measured with my ears (may have also taken an educated guess).

Since it happens inconsistantly, and the parts are very old, I suspect something with heat causing it something to expand and contract is making either a capacitor or a diode not to do their intended purpose. First time working with such old parts never really considered it before. Ill try replacing the capacitors at some point, if so Ill post again if it works since it might help someone 50 years in the future
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
wait, found out that that ground is actually connected to the other ground at the source already, shouldn't have tried to put a potential waveform into it.

found out with the scope its not the inductors doing anything, and its 50 mv before the transistors and 200 mv after, at 120 hz just as I measured with my ears (may have also taken an educated guess).

Since it happens inconsistantly, and the parts are very old, I suspect something with heat causing it something to expand and contract is making either a capacitor or a diode not to do their intended purpose. First time working with such old parts never really considered it before. Ill try replacing the capacitors at some point, if so Ill post again if it works since it might help someone 50 years in the future
60 cycle hum typically indicates a filter capacitor on the power supply, although a bad rectifier might make the job too difficult for the filter caps. 120 Hz seems odd. Can you trace the noise back to the pre-amp section?

If this is a very old piece of gear, I highly recommend watching some of Mr Carlson's Lab on YoutTube. He's from Canada and a real wiz with electronics including tube gear. He has schematics for a capacitor tester that he designed himself that can test caps for leakage without having to apply full voltage and can test for the outside foil on foil capacitors for proper orientation. Amazing piece of kit, but you have to become a Patreon member to get the schematics for that one.

The resistance mismatch on the outputs seems troublesome. Make sure the circuits are mirror images and check the bias voltages on the output transistors. Measure the output resistance in both polarities (directions) with a digital meter.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
60 cycle hum typically indicates a filter capacitor on the power supply, although a bad rectifier might make the job too difficult for the filter caps. 120 Hz seems odd. Can you trace the noise back to the pre-amp section?

If this is a very old piece of gear, I highly recommend watching some of Mr Carlson's Lab on YoutTube. He's from Canada and a real wiz with electronics including tube gear. He has schematics for a capacitor tester that he designed himself that can test caps for leakage without having to apply full voltage and can test for the outside foil on foil capacitors for proper orientation. Amazing piece of kit, but you have to become a Patreon member to get the schematics for that one.

The resistance mismatch on the outputs seems troublesome. Make sure the circuits are mirror images and check the bias voltages on the output transistors. Measure the output resistance in both polarities (directions) with a digital meter.
A 120Hz noise usually originates with a faulty ground connection on one of the interconnect cables. Is that noise happening with all input sources? Probably not. The OP has to switch interconnect cables and see what happens.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
A 120Hz noise usually originates with a faulty ground connection on one of the interconnect cables. Is that noise happening with all input sources? Probably not. The OP has to switch interconnect cables and see what happens.
If it's on a workbench I would assume that no external sources were connected. It has a tuner and can be tested with the radio, but if it's happening with everything connected that's a good point.
 
L

Leo Shafai

Enthusiast
If it's on a workbench I would assume that no external sources were connected. It has a tuner and can be tested with the radio, but if it's happening with everything connected that's a good point.
oh yeah nothing is connected to it at all besides the power, and switching the knob for the source makes no difference on anything.

It may actually be 60 hz, the scope I grabbed from work really isnt that good and it was actually constantly changing (sometimes would jsut say 5 Khz for no reason). The wave isnt neither a bump then flat or a bump than a dip, the area which should be flat has a bit of a half dip, sorta like ehen you have a half rectifier and put a capacitor so it stays at the peak for longer, except in this case strating from below 0 and heading up towards 0. So in terms of a full cycle its 60 hz but in practice its halfway to 120 hz.

(ive always just considered power in your house to be at 120 hz since it doesnt matter which side the wave is on but for some reason you would call it 120 if both are on top and 60 if only one is on top)
 
L

Leo Shafai

Enthusiast
Yeah I'm starting to be pretty confident its something to do with the capacitors. Before I was trying to solve stuff with my dad but we are both engineers (well I'm not legally an engineer but I work as one even though I don't have the accepted education) so we are always working with brand new parts and never considered something just getting warned out over time. But both you and one of my coworkers suggested it to me.

As for the resistance it's probably a pull dont resistor just so that theres not 0 ohms to ground when nothing is plugged in, so I'm not incredible concerened because as soon as I put an 8 ohm speaker in any other resistance becomes pretty irrelevant. Although the 38 ohm side is pretty low so since output voltage vs volume is sqaured (I think) that would imply its taking away about 1/3 of the volume, but both channels seems pretty equal. It could be there was a channel imbalance earlier on and they did that to compensated for it, so I'll definitely try anything on that last since if its fine I shouldn't try to fix it.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
If you have a scope you can check the DC supply rail coming from the power supply for any AC leakage. If you have a capacitor of the proper voltage you can also bridge the filter caps in parallel with a new one and see if the noise level drops (check the capacitor polarity with electrolytics).
 
L

Leo Shafai

Enthusiast
slight update, found out 2 of the fuses blew, mustve shorted something when using the scope earlier? they blew very quietly I guess.

edit: forgot to click reply, this is from yesterday evening)
 
L

Leo Shafai

Enthusiast
basically gonna close this thread, here's the end of the story at least for a while


thanks for the help & goodbye for now :)
 
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