Audyssey killing my HT sound?

[photographer86]

I am thinking about buying the app as well to make EQ adjustments also and just play more. However yes I have a pretty noisy room so far and when I ran auto setup the klipsch's sounded so flat and no highs. I turned the auto cal back off. Bought a calibrated mic and did a speaker calibration my self for spl to 75db and did some sweeps in the room also with REW and fixed the peaks as best I could. To me now sounds great! I think auto cal may work good if you have not so many reflections in a room. I don't know for sure.... just feel that way. Keep playing you'll get it and don't feel bad to turn off auto cal. A lot of people don't use it. Let them speakers breath! lol

 

[shadyJ]

Would you reject the possibility that some problematic room situations might benefit from RoomEQ?
I definitely benefited from it full range in the last specific case I applied it, but it was a temporary situation where I had one speaker 7' away and the other 10' away, so the benefit may have simply come from getting tehe distance/delay adjusted rather than RoomEQ.

Automated room correction can't improve room acoustics. However, in the situation of compensating for unequal speaker placement, it could work as you describe, however that solution would only be valid for a single listening position, obviously.

Oh Lord here we go. I have ears, I hated the sound before I ran Audyssey wrong and it's great now that I ran it correctly with a real tripod.
I know what sounds good and what doesn't.

This is the same line of reasoning used by people who think exotic power conditioners improve the sound of their system. Anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much in audio, sorry to say.

 

[Hetfield]

Automated room correction can't improve room acoustics. However, in the situation of compensating for unequal speaker placement, it could work as you describe, however that solution would only be valid for a single listening position, obviously.

This is the same line of reasoning used by people who think exotic power conditioners improve the sound of their system. Anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much in audio, sorry to say.

Ok I'm gonna duck out of my item thread. I'm not gonna spend my time arguing. Have a good thread.

 

[Jon AA]

Imo just because more people like bass with room gain doesn't make it right. Much more people prefer rock and pop music too than people who prefer classical.

I don't think comparing people who were judging the best quality of sound and the most accurate reproduction of sound to consumers' personal preferences in musical genre makes for an accurate analogy.

If you like a flat bass response, that's fine. I was just pointing out that most people don't and that's not how it will be naturally produced on most decent systems, so if Audyssey wanted to make more people happy, an option that aimed for the middle of the bell curve might give more people results they are happy with vs. only having a default that aims clearly outside the bell curve.

Of course the exact amount of rise in the bass region for any individual will be dependent upon equipment, setup, room and personal preference. For those that want to take it to that level, XT32 with the App, Dirac, Anthem as well as all higher end systems I'm aware of do allow for adjustment. But for the non-tech savvy who may stop after "pushing that one button," many of the others offer such curves as defaults or easily selectable options. It's possible, but not necessarily that easy for users of XT32 and the app to do the same.

If a speaker has flat response in an anechoic chamber, it will likely behave similarly in a large concert hall. .

A concert hall is not an anechoic chamber. Far from it. I don't know of any concert hall that would provide a flat response at the listening position from a speaker, musical instrument or voice to 20K, it's not really possible. In the bass region, some will have more rise than others but there's certainly no general rule that they'll all be flat. Here's an example of measurements from six different concert halls, from five different seating positions in each (the top row "R1" depicts being seated toward the front in each hall):

As you can see, even in a concert hall, a flat bass response isn't the most common way we hear music.

 

[PENG]

I don't think comparing people who were judging the best quality of sound and the most accurate reproduction of sound to consumers' personal preferences in musical genre makes for an accurate analogy.

If you like a flat bass response, that's fine. I was just pointing out that most people don't and that's not how it will be naturally produced on most decent systems, so if Audyssey wanted to make more people happy, an option that aimed for the middle of the bell curve might give more people results they are happy with vs. only having a default that aims clearly outside the bell curve.

Of course the exact amount of rise in the bass region for any individual will be dependent upon equipment, setup, room and personal preference. For those that want to take it to that level, XT32 with the App, Dirac, Anthem as well as all higher end systems I'm aware of do allow for adjustment. But for the non-tech savvy who may stop after "pushing that one button," many of the others offer such curves as defaults or easily selectable options. It's possible, but not necessarily that easy for users of XT32 and the app to do the same.


A concert hall is not an anechoic chamber. Far from it. I don't know of any concert hall that would provide a flat response at the listening position from a speaker, musical instrument or voice to 20K, it's not really possible. In the bass region, some will have more rise than others but there's certainly no general rule that they'll all be flat. Here's an example of measurements from six different concert halls, from five different seating positions in each (the top row "R1" depicts being seated toward the front in each hall):

View attachment 31109

As you can see, even in a concert hall, a flat bass response isn't the most common way we hear music.

I never said it would be flat or same as anechoic, but I meant to say it would behave similarly, only in relative sense to that of most typical small to medium large HT rooms most people who post here regularly. And I did say "large" concert hall.

Many of the graphs you attached don't have the ramp up to the low end shape that apparently most prefer. As to the analogy I used, I thought it was appropriate in the narrow sense that different people have different taste, so more people prefer heavier bass towards the low end is no different than more people prefer a certain music genre but I respect your view point and we can agree to disagree on such subjective matter.

So let's agree a specific concert hall has a sort of room gain too and that is significant. A good live recording, should have capture the effects of such room gain right? In fact, the same principle/logic should apply to a recording studio as well. So in theory, if everything is done perfectly, the speakers should be able to reproduce such effects faithfully, if the room in which it is situated have no further effects as as room gains. In other words, the complete audio chain, from the source recording, media player, preamp, power amp, through to the speakers have to be transparent, definitely without being influence by the room. Unfortunately that is not possible, the room will invariably influence the speaker's in room frequency response; and that's what REQ systems such as Audyssey, Anthem ARC, Dirac, Trinnov, Roomperfect , YPAO, REW were supposedly designed to help reduce the effects of the room where the music is reproduced. If successful, the "corrected" response should be closer to what was recorded for reproduction, that came with the room effects of the recording venue, i.e. recording studio, or stadium, park, concert hall etc., if recorded "live".

That's my logic about why the base line has to be flat, that is, faithful, transparent. From there, the individual can make their own adjustments, be it tone control, PEQ, graphic, or whatever.

 

[Jon AA]

A good live recording, should have capture the effects of such room gain right? In fact, the same principle/logic should apply to a recording studio as well. So in theory, if everything is done perfectly....

Unfortunately, I think the "Circle of Confusion" means there is going to be no universal correct answer. There are no standards for this in the music industry so you can probably find thousands of examples where things are done the way you think they should be as well as thousands that weren't.

My understanding is that there's really no such thing as a direct from microphone--burn to CD--ship to store recording commercially available today. They're all going to be mixed and processed. An orchestral recording is typically going to use many microphones and what they spit out is going to be mixed and EQ'd to whatever the guy doing the mixing thinks sounds best. So who knows what that will be. For even the "very pure" recordings, such as the immersive Auro recordings done by 2L in Norway, while they say processing is kept to a minimum, they still do some of it.

To bring it full circle though, in all the preference testing and speaker shootout tests you'll ever read, actual music is being used. If that typically contained largely elevated bass already, one would think people would tend to prefer more of a flat response or speakers with weaker bass. That doesn't seem to happen.

That's my logic about why the base line has to be flat, that is, faithful, transparent. From there, the individual can make their own adjustments, be it tone control, PEQ, graphic, or whatever.

I guess it's just semantics, but the flaw I see in that logic is for the average guy with average speakers in an average room to get even a "flat-ish" bass response, he needs to either use speakers that lack bass capability or EQ some bass out of them. That just doesn't seem faithful, pure or transparent to me.

 

[lovinthehd]

This is the same line of reasoning used by people who think exotic power conditioners improve the sound of their system. Anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much in audio, sorry to say.

No, it isn't.

 

[XTex]

Oh Lord here we go. I have ears, I hated the sound before I ran Audyssey wrong and it's great now that I ran it correctly with a real tripod.
I know what sounds good and what doesn't.

I think Shady's point is that what Audyssey is actually doing is manipulating the EQ so that the sound at your listening position exhibits certain 'ideal' characteristics that people generally like; this is necessary because listeners have some combination of speakers that don't provide an ideal frequency response, problems with placement, and/or overall room acoustics challenges. The premise is that with speakers that already exhibit that ideal response and/or more ideal speaker placement one wouldn't need to artificially manipulate the EQ to achieve the 'Audyssey sound'.

After many years as a musician as well as can and home audio aficionado I feel like the less EQ one can use, bolstered by the selection of gear that is as close to the final sonic signature as possible and placing it in the best position available, the better.

 

[Jon AA]

In a discussion of EQ today Floyd Toole said something that made me think of this thread:

Bass is good, and too much bass is one of the "forgivable sins"

 

[Pogre]

In a discussion of EQ today Floyd Toole said something that made me think of this thread:

He really is an audio genius!

 

[M Code]

Agreed..
Dr.Toole is very knowledgeable, his book is excellent reading.
Link to his book..
https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/113892136X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=dr.+floyd+toole+books&qid=1568602314&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Plus he is a major lecturer @ CEDIA. We know him well personally, and worked with him directly on multiple audio projects.

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think someone kind of famous also said, "If it sounds good to you, then it's good".

 

[ParisB]

Is 300hz a good guess for my living room?

It's an open floor with the kitchen, and I have sloped ceilings. It's about 14' deep, 60' wide, with ceiling ranging from like 10' to 20'.

 

[lovinthehd]

Is 300hz a good guess for my living room?

It's an open floor with the kitchen, and I have sloped ceilings. It's about 14' deep, 60' wide, with ceiling ranging from like 10' to 20'.

Is 300hz a good guess for what?

 

[ParisB]

Is 300hz a good guess for what?

Sorry, meant for transition frequency.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sorry, meant for transition frequency.

AKA Schroeder frequency......that's a pretty large room, don't know. Found this calculator....http://www.acoustic.ua/forms/room-modes-eng.html

 

[Epsonfan]

Audyssey is a major killer with my system it sucked the bass out of my speaker & totally neutered my GoldenEar Triton Speakers.

 

[ParisB]

Audyssey is a major killer with my system it sucked the bass out of my speaker & totally neutered my GoldenEar Triton Speakers.

No, Audyssey doesn't suck the bass out. Read up on it and why personal preferences and hearing capabilities mean people want more bass after a calibration that level matches a system.

 

[TLS Guy]

No, Audyssey doesn't suck the bass out. Read up on it and why personal preferences and hearing capabilities mean people want more bass after a calibration that level matches a system.

I suppose there may be some systems improved by Audyssey. However it does ruin good systems. It adds corrections that good measuring techniques show to be wrong. The FIR filters cause significant and deleterious phase shifts, that upset well phased speaker systems. Worst of all the systems degrade the S/N ration and add noise audible at the listening position in all my three systems.

If you have a good system, Audyssey should absolutely NOT be used, it can only spoil the system.

Basically it is an ill conceived system to try and improve systems that are no darn good to begin with.

 

[Pandaman617]

For years I have was using XT32 limited to 300 or 500hz. Recently I started calibrating my subs with a MiniDSP HD and leaving Audyssey off and I’ve realized after a few months of ample time with both setups that I like my current setup with it off. Prior to this I’ve tried dozens of different brands and models of speakers and like it was mentioned depending on their engineering quality, placement and overall build quality Audyssey would either make a very noticeable difference or do nothing at all.