A little story about a drunk Republican and a drunk Democrat at the same table.

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't find I have much common ground with someone claiming the world is exactly 6000 years or so old.
Me either! And it really pisses me off that folks are trying to legislate in my country, right now, TODAY, teaching that to my children and grandchildren in public schools!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
As an athiest myself, it bothers me to no end seeing people that have cancer or some disease thanking god they survived when it was their god that came calling for them and MAN giving them back their lives. Doctors, nurses... SCIENCE that saved them.

A few years back my mother in law was about to die and doctors were scrambling to find her a new lung and at the last minute they came through, gave her the transplant and saved her life. All she ever does is tell people how god saved her. Sorry to say but God tried to kill her and failed miserably.
I recently heard a story of a woman who thanked god for finding a replacement organ her daughter needed to live.

That's to say nothing of the parents of the child who had to die so her daughter could receive the transplant...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
That was just an off-the-cuff statement, not a suggestion. Regardless, I would set the Golden Rule above any commandment.
Wasn't the golden rule first found in Bhuddism..?

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm just busting your balls. I actually think you and I are more in agreement than not.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
This has not yet turned into the sh!t show I thought it would.

Good job guys!! :)
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Also, I am unaware of any amendments contained in The Bible. I know the New Testament is supposed to be a new covenant, but there's nothing in the New Testament to suggest we should toss the old one. In fact Jesus says not one jot nor tittle of the law was to be changed. He also instructs all slaves to obey their masters, even the cruel ones.
Well, Luther moved some books to the apocrypha and removed some altogether. That's an example of what I mean by amendment. And, again, the different denominations do not all include the same books in their Bibles.

As for slavery, The Bible is full of allegory and parables and some interpretations of Jesus' statements on slavery suggest that they are metaphorical. I won't pretend to be a biblical scholar, so I'm not going to try to hit every one of your pitches.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Wasn't the golden rule first found in Bhuddism..?

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm just busting your balls. I actually think you and I are more in agreement than not.
The golden rule - or some version/variation - is found in many faith traditions. And, as I mentioned to @Trell, I probably have more in common with atheists than fundamentalists.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, Luther moved some books to the apocrypha and removed some altogether. That's an example of what I mean by amendment. And, again, the different denominations do not all include the same books in their Bibles.

As for slavery, The Bible is full of allegory and parables and some interpretations of Jesus' statements on slavery suggest that they are metaphorical. I won't pretend to be a biblical scholar, so I'm not going to try to hit every one of your pitches.
Yeah, it's an ambiguous mess that has created over a thousand different denominations who can't agree on exactly what one must do for salvation, the single most important question in all of existence if true.

The laws and rules for slavery however, are very clear and not allegory. A person has to do some pretty fantastical mental gymnastics and tap dancing to reconcile the bible's stance on slavery with any kind of morality. That's why it's one of my first go-to examples. They clearly lay out that slaves are your property that you can pass down to your children, and that you can beat them as long as they don't die within a couple of days. It also instructs you where to buy your slaves (from the heathen that surround you) with different rules for Jewish slaves in that they're to go free in 7 years, but there's wiggle room in there so you can trick them into being yours forever.

It'd be one thing if the bible said nothing about slavery. Then you could just blame man, but it does, and in fact endorses it. Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:44, Ephesians 6:5, 1 Peter 2:18 and more. It's very clear. Like I said, I encourage anyone reading this conversation to check it out and decide for themselves.
 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Yeah, it's an ambiguous mess that has created over a thousand different denominations who can't agree on exactly what one must do for salvation, the single most important question in all of existence if true.
I don't worry about salvation. If one's motivation to be a good person is to end up in heaven rather than hell...well, I would question that kind of attitude.
The laws and rules for slavery however, are very clear and not allegory. A person has to do some pretty fantastical mental gymnastics and tap dancing to reconcile the bible's stance on slavery with any kind of morality. That's why it's one of my first go-to examples. They clearly lay out that slaves are your property that you can pass down to your children, and that you can beat them as long as they don't die within a couple of days. It also instructs you where to buy your slaves (from the heathen that surround you) with different rules for Jewish slaves in that they're to go free in 7 years, but there's wiggle room in there so you can trick them into being yours forever.

It'd be one thing if the bible said nothing about slavery. Then you could just blame man, but it does, and in fact endorses it. Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:44, Ephesians 6:5, 1 Peter 2:18 and more. It's very clear. Like I said, I encourage anyone reading this conversation to check it out and decide for themselves.
I can understand your example of slavery as a justification for criticizing The Bible - it's the low-hanging fruit no-brainer argument. But, if you're expecting me to excuse or defend the passages related to slavery, you're swinging at thin air, because I won't.

Fundamentalists might look upon it as the infallible, literal word of God. But, as I stated before, I don't place Christianity above any faith - or non-faith, for that matter. So, I don't consider it to be the divine word of God. It is a work of its time, written by real, imperfect people, in the context of their era.

I don't consult The Bible for guidance on the acquisition of slaves any more than I do for the rules on what fabrics to wear or whether I can have lobster for supper.

Many arguments from atheists against The Bible are, in actuality, false dilemmas. You are presented with two options: either accept that everything in The Bible is literally true and factual (a position that is easy to attack) or, if you're not onboard with everything, you should dismiss it in its entirety.

My initial point - that 'chucking religion' would lead to greater cooperation and harmony is very unlikely - was not intended to start a theological debate. I still stand by that. The atheism vs deism argument is just a diversion.

As an aside, while the stereotype of the Trump supporter is a white evangelical, in the 2016 election, a significant proportion of Trump voters - 26% - were irreligious.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't worry about salvation. If one's motivation to be a good person is to end up in heaven rather than hell...well, I would question that kind of attitude.
I totally agree, btw. Tho salvation is the cornerstone of Christianity, no?

Yes, I brought up slavery because it's easy, low hanging fruit. Someone made a post earlier to the effect of taking moral lessons from the bible so... If I'm gonna lead in with something I think one should present their best argument first.

The fundamentalists are by and large my biggest concern. There's a real issue with those guys here in the states. You might not believe the bible is the inerrant word of god but that group certainly does, and they're tryna legislate their beliefs onto the rest of the populace. It a big problem that a lot of the more reasonable folk are unaware of. They're not harmless, and their beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. For the fundamentalists "truth and morality is that which conforms with the mind of god". Well... how does anyone know the mind of god? The bible.

Like I said earlier tho, I think you and I largely agree more than not. I'm pretty sure most practicing, church going, bible thumping Christians would likely tell you you're doing it wrong and bound for hell, lol. I don't think we have much to quarrel over.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I totally agree, btw. Tho salvation is the cornerstone of Christianity, no?
If one wishes to look at it that way, sure. I'm not a slave to dogma.
Yes, I brought up slavery because it's easy, low hanging fruit. Someone made a post earlier to the effect of taking moral lessons from the bible so... If I'm gonna lead in with something I think one should present their best argument first.

The fundamentalists are by and large my biggest concern. There's a real issue with those guys here in the states. You might not believe the bible is the inerrant word of god but that group certainly does, and they're tryna legislate their beliefs onto the rest of the populace. It a big problem that a lot of the more reasonable folk are unaware of. They're not harmless, and their beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. For the fundamentalists "truth and morality is that which conforms with the mind of god". Well... how does anyone know the mind of god? The bible.

Like I said earlier tho, I think you and I largely agree more than not. I'm pretty sure most practicing, church going, bible thumping Christians would likely tell you you're doing it wrong and bound for hell, lol. I don't think we have much to quarrel over.
I hear ya. While we have pockets of fundamentalism in Canada, they are smaller - proportionately and in absolute numbers - than in the US.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
If one wishes to look at it that way, sure. I'm not a slave to dogma.

I hear ya. While we have pockets of fundamentalism in Canada, they are smaller - proportionately and in absolute numbers - than in the US.
If I'm ever in your neck of the woods I'm looking you up and buying you a beer. I think we could have some great discussions over a couple beers. We might not see completely eye to eye, but I do appreciate your input and level headed...ness. This is a touchy subject and could easily devolve into ugliness. It didn't, and it takes 2 to tango.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
If I'm ever in your neck of the woods I'm looking you up and buying you a beer. I think we could have some great discussions over a couple beers. We might not see completely eye to eye, but I do appreciate your input and level headed...ness. This is a touchy subject and could easily devolve into ugliness. It didn't, and it takes 2 to tango.
Anytime!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
My initial point - that 'chucking religion' would lead to greater cooperation and harmony is very unlikely
How about chuck religion and replace it with secular humanism? You're right. Just simply chucking religion isn't the the sole answer. When you get a chance look up the secular humanist manifesto and give it a read.. I feel it's vastly superior to any religious doctrine I've been presented with.
 
WookieGR

WookieGR

Full Audioholic
if you look at the habits of people and how they are easily and willfully misled by propaganda and misinformation, you will notice there are those with no interest in seeking truth or enlightenment. They simply want to be spoon fed the things that feed their inner demons. Those without the inner demons tend to look outside for more meaning and answers. Kind of like how the current state of partisan politics works.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
How about chuck religion and replace it with secular humanism? You're right. Just simply chucking religion isn't the the sole answer. When you get a chance look up the secular humanist manifesto and give it a read.. I feel it's vastly superior to any religious doctrine I've been presented with.
Are you proselytizing to me now?:D

Be careful - it's when you start to feel that your philosophy of life is superior to all others that the trouble starts. ;)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Are you proselytizing to me now?:D

Be careful - it's when you start to feel that your philosophy of life is superior to all others that the trouble starts. ;)
Hey, it's not perfect or inerrant, but a pretty good start. Give it a read and let me know what you think.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
if you look at the habits of people and how they are easily and willfully misled by propaganda and misinformation, you will notice there are those with no interest in seeking truth or enlightenment. They simply want to be spoon fed the things that feed their inner demons. Those without the inner demons tend to look outside for more meaning and answers. Kind of like how the current state of partisan politics works.
I think you really, really are touching on something substantive here. Thinking about this stuff, the foundations of morality, what makes something "good" or "bad"? Where do we derive "ought" statements? Why? It's not easy, and there are a lot of slippery slopes and rabbit holes along the way. It's so nice to just have someone tell us to do what we should do, "because the bible says so". It's quick and easy shortcut instead of really diving in thinking about the larger implications or the why.

I don't agree with everything Sam Harris has to say, but I do like his version of making moral decisions based on their impact to well being and harm reduction. It's argued that's a little bit of a fuzzy foundation and not completely well defined but I would compare it to "good health". Which is also kinda fuzzy and not well defined, but I think that everyone has a pretty good idea of what it means to be healthy, along with what it means to increase well being and reduce suffering, and we can have the conversations about it.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I think you really, really are touching on something substantive here. Thinking about this stuff, the foundations of morality, what makes something "good" or "bad"? Where do we derive "ought" statements? Why? It's not easy, and there are a lot of slippery slopes and rabbit holes along the way. It's so nice to just have someone tell us to do what we should do, "because the bible says so". It's quick and easy shortcut instead of really diving in thinking about the larger implications or the why.

I don't agree with everything Sam Harris has to say, but I do like his version of making moral decisions based on their impact to well being and harm reduction. It's argued that's a little bit of a fuzzy foundation and not completely well defined but I would compare it to "good health". Which is also kinda fuzzy and not well defined, but I think that everyone has a pretty good idea of what it means to be healthy, along with what it means to increase well being and reduce suffering, and we can have the conversations about it.
I just look at it like this, and teach my kids this way.

Leave the world a little better than you found it. How you do that is up to you, but that's what the goal should be.
 
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