Symptoms of AV receiver running out of power?

[Am_P]

The way it's been explained to me, and makes sense, is that amplification is a very mature technology. The big players all have the same goal of transparency and low distortion output, and have that part of it figured out with most having such ridiculously low distortion numbers the differences are inaudible. Most amps when operated within spec with all else being equal should sound the same. There are some exceptions like tube amps or difficult to drive speakers, but for the most part, in my experience that's been the case.

Here's an interesting article that I like to link of a carefully set up dbt between some high dollar "audiophile grade" gear with fancy cables and an entry level setup using the same speakers with interesting results.

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

There aren't a lot of examples out there because proper DBTs are a pain to set up and get right, but I'm unaware of any that have had better than chance odds of listeners able to tell one from another.

I have no golden ears and i am sure i will fail some controlled listening tests.
I have read before that power amps should sound the same if operated within their linear region. But, amps are mostly tested with simple impedances, correct? unless someone has figured out a way to simulate complex impedances representative of different speakers in their tests.

I have just made simple listening comparisons with a couple of different amps in my house. Complex orchestral music revealed the difference between a nice amp and a not so nice amp to my ears. In my case, it revealed the difference between a Marantz PM8006 and a very cheap class D Chinese amp from amazon. But, the most i have spent on a 2 channel amp is a used Marantz PM8006 for 600 dollars. I got my Andrew Jones Unifi speakers used from a guy who upgraded to something else (I try to get used gear whenever i can). Maybe a 10000 dollar Classe amp would sound better. But, i don't know and i don't care to know because 10000 dollars for an audio component is simply not a reality for my wallet. I am just not that kind of end user.

 

[lovinthehd]

This brings up a question. This receiver has a "input trim" level for different sources, which can be adjusted anywhere from 0db to 6db. I currently have it set at 0db. I assume this is the input trim to the poweramp from the preamp sections. Should it be set at 0db or higher?

That's to enable different sources of different input levels to play at approximately the same level when changing inputs. The only use on my avrs I have for this is for a turntable of significantly lower input level than my digital sources....

 

[highfigh]

I have had a decent amount of exposure to 2 channel gear in the past. It is this type of atmos capable multichannel gear that i am very new to. With the ECO mode 'on', it sounded like, i wanna say there was some current limiting going on. I have a feel for what it sounds like with 2 channel gear. With Eco mode 'on', it is what the receiver sounded like on some orchestral music perhaps. But, i have the Eco mode 'off' now and it is now hitting like a mac truck.

I honestly didn't know receivers of this caliber existed. I have had a older entry level pioneer in the past for basic hometheater and movie usage paired very basic speakers. To be honest, music sounded lame on that setup. I very much subscribed to the thought process of the 2 channel world since then, where they tend to say that multichannel receivers suck and giant integrated amps are the way to go for hifi listening. It is like the the word 'receiver' is associated with mid-fi or low-fi perhaps. But, i stand corrected for now because this Yamaha paired with my new Elacs sounds several magnitudes better than my old setup. It is not even a comparison. Thanks for the info on the web interface. I have not gotten that far yet.

It's hard to say how much compression occurred without knowing the specific music you were listening to, but Classical is likely to cause it more than most, because the dynamic range on the recordings is greater than Pop music, certainly. However, the medium matters and WHEN it was recorded or put on CD/in digital format. The first CDs had severely restricted dynamic range and it could be seen on an RTA when comparing the levels of a CD and the same recording on an LP- I saw differences of at least 10dB in many cases.

 

[highfigh]

This brings up a question. This receiver has a "input trim" level for different sources, which can be adjusted anywhere from 0db to 6db. I currently have it set at 0db. I assume this is the input trim to the poweramp from the preamp sections. Should it be set at 0db or higher?

That function is for matching the levels of various sources, since they're not always equal. The average level from cable/satellite boxes can be higher than from a streaming device, CD/DVD/BD player, tuner, tape machine, turntable, etc. It's not for setting a reference level for the whole system- that's the function of the volume control. Choosing a power amp correctly comes from knowing the output level and impedance of a given preamp and using the connecting cables that are appropriate (which means, use XLR for balanced low impedance equipment, but don't use them when the equipment is geared toward the consumer market as a way to generate sales because 'XLR' has become a buzzword and leads to confusion. Most consumer equipment with XLR jacks isn't true balanced (often called 'complimentary balanced') and it's almost never low impedance. XLR is an old connector, developed for commercial/industrial equipment, to conduct signal over long distances on cable that's usually called 'shielded, twisted pair', or 'STP'. The cable can be used for almost any analog audio application and it's nothing special from the marketing angle but from the engineering and application side, it works great. It tends to be very thin, overall, and since some people think that good cables need to be thicker, they're missing the point- the cable does what it can, and no more. Belden is one of the largest cable manufacturers, but consumers know very little about them and almost never hear about them. I have used their STP cables in residential installations many times, usually hearing "Aren't you going to use Monster Cables?". Uh, no, I'm not.

Cables need to be appropriate to the equipment- brand, mystique/BS stories, attached batteries and marketing claims are immaterial.

I asked someone in the audio installation/recording industry for their thoughts on tweaky cables and he responded with "You know what people in studios do when they need a cable at 8:30 on a Friday or Saturday night?" and I said "Go to Radio Shack". He responded with "Exactly!".

 

[highfigh]

I have no golden ears and i am sure i will fail some controlled listening tests.
I have read before that power amps should sound the same if operated within their linear region. But, amps are mostly tested with simple impedances, correct? unless someone has figured out a way to simulate complex impedances representative of different speakers in their tests.

I have just made simple listening comparisons with a couple of different amps in my house. Complex orchestral music revealed the difference between a nice amp and a not so nice amp to my ears. In my case, it revealed the difference between a Marantz PM8006 and a very cheap class D Chinese amp from amazon. But, the most i have spent on a 2 channel amp is a used Marantz PM8006 for 600 dollars. I got my Andrew Jones Unifi speakers used from a guy who upgraded to something else (I try to get used gear whenever i can). Maybe a 10000 dollar Classe amp would sound better. But, i don't know and i don't care to know because 10000 dollars for an audio component is simply not a reality for my wallet. I am just not that kind of end user.

At some point, we just need to listen to the music and forget about the equipment. If the music doesn't take precedent at some point, why are we doing this?

I worked with someone who fancied himself to be an audiophile. First of all, the need for someone to feel that they're an audiophile is their problem, not ours. Second, he said he listened mostly to music by Enya. OK, but what about all of the great music out there that wasn't recorded with impeccable quality, using mics that were blessed by some monk on a high mountain in the Himalayas? Bad music that was well recorded is worthless but even a recording of a great song from the 1920s can be extremely enjoyable.

 

[Trell]

At some point, we just need to listen to the music and forget about the equipment. If the music doesn't take precedent at some point, why are we doing this?

I worked with someone who fancied himself to be an audiophile. First of all, the need for someone to feel that they're an audiophile is their problem, not ours. Second, he said he listened mostly to music by Enya. OK, but what about all of the great music out there that wasn't recorded with impeccable quality, using mics that were blessed by some monk on a high mountain in the Himalayas? Bad music that was well recorded is worthless but even a recording of a great song from the 1920s can be extremely enjoyable.

One of the most enjoyable multi-channel SACDs I have is the following that does have quite a bit of audible recorded noise in the silent parts. The SACD is not hybrid, though, below is what is found online but I've not listened to it:

Vivaldi: Late Violin Concertos by Giuliano Carmignola, Venice Baroque Orchestra & Andrea Marcon on Apple Music

Album · 2001 · 18 Songs

music.apple.com

 

[Pogre]

I have read before that power amps should sound the same if operated within their linear region. But, amps are mostly tested with simple impedances, correct? unless someone has figured out a way to simulate complex impedances representative of different speakers in their tests.

That's where DBT using music comes into play, like the one I linked. There's no measuring involved other than the listeners' ears and subjective experience.

 

[Pogre]

One of the most enjoyable multi-channel SACDs I have is the following that does have quite a bit of audible recorded noise in the silent parts. The SACD is not hybrid, though, below is what is found online but I've not listened to it:

Vivaldi: Late Violin Concertos by Giuliano Carmignola, Venice Baroque Orchestra & Andrea Marcon on Apple Music

Album · 2001 · 18 Songs

music.apple.com

I have 1 song from that album that was a sample (Bellezza Crudel?), along with a couple of others. It is super clean and sq is excellent. It's a very good recording.

 

[Trell]

I have 1 song from that album that was a sample (Bellezza Crudel?), along with a couple of others. It is super clean and sq is excellent. It's a very good recording.

I hear it clearly while playing the SACD, but even on the ripped SACD stereo layer as well. I'm unable to upload a short example to AH, though, that I cut out using Audacity.

 

[Verdinut]

One of the most enjoyable multi-channel SACDs I have is the following that does have quite a bit of audible recorded noise in the silent parts. The SACD is not hybrid, though, below is what is found online but I've not listened to it:

Vivaldi: Late Violin Concertos by Giuliano Carmignola, Venice Baroque Orchestra & Andrea Marcon on Apple Music

Album · 2001 · 18 Songs

music.apple.com

That disc must be one of the latest non hybrid SACDs which Sony released. To my knowledge, Sony was the only SACD manufacturer to issue compact discs with only an SACD layer.

By the way, Amazon.com only has a used CD version of the same recording available, whereas Amazon.ca would have at least one of the SACDs left.

Amazon.ca

www.amazon.ca

 

[Trell]

I hear it clearly while playing the SACD, but even on the ripped SACD stereo layer as well. I'm unable to upload a short example to AH, though, that I cut out using Audacity.

Here is link to a FLAC file about 6MB large: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ahkg9j1O0QDrc7Mk0QIqNL2zels?e=MkbAZ2

 

[Trell]

That disc must be one of the latest non hybrid SACDs which Sony released. To my knowledge, Sony was the only SACD manufacturer to issue compact discs with only an SACD layer.

I've a few other non-hybrid SACD not made by Sony but non-hybrid SACD are pretty rare anyway.

 

[highfigh]

One of the most enjoyable multi-channel SACDs I have is the following that does have quite a bit of audible recorded noise in the silent parts. The SACD is not hybrid, though, below is what is found online but I've not listened to it:

Vivaldi: Late Violin Concertos by Giuliano Carmignola, Venice Baroque Orchestra & Andrea Marcon on Apple Music

Album · 2001 · 18 Songs

music.apple.com

The thing that struck me the first time I listened to CDs at The Consumer Electronics Show in about 1980 was the lack of noise. Granted, the noise from people in the area was substantial and they let us use crappy Walkman style headphones, but the noise was just gone. FF to the first released units (Their CDP-101) and we were able to hear the music in a more controlled environment- some of it was great but some, not so much. Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain and 'Kind of Blue' were great, they had a couple of Telarc discs (1812 Overture being one that we used for demo a lot, partially because of the real cannon that were used) but some were just OK. The Miles Davis CDs were Mono, just like the original LPs and they really were recorded well.

We do have the ability to ignore some noises and accept bad sound quality, more or less depending on the person and their experience in doing that.

 

[KNOTSCOTT]

I have no golden ears and i am sure i will fail some controlled listening tests.
I have read before that power amps should sound the same if operated within their linear region. But, amps are mostly tested with simple impedances, correct? unless someone has figured out a way to simulate complex impedances representative of different speakers in their tests.

I have just made simple listening comparisons with a couple of different amps in my house. Complex orchestral music revealed the difference between a nice amp and a not so nice amp to my ears. In my case, it revealed the difference between a Marantz PM8006 and a very cheap class D Chinese amp from amazon. But, the most i have spent on a 2 channel amp is a used Marantz PM8006 for 600 dollars. I got my Andrew Jones Unifi speakers used from a guy who upgraded to something else (I try to get used gear whenever i can). Maybe a 10000 dollar Classe amp would sound better. But, i don't know and i don't care to know because 10000 dollars for an audio component is simply not a reality for my wallet. I am just not that kind of end user.

Most of us have countless listening hours logged on our own systems, and know every little nuance. It's certainly easier to hear subtle differences between various equipment (like amps) on a fairly revealing system that we're very familiar with than it is on a system that's unfamiliar to us. I've heard subtle differences with every amp I've owned, from Technics to Yamaha, Hafler to NYAL, and DIstect to Dynaco, so am not surprised about your experience.

 

[3db]

The type of music you are playing will impact both when you push the AVR into clipping and how easily it is to detect distortion. Music with a wide spectrum such as orchestral music is much more revealing to distortion than jazz which contains a tighter spectrum.

 

[Pogre]

Most of us have countless listening hours logged on our own systems, and know every little nuance. It's certainly easier to hear subtle differences between various equipment (like amps) on a fairly revealing system that we're very familiar with than it is on a system that's unfamiliar to us. I've heard subtle differences with every amp I've owned, from Technics to Yamaha, Hafler to NYAL, and DIstect to Dynaco, so am not surprised about your experience.

I'm not surprised either. I think subjective, informal listening tests are all suspect unless done under controlled conditions. Sighted comparisons are flawed and notoriously inaccurate. I'm unaware of a single example of anyone doing better than chance in a DBT. Those differences always disappear when bias is taken out of the equation.

 

[highfigh]

The type of music you are playing will impact both when you push the AVR into clipping and how easily it is to detect distortion. Music with a wide spectrum such as orchestral music is much more revealing to distortion than jazz which contains a tighter spectrum.

What spectrum are you referring to? If you mean 'frequency spectrum', I don't necessarily agree since many instruments used in Jazz are also used in Classical, just not in the same number of chairs, although finger cymbals, chimes, triangles and other percussion instruments are easily heard above the rest but even their fundamental frequencies aren't much above 3KHz. The dynamic range, OTOH, can be much wider because of the number of instruments.

 

[3db]

What spectrum are you referring to? If you mean 'frequency spectrum', I don't necessarily agree since many instruments used in Jazz are also used in Classical, just not in the same number of chairs, although finger cymbals, chimes, triangles and other percussion instruments are easily heard above the rest but even their fundamental frequencies aren't much above 3KHz. The dynamic range, OTOH, can be much wider because of the number of instruments.

I do mean the frequency spectrum but jazz generally doesnt use near as many different instruments at the same time as an orchestra and therefore is spectrally less dense. The more instruments at play, the more harmonics, the more spectrally dense the material. Now if jazz incorporates most of the instruments at the same time, then yes, it would be spectrally dense as well.

 

[highfigh]

I do mean the frequency spectrum but jazz generally doesnt use near as many different instruments at the same time as an orchestra and therefore is spectrally less dense. The more instruments at play, the more harmonics, the more spectrally dense the material. Now if jazz incorporates most of the instruments at the same time, then yes, it would be spectrally dense as well.

Some big bands have been compared to a freight train when they were all hitting crescendos and when they're really cooking, it can be impressive. Obviously, electric bands can make their sound and instruments reach levels and frequencies that aren't possible with acoustic instruments but that's not what we're discussing.

 

[lovinthehd]

I do mean the frequency spectrum but jazz generally doesnt use near as many different instruments at the same time as an orchestra and therefore is spectrally less dense. The more instruments at play, the more harmonics, the more spectrally dense the material. Now if jazz incorporates most of the instruments at the same time, then yes, it would be spectrally dense as well.

Depends on what jazz you're talking about to an extent. Big jazz bands at one time were somewhat the norm. I'm more of the smaller ensemble taste myself....

@KNOTTSCOTT I have no idea what amp is in use in general (without spl levels exceeding capabilities or something obvious as that) despite using quite a few different amps over the years (and owning many now)...but they're all competent and not into imagining differences just because they're different units. Speakers and rooms have much more differences to contend with.