4 speakers for upgrade debate?

H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
He wants Gene's Speakers. :D
Those insanely giant RBH speakers that are like 40 grand a pair and they fly them to your house in a special helicopter and set them up for you?
Don't I feel poor hemming and hawing over 800 dollar speakers.

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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Those insanely giant RBH speakers that are like 40 grand a pair and they fly them to your house in a special helicopter and set them up for you?
Don't I feel poor hemming and hawing over 800 dollar speakers.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
We all "want" Gene's Speakers... ;) To be fair, I think he was lusting after the passive versions. Friend Pogre would need to clarify. I could be mistaken. They are more attainable for us mere mortals.

Of course, even I want to try on other speakers. Not that I want to replace my gear... I just want to expand my 'vocabulary,' so to speak. :D For me, the JTR 215RTs are still my fantasy What-If Speakers.
Beyond that, I just want to keep learning to design and build my own. :)
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
We all "want" Gene's Speakers... ;) To be fair, I think he was lusting after the passive versions. Friend Pogre would need to clarify. I could be mistaken. They are more attainable for us mere mortals.

Of course, even I want to try on other speakers. Not that I want to replace my gear... I just want to expand my 'vocabulary,' so to speak. :D For me, the JTR 215RTs are still my fantasy What-If Speakers.
Beyond that, I just want to keep learning to design and build my own. :)
JTR I mean must be crazy awesome, the RTJ speakers look just scary. That is stuff that I will never experience I know that. Too much everything with those.
I have a question along these lines. When you go crazy expensive with something like JTR that are let's face it not pretty in any way would you be better off with JBL commercial stuff? Am I thinking wrong here?

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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
JTR I mean must be crazy awesome, the RTJ speakers look just scary. That is stuff that I will never experience I know that. Too much everything with those.
I have a question along these lines. When you go crazy expensive with something like JTR that are let's face it not pretty in any way would you be better off with JBL commercial stuff? Am I thinking wrong here?

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to me, the real point of diminishing returns in Speakers starts somewhere around $1250 per Tower ($2500 per pair). When I was shopping, the best Speakers I heard were right in that neighborhood, and the more expensive ones were not so much better in SQ to make me question whether I should stretch further.
This is not to say it is not possible... just for me, this was the point where I started seeing the disconnect in cost vs performance.
Before I started stretching my budget to get the best performance per dollar I could, I was shopping much lower in the food chain, and there is nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of quality Speakers out there, but what I found in comparitive analysis is that you can always very easily ask the question, "why not spend another $100 here to get this, or $200 there to get that?"
And this comes back to the tradeoffs in design that all Speakers have in common. Size, Extension, Sensitivity: what are the goals the designer/manufacturer are working with for a particular product or line-up; what are they trying to deliver to the market; and how much can they charge for it against their cost to develop and build?
If you take the time to read reviews and compare similar product from different manufacturers, you will likely find these small details where one subjective reviewer may say Speaker A is a little more clear than Speaker B in the Mids, but Speaker B is stronger down low.
I did this for a lot of Speakers, reading everything, sorting past the subjective cr@p, and trying to develop my own understanding of the vocabulary the writers were using. Mind, this is way, WAY different than watching BS YT influencers wax prophetic about Speakers without really telling you anything other than they liked it, which frankly they do to just about every product that crosses their threshold.
But after reading all that stuff, then going out and listening to some of it, I started to understand some of that vocabulary, and some of the things I read made some sense... I was able to translate their 'speak' to my experience, and in the process better understand some of the things I could expect.
Now to fit that in to your question, the catch is is the specialization of what a designer is questing for, and what they can do and sell. For guys like Jeff at JTR, or Dennis Murphy or Jim Salk, this is a little different than bigger companies like SVS, or anything under the Harman (JBL, Revel, etc) or SU (Polk, DT, etc) umbrellas.
Jeff is using very high end coaxial driver in his horn, and they aren't cheap. This would likely compare more to the higher-end and more elusive JBL Synthesis Speakers more than they do to the JBL Synthesis HDI which are really their introductory models in that market segment. The HDIs are a step or two better than the Studio 5 series. Neither are likely directly comparable to the JTRs.
On the other hand, consider something like the JBL S4700 retailing somewhere around $15K per pair and compare that to the Noesis 215RTs. ;)

As the consumer, you are obviously limited in some manner by what you can afford/may afford/are willing to stretch to afford... ;) ...but that is a limit that is only really dependent on you and your choices. I saved for several years to originally buy a new Tenor Sax, only to realize that wouldn't make me pick up my horn again and work it out daily like I used to. I changed my plan and took that money and put it towards Audio, saving up everything I could spare for another year to be able to afford my rig, no holds barred, and without going into debt for it.

So when you decide your budget, and what you are willing to spend, I also urge considering whether you are buying out of want, something new to satisfy an urge; or are you buying for a system you can enjoy for 5-10 yrs? If the former, and upgrading in 2-3 years, maybe it doesn't matter. But if you are choosing something to last you 10 yrs, well, that's why I looked at the minute details I described above.

I know you've laid out some options, you've considered your budget and usage. What is your hang up at this point? (Not asking to be snarky! :) ) But I can see it in your process, and I was no different until I heard the Philharmonics I now own. I can tell something is still hanging and keeping you from committing. ;)

What's the scoop?
 
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L

Lakeshow2413

Junior Audioholic
The CMT-340 doesn't boast the best response. Unless you need the extra headroom, I definitely think the Sierra-1 is worth the extra cash. If you want an MTM system, I would look at the RSL CG25 or the Monolith THX-365 or the Outlaw LCRv2.
Let your ears be the judge not some measurements!! I ordered the Ascend CMT340’s for a friends 40’ by 60’ shop and they sound awesome.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
to me, the real point of diminishing returns in Speakers starts somewhere around $1250 per Tower ($2500 per pair). When I was shopping, the best Speakers I heard were right in that neighborhood, and the more expensive ones were not so much better in SQ to make me question whether I should stretch further.
This is not to say it is not possible... just for me, this was the point where I started seeing the disconnect in cost vs performance.
Before I started stretching my budget to get the best performance per dollar I could, I was shopping much lower in the food chain, and there is nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of quality Speakers out there, but what I found in comparitive analysis is that you can always very easily ask the question, "why not spend another $100 here to get this, or $200 there to get that?"
And this comes back to the tradeoffs in design that all Speakers have in common. Size, Extension, Sensitivity: what are the goals the designer/manufacturer are working with for a particular product or line-up; what are they trying to deliver to the market; and how much can they charge for it against their cost to develop and build?
If you take the time to read reviews and compare similar product from different manufacturers, you will likely find these small details where one subjective reviewer may say Speaker A is a little more clear than Speaker B in the Mids, but Speaker B is stronger down low.
I did this for a lot of Speakers, reading everything, sorting past the subjective cr@p, and trying to develop my own understanding of the vocabulary the writers were using. Mind, this is way, WAY different than watching BS YT influencers wax prophetic about Speakers without really telling you anything other than they liked it, which frankly they do to just about every product that crosses their threshold.
But after reading all that stuff, then going out and listening to some of it, I started to understand some of that vocabulary, and some of the things I read made some sense... I was able to translate their 'speak' to my experience, and in the process better understand some of the things I could expect.
Now to fit that in to your question, the catch is is the specialization of what a designer is questing for, and what they can do and sell. For guys like Jeff at JTR, or Dennis Murphy or Jim Salk, this is a little different than bigger companies like SVS, or anything under the Harman (JBL, Revel, etc) or SU (Polk, DT, etc) umbrellas.
Jeff is using very high end coaxial driver in his horn, and they aren't cheap. This would likely compare more to the higher-end and more elusive JBL Synthesis Speakers more than they do to the JBL Synthesis HDI which are really their introductory models in that market segment. The HDIs are a step or two better than the Studio 5 series. Neither are likely directly comparable to the JTRs.
On the other hand, consider something like the JBL S4700 retailing somewhere around $15K per pair and compare that to the Noesis 215RTs. ;)

As the consumer, you are obviously limited in some manner by what you can afford/may afford/are willing to stretch to afford... ;) ...but that is a limit that is only really dependent on you and your choices. I saved for several years to originally buy a new Tenor Sax, only to realize that that wouldn't make me pick up my horn again and work it out daily like I used to. I changed my plan and took that money and put it towards Audio, saving up everything I could spare for another year to be able to afford my rig, no holds barred, and without going into debt for it.

So when you decide your budget, and what you are willing to spend, I also urge considering whether you are buying out of want, something new to satisfy an urge; or are you buying for a system you can enjoy for 5-10 yrs? If the former, and upgrading in 2-3 years, maybe it doesn't matter. But if you are choosing something to last you 10 yrs, well, that's why I looked at the minute details I described above.

I know you've laid out some options, you've considered your budget and usage. What is your hang up at this point? (Not asking to be snarky! :) ) But I can see it in your process, and I was no different until I heard the Philharmonics I now own. I can tell something is still hanging and keeping you from committing. ;)

What's the scoop?
alrighty then, that was a lot to take in.
My hang up is paralysis by analysis. I like to read and watch every review known to mankind before making a move.
I'm also waiting on RSL for something also. They find accept Amazon payments yet which they say they are going to add in the near future. That helps because I have lots of credit there. I know that may sound a bit cryptic but that's the truth. With the credit I have with Amazon I could probably get 2 CG5s for half the price meaning just paying for one because the rest will be taken care of.
Man if I had the budget I'd love to try the JBL commercial theater speakers I just saw. They are heavy at 100 pounds each but I'd be curious what they sound like in a home setting.

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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
We all "want" Gene's Speakers... ;) To be fair, I think he was lusting after the passive versions. Friend Pogre would need to clarify. I could be mistaken. They are more attainable for us mere mortals.
Nailed it. Yup. The passive SVTR towers are what I have my sights set on. They are within the grasp of us mere mortals and that awesome RBH sub has me 1/4 of the way there. Another one of those and a pair of SV-831Rs and I have my towers.
Those insanely giant RBH speakers that are like 40 grand a pair and they fly them to your house in a special helicopter and set them up for you?
Don't I feel poor hemming and hawing over 800 dollar speakers.
I went as far as to contact a dealer for RBH and for $5400 I can get the 3 remaining pieces I need for a pair of SVTR towers. Now, I don't exactly have that laying around at the moment, but it puts it within reach for me if I sell some gear and/or save up for a bit.

image_large2 (1)-1.jpg
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
And just what are you itching for as you have some incredible audio equipment? Crazy subs from RBH.

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I am happy with the gear I have now and outside an opportunity to get a pair of SVTRs I don't have any plans on upgrading or switching anything out.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Nailed it. Yup. The passive SVTR towers are what I have my sights set on. They are within the grasp of us mere mortals and that awesome RBH sub has me 1/4 of the way there. Another one of those and a pair of SV-831Rs and I have my towers.

I went as far as to contact a dealer for RBH and for $5400 I can get the 3 remaining pieces I need for a pair of SVTR towers. Now, I don't exactly have that laying around at the moment, but it puts it within reach for me if I sell some gear and/or save up for a bit.

View attachment 49864
They are stunningly gorgeous speakers! 5400 is a lot but we've seen crazier.

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H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
I don't know why but I didn't give the Monoprice Monolith speakers much attention but I just checked them out. The THX line looks real nice. The THX-365 looks super nice and THX-265 does also. I don't like that they have "bouncy house" Atmos drivers in them though. They also have a 3-way center. I'm kinda intrigued here. Do I have tp use the bouncy house Atmos drivers? Can I just not use them at all? Man these speakers look great on paper. Youthman did a full review that I will watch in a little bit.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't know why but I didn't give the Monoprice Monolith speakers much attention but I just checked them out. The THX line looks real nice. The THX-365 looks super nice and THX-265 does also. I don't like that they have "bouncy house" Atmos drivers in them though. They also have a 3-way center. I'm kinda intrigued here. Do I have tp use the bouncy house Atmos drivers? Can I just not use them at all? Man these speakers look great on paper. Youthman did a full review that I will watch in a little bit.
No, you don't have to use the bouncy house drivers, BUT... if you have the right ceiling and the right placement those bouncy house speakers can actually work. Me personally it'd drive me nuts knowing there's a driver going to waste but I s'pose it's not a dealbreaker.

One other consideration is they don't dig real deep for a 3 way m-tm-m with 6.5" drivers and a f3 of 65 hz. That's not terrible if you have good subs, which you do, but is a consideration. I'm pretty sure it's intentional so they can earn that THX certification. I've taken a good look at Mono's speakers and given a choice I'd really like to take those 460Ts for a test drive.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
No, you don't have to use the bouncy house drivers, BUT... if you have the right ceiling and the right placement those bouncy house speakers can actually work. Me personally it'd drive me nuts knowing there's a driver going to waste but I s'pose it's not a dealbreaker.

One other consideration is they don't dig real deep for a 3 way m-tm-m with 6.5" drivers and a f3 of 65 hz. That's not terrible if you have good subs, which you do, but is a consideration. I'm pretty sure it's intentional so they can earn that THX certification. I've taken a good look at Mono's speakers and given a choice I'd really like to take those 460Ts for a test drive.

Agree on the driving me nuts not using the Atmos speaker at all. I wish they had 2 versions of each with the bouncy house speakers. I really, really do not like idea at all. I'm all over the map here anyway. Still looking, still deciding. Its all cool though. I like those mini towers which really are oversized bookshelf speakers.
 
S

stalag2005

Full Audioholic
IMHO SVS is worth looking at, especially if you order direct from them. They give first rate customer service, and have a 45 day trial and if you don't like them you can return no questions asked. They even have a scratch and dent version where they refurbish but sell of the older stuff they have on their site. I would go for the SVS if I was not invested in Paradigm speakers.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
IMHO SVS is worth looking at, especially if you order direct from them. They give first rate customer service, and have a 45 day trial and if you don't like them you can return no questions asked. They even have a scratch and dent version where they refurbish but sell of the older stuff they have on their site. I would go for the SVS if I was not invested in Paradigm speakers.
Oh yeah they are definitely on my list. I only buy from the outlet so I'll have to wait till they show up in there but haven't seen them lately. Used to see them much more often. I would have to get the Ultra center though and that will add to the overall cost by just a bit.

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Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
I think they finally had a review of their gear after I bought mine rig from Dennis. Stereophile did a review of one of the Towers with measurements by JA, and Amir did the B1 earlier this year iirc.
Just refreshing my memory on the tower, from a FR standpoint, there is elevated Bass and Treble while the entirety of the Mids is depressed. I didn't dig deep enough to see if they mention the Tweeter XO point, but the measured response is pretty jagged. *shrugs
That said, JA even wrote that while acknowledging the flaws, it's pretty easy to overlook them for the cost, cabinet resonance and all.
Amir left the head on the Panther, so for him and the B1 that's pretty high praise. :p

No, when it comes to the Speakers, I haven't seen anything strikingly off about their overall quality, but when you have a company like Emo that has a certain level of ADHD woven into the fabric of their culture, you really never know what you are going to get. For me, I see that manifesting in an abrupt redesign of their Airmotivs, or a hard cancellation of a product within that line, and then no way to get support. A blown Driver, if updated to a different model, will result in the same message others have gotten: "we no longer support that product and cannot repair or service it." (Not a direct quote, mind, but the gist of their responses to customers with gear they no longer support.)

Anyway, my biggest complaint about them was when I was shopping their gear, the deeper I dug into potentially spending thousands of dollars with them, the less their CS and Tech guys knew about their product. The inability to answer simple questions about Amplifier performance and other such questions is what ran me off. Then watching the slow-motion trainwreck of the RMC-1 which is still not fulfilling promised features only reinforced that I made the right decision.
there center channel is pretty popular on other forums . Bookshelves definitely got tweeter
Wow impressive sources you must have , that brands speakers are so cheap it’s tempting .
glad I didn’t have the cash to buy anything… I’ll listen to my Klipch until I find a job ….
 

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