YPAO Subwoofer trim levels

[Jonathan Galea]

I believe if his is like mine it depends on how he has them configured like left /right none or front to back or mono ! I run mine in stereo as i can independently control levels and peq for each independently need to know how he has these set .

I always set them as monoural.

 

[Jonathan Galea]

You can raise the gain more on the subs to lower the output level on the avr as you can see. The big bump in trim post-YPAO to get to 75dB still seems too much....what does it sound like without bumping trim levels up in avr after YPAO alone?

I'm fact the strange thing is that in post ypao while with the rest of the speakers i had to increase the trim level on the avr by just .5 to 1 db to get to 75 db on the spl meter in the case of the subs i had to increase a lot of dbs to get close to 75db.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm fact the strange thing is that in post ypao while with the rest of the speakers i had to increase the trim level on the avr by just .5 to 1 db to get to 75 db on the spl meter in the case of the subs i had to increase a lot of dbs to get close to 75db.

Yes I know, just trying to understand the why you need to do that. Then again YPAO isn't famous for the sub part of their eq OTOH. With your model avr can you separately adjust level/delay (distance) for each of the two sub pre-outs?

 

[Mark E. Long]

Yes I know, just trying to understand the why you need to do that. Then again YPAO isn't famous for the sub part of their eq OTOH. With your model avr can you separately adjust level/delay (distance) for each of the two sub pre-outs?

Yes you can do that . A - series avrs are set up the same way too it’s a neat feature to have if like to mess around with peq’s .

 

[Jonathan Galea]

I did some research on the internet and apparently with Yamaha it is a common thing that one needs to bump up the gain on the sub prior to run the YPAO. I also read that the type of difficulty that I was encountering is also common with digital subwoofers like I have. As all of you said ideally the level trim on the avr should be set in the negative preferably to the lowest figure (example -9) so that I can bump up the trim level to (-5) after running YPAO and still will remain on the negative. Regarding the rest of the speakers I had to go on the positive to get 75 db at reference level on the amp (volume set to 0) (not more than +2bB though). I intend to do the set up this way.
1. Reset the subwoofers LPF to O, switch off the sub LEO and switch off the sub EQ. Set volume to +7 (+10) being the maximum,
2. Run YPAO.
3. Set speakers to small with 80 Hz crossover.
4. Set the subs to left and right rather than to monoural
5. Using the trim level will set all speakers to 75dB. Re subs I will try to stay in the -5 region
6. I will do this twice since I have two rows and will save two different set ups on the amp since I can do that.

I will keep you posted too whether I will manage to reach my goal.

 

[Jonathan Galea]

I did some research on the internet and apparently with Yamaha it is a common thing that one needs to bump up the gain on the sub prior to run the YPAO. I also read that the type of difficulty that I was encountering is also common with digital subwoofers like I have. As all of you said ideally the level trim on the avr should be set in the negative preferably to the lowest figure (example -9) so that I can bump up the trim level to (-5) after running YPAO and still will remain on the negative. Regarding the rest of the speakers I had to go on the positive to get 75 db at reference level on the amp (volume set to 0) (not more than +2bB though). I intend to do the set up this way.
1. Reset the subwoofers LPF to O, switch off the sub LEO and switch off the sub EQ. Set volume to +7 (+10) being the maximum,
2. Run YPAO.
3. Set speakers to small with 80 Hz crossover.
4. Set the subs to left and right rather than to monoural
5. Using the trim level will set all speakers to 75dB. Re subs I will try to stay in the -5 region
6. I will do this twice since I have two rows and will save two different set ups on the amp since I can do that.

I will keep you posted too whether I will manage to reach my goal.

I did as described above. The result was that after the ypao calibration i manage to get the subs to -7db. To get near 75db on the spl meter I bumped up the trim level on avr to -3.5bd on each sub. At least I am not in the maximum positive to get the same spl 75bd! My question is since i read that it is ok to bump subs another 6 db can i bump up the subs levels to let say +2db on the avr trim level from my curent -3.5db?

 

[ryanosaur]

I would boost your sub gain, post-YPAO. Not your trim.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, positive trim requires the DSP to augment the original signal. This is easily the fastest way to introduce distortion into your system, and if you were to clip the amp with a distorted signal… #Poof-goes-the-Sub

Yes, this may be a little extreme, but the warning should stand, despite the hyperbole.

Gotta ask:
What is your whole system?
How loud do you listen?
How big is your room?

After all of this, something isn’t quite adding up, and either those MA Gold Subs are woefully underpowered, or you still have some other issues getting in the way of performance.

 

[Jonathan Galea]

I would boost your sub gain, post-YPAO. Not your trim.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, positive trim requires the DSP to augment the original signal. This is easily the fastest way to introduce distortion into your system, and if you were to clip the amp with a distorted signal… #Poof-goes-the-Sub

Yes, this may be a little extreme, but the warning should stand, despite the hyperbole.

Gotta ask:
What is your whole system?
How loud do you listen?
How big is your room?

After all of this, something isn’t quite adding up, and either those MA Gold Subs are woefully underpowered, or you still have some other issues getting in the way of performance.

Thank you for your advice. My whole system is Yamaha CXA 5100 processor, Monitor Audio Gold 300/ C350/ 4 Gold FX and 4 Monitor audio CT 256 IDC and 2 MA Gold W15. Re amps I have 4 parasound 2125v1 and 3 Denon POA s10 power amps in a dedicated HT (6 meters x 5 meters) acoustically treated.

Re boosting subwoofer gain I am already at +7 db. Considering that the maximum is +10dB should I bump more the gain from where it is currently set...

Regarding loudness we usually listen to movies in the region of -15DB. Re music, depending on the source sometimes I go to -10. I like deep bass though...
Thanks

 

[Mark E. Long]

Thank you for your advice. My whole system is Yamaha CXA 5100 processor, Monitor Audio Gold 300/ C350/ 4 Gold FX and 4 Monitor audio CT 256 IDC and 2 MA Gold W15. Re amps I have 4 parasound 2125v1 and 3 Denon POA s10 power amps in a dedicated HT (6 meters x 5 meters)
Re boosting subwoofer gain I am already at +7 db. Considering that the maximum is +10dB should I bump more the gain from where it is currently set...

Regarding loudness we usually listen to movies in the region of -15DB. Re music, depending on the source sometimes I go to -10. I like deep bass though...
Thanks

May I inquire what you have the peq set at on the preamp -Through or flat or another setting like Front or natural . Sounds like you are not where you want them to be yet what kind of specs do these subs have as Iam not familiar with them . Ryan won’t steer you wrong on this .

 

[ryanosaur]

Thank you for your advice. My whole system is Yamaha CXA 5100 processor, Monitor Audio Gold 300/ C350/ 4 Gold FX and 4 Monitor audio CT 256 IDC and 2 MA Gold W15. Re amps I have 4 parasound 2125v1 and 3 Denon POA s10 power amps in a dedicated HT (6 meters x 5 meters) acoustically treated.

Re boosting subwoofer gain I am already at +7 db. Considering that the maximum is +10dB should I bump more the gain from where it is currently set...

Regarding loudness we usually listen to movies in the region of -15DB. Re music, depending on the source sometimes I go to -10. I like deep bass though...
Thanks

My two thoughts on this situation:

If you haven't tried the Crawl yet, and your Subs are still in their original places, you may still be dealing with some acoustic issue which could be suppressing some of your Bass response (including the possibility of an over-treated room).

As much as I am a 'fan' of Monitor Audio, and know their Gold Subs have received higher praise than the norm for a Speaker Manufacturer (loosely translated, they are allegedly better quality than most Subs made by Speaker companies), they may well still be completely underpowered for your system. (Matching is all good and well, but the truth is that there are a lot of very good quality Subs that will easily outperform even the best produced by a non-specialized manufacturer (and yes, sadly, that will absolutely include MA).)

The prior, you can still experiment with, and it won't cost you anything but time and some sweat. The latter would mean buying new Subs (!!!Not suggesting this, per se, just being honest about the situation).

Just for perspective, most of us will have our Sub Gain turned down to about 25-35% it seems, and still land at a negative Trim in the AVR. For those that like more, they either build a house curve using PEQ or REW+MiniDSP, or we use D&M's DynamicEQ, or just boost the sub gain post-room-correction (as I mentioned to you above).

 

[ryanosaur]

Ryan won’t steer you wrong on this .

aw, shucks.

at least, i'll try my damnedest to not.

 

[Mark E. Long]

aw, shucks.

at least, i'll try my damnedest to not.

Most guys don’t realize the importance of good subs I didn’t till I watched and listened to you fellas on here I didn’t know what I was missing till I bought new subs .
I think good subs are right there with a good center channel speaker they always say the center plays 90 % of the soundtrack if so then the left over 10% better be either more and better subs in my book to get the most out of the system.
I’d say the op may head down this path to get what he’s after .

 

[ryanosaur]

Most guys don’t realize the importance of good subs I didn’t till I watched and listened to you fellas on here I didn’t know what I was missing till I bought new subs .
I think good subs are right there with a good center channel speaker they always say the center plays 90 % of the soundtrack if so then the left over 10% better be either more and better subs in my book to get the most out of the system.
I’d say the op may head down this path to get what he’s after .

Only our friendly neighborhood OP can answer that point for himself. I, for one, get it, though.
I've seen it happen where someone buys into the range of Speakers and wants the complete package. In fact, we had another friend here that did a full MA Silver setup, complete with Silver Subs. Unfortunately, I know for a fact the Silver Subs don't live up to the market for Internet Direct performance.
That said, I am loathe to be the guy that says, here, "you need new Subs." And so I won't.

It does seem our friend is most of the way there with what he has. My hope is we can get him to a happy place where his gear is functioning to the best of its ability, and do it without telling him he needs to spend more money. (Unless he wants to get a U-Mik 1 and learn to use REW... but that's pretty low hanging fruit, compared to replacing what was likely $4-5K in Subwoofage.)
That said, if it were Klipsch, Polk, ELAC, whatever... I'd have no compunction about recommending new Subs.

But I do respect the investment our friend made in MA Golds. They are excellent Speakers.

 

[Mark E. Long]

Only our friendly neighborhood OP can answer that point for himself. I, for one, get it, though.
I've seen it happen where someone buys into the range of Speakers and wants the complete package. In fact, we had another friend here that did a full MA Silver setup, complete with Silver Subs. Unfortunately, I know for a fact the Silver Subs don't live up to the market for Internet Direct performance.
That said, I am loathe to be the guy that says, here, "you need new Subs." And so I won't.

It does seem our friend is most of the way there with what he has. My hope is we can get him to a happy place where his gear is functioning to the best of its ability, and do it without telling him he needs to spend more money. (Unless he wants to get a U-Mik 1 and learn to use REW... but that's pretty low hanging fruit, compared to replacing what was likely $4-5K in Subwoofage.)
That said, if it were Klipsch, Polk, ELAC, whatever... I'd have no compunction about recommending new Subs.

But I do respect the investment our friend made in MA Golds. They are excellent Speakers.

Lol I here ya I’d don’t want to spend guys money either . Man I struggled for a long time before I bought new too I mean hell it’s an investment for sure but there really is a difference in performance that I didn’t buy into for a long time but ooh I now see the light . Indeed he’s got top notch gear and a nice room to boot sounds like he’s getting all he can get out of the subs he has . Man I tried for years to improve my old jbl subs till there was no improvement to be had .

 

[Jonathan Galea]

Lol I here ya I’d don’t want to spend guys money either . Man I struggled for a long time before I bought new too I mean hell it’s an investment for sure but there really is a difference in performance that I didn’t buy into for a long time but ooh I now see the light . Indeed he’s got top notch gear and a nice room to boot sounds like he’s getting all he can get out of the subs he has . Man I tried for years to improve my old jbl subs till there was no improvement to be had .

I appreciate your thoughts and i can understand why you suggest buying new subs. For me it is a bit difficult now to spend that money. I ordered a umik 1 and mini dsp 2x4hd that did not break the bank that perhaps should improve the situation with what i have. Hope that i will manage to set things up properly though...

 

[Mark E. Long]

I appreciate your thoughts and i can understand why you suggest buying new subs. For me it is a bit difficult now to spend that money. I ordered a umik 1 and mini dsp 2x4hd that did not break the bank that perhaps should improve the situation with what i have. Hope that i will manage to set things up properly though...

These are the fellas to ask for sure Iam about to venture into rew myself we can drive these guys nuts with questions . Please keep us posted on your findings and your thoughts on trying this out .