Need advice on an Integrated Amp to drive Dynaudio Heritage speakers

[kiett]

Hello,

I need advice on an under $2000-Integrated Amp to drive Dynaudio Heritage Speakers.

Thanks,

Kiet

 

[lovinthehd]

Why does it need to be an integrated amp particularly? What connectivity/features would be needed? Range of amp power/impedance handling?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello,

I need advice on an under $2000-Integrated Amp to drive Dynaudio Heritage Speakers.

Thanks,

Kiet

That will be tough. What are you going to use the system for, and how big is the room?

The speakers are 4 ohm, I did find an impedance curve and they are 4 ohm from 150 Hz to 300 Hz, and that is a good deal of the power band. They are insensitive though as that design of Dynaudio driver always has been historically. The sensitivity is 85 db 2.83 V 1 meter. That is low. I know from using those drivers in designs they take some muscle to drive them.

Integrated amps tend to be low power, and not like low impedance loads. An integrated amps that would drive those are going to be over your budget.

You may be better off with preamp and power amp. Most integrated amps are only 50 to 75 watt per channel power range on more often than not specked to 8 ohms only.

The best integrated amp is the Creek i20 Voyage. That is stable to 0.5 ohms. It is way over your price range, about triple.

You might get away with a Rotel, at 100 watts per channel. They are sold at Best Buy in select stores, not on line.

The Yamaha would be a good bet, but again over your price range.

Unfortunately you have bought a limited production high end speaker, that will need high end power. However, I suspect you could find a preamp and power amp for less money.

If you can go used, Creek power amps do come up on eBay. They have now restricted their offerings to that one very high end integrated amp. It will deliver 400 watts per channel into four ohms.

 

[Verdinut]

Unfortunately, there are not many options for new integrated stereo amps nowadays. Some are way out of your planned outlay.
You could have a look at the Yamaha A-S801 which is rated at 160 watts/ch with a 4 ohm load. Selling at only $899US at Amazon, it's within your budget.

My suggestion is that you should buy from a dealer to which you could return it should its performance not satisfy your needs. Keep in mind that the required amp output always depends on your listening distance from your speakers and the maximum SPL at which you will listen to your music.

 

[TankTop5]

What about the NAD C388?

 

[Verdinut]

What about the NAD C388?

The NAD C388 looks like a decent stereo integrated amplifier. IMO, there are no serious published test reviews on the product.

It might be a good alternate option to the Yamaha S801. If the OP could find a local store that sells the product, he would be in a better position to have an opinion after having heard the product on decent speakers. It sells for about double the price of the Yamaha, and the OP might not need that kind of power anyways. As indicated in my previous post, it all depends on the listening room size to some extent, but more on listening distance from speakers and SPL he wishes to listen to.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You could probably find a great used Yamaha A-S1200 for under $2K and A-S2200 for under $3K.

 

[PENG]

As usual, when such a question is asked, we tend to get all sorts of answers that include the reasonably conservative types (such as TLSGuy's), reasonably optimistic (ADTG) and the very optimistic types (Verdinut's). I could add to it by saying even the Creek Voyage i20 is not good enough because it is only rated 240 W into 4 ohms two channels driven. In that case, the Anthem STR integrated amp may be okay, but barely.

The fact is, it depends on your actual power requirement for you specific need. So again, I would suggest the OP use an online calculator to help figure our his need and perhaps factor in a 3 dB extra headroom, and go from there.

Peak SPL Calculator (homestead.com)
Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

For example, for 3 meter distance and desired maximum peak spl of 95 dB, you probably can get away with an amp rated 200 W into 4 ohms such that the ADTG recommended Yamaha A-S1100 or S-2200 will be adequate.

If the distance is further than say 4 meters and/or the desired maximum peak spl is 100 dB (reference level is 105 dB0, then a 400 W 4 ohm rated amp would be required, if clipping is to be avoided. In that case, then the OP should look to separates, i.e. preamp/power amp.

On the other extreme, for near field listening, say 3 meters to 8 ft, maximum peak spl desired <92 dB then suddenly even the little A-S801 (as Verdinut suggested) or any upper mid range 120 W into 8 ohm rated receivers could do the job nicely, though not advisable as the A-S801 integrated amps is not much more powerful than any D+M or Yamaha AVRs such as the RX-A2080.

 

[Verdinut]

The question is: Why would someone get involved with the complexity of setting up a surround AVR, when he could use a simple, easy to set up, stereo integrated amp?

 

[PENG]

The question is: Why would someone get involved with the complexity of setting up a surround AVR, when he could use a simple, eay to set up, stereo integrated amp?

I guess no one, unless there are some special reasons such as having one sitting around doing nothing. I mentioned the 2080 just to make the point that integrated amps such as the A-S801 is no more powerful than a beefy AVR such as the RX-A2080. And I am suggesting that the OP first determine how much power he would likely need in order to narrow down his choices, whether it be integrated amps or separates.

The 100 W 8 ohms rated A-S801 you suggested may in fact be viable for the Dynaudio Heritage Special (assuming that's what he has as I could not find any reference to Dynaudio Heritage) that could be used with 200 to 400 W or even higher amplifiers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, just in general, if I were EVER getting an integrated amp, it would have to look pretty cool with pretty analog meters.

There are exceptions (extremely LOUD volume from far distance or extremely difficult speakers). But for most people and cases, I doubt that power is going to be an issue.

Otherwise, I would just get an AVR like the RX-A2080 or A3080 - even if it is just for 2.0 stereo. You don't have to run auto room EQ or anything even if you have an AVR - you could just plug and play and pretend it's an integrated amp.

In fact, my living room is 2Ch stereo. And I use the RX-A3080 without using any YPAO room EQ.

But I know some people must have Integrated Amps or Stereo Receivers, which is all cool.

 

[Verdinut]

I guess no one, unless there are some special reasons such as having one sitting around doing nothing. I mentioned the 2080 just to make the point that integrated amps such as the A-S801 is no more powerful than a beefy AVR such as the RX-A2080. And I am suggesting that the OP first determine how much power he would likely need in order to narrow down his choices, whether it be integrated amps or separates.

The 100 W 8 ohms rated A-S801 you suggested may in fact be viable for the Dynaudio Heritage Special (assuming that's what he has as I could not find any reference to Dynaudio Heritage) that could be used with 200 to 400 W or even higher amplifiers.

Also of note is that the Yamaha A-S801 has a published maximum power of 160 watts/ch with a 4 ohm load which is , I understand, the impedance of the Dynaudios. That's only 4-5 dB less than a 400 watt amp. I'm assuming that the continuous power available at 4 ohms would be around 135-140 watts.

While being a lot cheaper than the A-S1100, the A-S801 also has more dynamic headroom: 170watts compared to 135 watts with a 4 ohm load. IMO, that should contribute to lower distortion on peak outputs.

A-S801 - Specs - Yamaha - Canada - English

With high sound quality ToP-ART circuitry and high stability construction, this integrated amplifier delivers superior musicality and powerful sound. And by incorporating advances like a USB DAC function, it fully supports the latest high resolution sound formats.

ca.yamaha.com

 

[PENG]

Also of note is that the Yamaha A-S801 has a published maximum power of 160 watts/ch with a 4 ohm load which is , I understand, the impedance of the Dynaudios. That's only 4-5 dB less than a 400 watt amp. I'm assuming that the continuous power available at 4 ohms would be around 135-140 watts.

While being a lot cheaper than the A-S1100, the A-S801 also has more dynamic headroom: 170watts compared to 135 watts with a 4 ohm load. IMO, that should contribute to lower distortion on peak outputs.

A-S801 - Specs - Yamaha - Canada - English

With high sound quality ToP-ART circuitry and high stability construction, this integrated amplifier delivers superior musicality and powerful sound. And by incorporating advances like a USB DAC function, it fully supports the latest high resolution sound formats.

ca.yamaha.com

That 160 W, 4 ohm rating is not the same as the normal 100 W 8 ohm rating. If you read the more detailed specs given in the manual instead of the website marketing info you will see that they are caveats:

AUDIO SECTION
• Minimum RMS output power (8 Ω, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.019% THD).................................100 W + 100 W
(6 Ω, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.038% THD) [Except for Asia model]............................................ 120 W + 120 W
• Dynamic power per channel (IHF) (8/6/4/2 Ω) ................................................................140/170/220/290 W
• Maximum power per channel [U.K. and Europe models only] (1 kHz, 0.7% THD, 4 Ω)...160 W

In addition to the much higher 0.7% THD, that indicates very close or at the knee/clipping onset point, and that it is applicable to the U.K. and Europe models only. At best, it is likely for a short duration, though longer than the 20 ms for the dynamic ratings.

It looks to me the A-S801 is to some extents, a glorified AVR, not a truly 4 ohm rating integrated amp but then again as I argue many times, that the so called 4 ohm rating is sort of a misnomer anyway in the sense that you can almost give any amp a 4 ohm rating as long as you spell out the conditions/caveats. As I said before, the A-S801 could well be a good solution for the OP, but it depends on his power requirement for his listening habits and environment.

Regarding the dynamic headroom specs, they look great but just keep in mind its likely for very short (20 ms) duration. 20 ms would cover peaks in music contents to some extent but not nearly enough.

What's the difference between Continuous RMS and Dynamic Power ? - Yamaha - United States

 

[PENG]

@Verdinut

You are quite right about the S801's 4 ohm capability based on Gene's bench tests.

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics

# of CH	Test Type	Power	Load	THD + N
2	CFP-BW	105 watts	8 ohms	.01%
2	CFP-BW	185 watts	4 ohms	.1%

That being said, if Gene did it like the AP video shows, the duration of such test would be just for a short duration using a continuous sine wave signal.

In the linked video below, skip to the 10:50 point, you can see that the test duration was less than 10 second.

Stereo Power Amplifier Test - Audio Precision (ap.com)

That would be fine for speakers with nominal impedance 8 ohms with dips to 4 ohm or less, but if the Dynaudio Heritage Special speakers are truly 4 ohm nominal as TLSGuy alluded to, then the likes of the A-S801 will not be enough to drive those speakers to their limits though again for the nth time, it could be enough or even more than enough if the OP don't listen very loud and sit close (near field).

 

[TLS Guy]

@Verdinut

You are quite right about the S801's 4 ohm capability based on Gene's bench tests.

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics

# of CH	Test Type	Power	Load	THD + N
2	CFP-BW	105 watts	8 ohms	.01%
2	CFP-BW	185 watts	4 ohms	.1%

That being said, if Gene did it like the AP video shows, the duration of such test would be just for a short duration using a continuous sine wave signal.

In the linked video below, skip to the 10:50 point, you can see that the test duration was less than 10 second.

Stereo Power Amplifier Test - Audio Precision (ap.com)

That would be fine for speakers with nominal impedance 8 ohms with dips to 4 ohm or less, but if the Dynaudio Heritage Special speakers are truly 4 ohm nominal as TLSGuy alluded to, then the likes of the A-S801 will not be enough to drive those speakers to their limits though again for the nth time, it could be enough or even more than enough if the OP don't listen very loud and sit close (near field).

That is why I recommended that Yamaha unit, but unless he buys a used one, it is over budget.

I have used those large VC Dynaudio drivers for many years, and like them. When the original owners split, Morel was founded and they had to share their patents. So Dynaudio and Morel make drivers with similar design principles. Those drivers handle gobs of power, but also seem to require it. For one driver in a small room 100 watts will keep them happy. The sweet spot for these drivers is really from 100 to 200 watts. Those drivers handle more power than any other domestic driver I know of in that size range. The VC, are larger than the majority of large woofers. The copper is pressed to an hexagonal structure prior to winding, which helps heat distribution.

 

[Verdinut]

@Verdinut

You are quite right about the S801's 4 ohm capability based on Gene's bench tests.

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics

# of CH	Test Type	Power	Load	THD + N
2	CFP-BW	105 watts	8 ohms	.01%
2	CFP-BW	185 watts	4 ohms	.1%

That being said, if Gene did it like the AP video shows, the duration of such test would be just for a short duration using a continuous sine wave signal.

In the linked video below, skip to the 10:50 point, you can see that the test duration was less than 10 second.

Stereo Power Amplifier Test - Audio Precision (ap.com)

That would be fine for speakers with nominal impedance 8 ohms with dips to 4 ohm or less, but if the Dynaudio Heritage Special speakers are truly 4 ohm nominal as TLSGuy alluded to, then the likes of the A-S801 will not be enough to drive those speakers to their limits though again for the nth time, it could be enough or even more than enough if the OP don't listen very loud and sit close (near field).

As I mentioned in one of the above posts, I was assuming that the continuous power rating at 4 ohms for the A-S801 would be around 135-140 watts/ch, since its rated power at 8 ohms is 100-105 watts/ch, but Gene reports 185 watts continuous with a THD + N below 0.01% with a 4 ohm load.

In Gene's report:
The CEA-2006 burst tests simulate musical program material to illustrate dynamic capabilities of the amplifier. The A-S801 produced 260wpc into 4 ohms with both channels driven and almost 300 watts with one channel drive. At 8 ohms, I measured 165 watts which would give this amp > 2dB of headroom.

The A-S801 produced respectable output on the continuous sweep tests. For 8 ohms, two channels driven, output was around 105 watts/channel and 185 watts/channel for 4 ohms under 0.01% THD+N (well below clipping).

Our test results validate Yamaha’s power specification for both channels driven and proved that it had plenty of reserves for dynamic power demands. It also demonstrated excellent stability with 4 ohm loads so don't be afraid to pair it with lower impedance speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sure like to see something more from the OP.... @kiett what's up?

 

[PENG]

As I mentioned in one of the above posts, I was assuming that the continuous power rating at 4 ohms for the A-S801 would be around 135-140 watts/ch, since its rated power at 8 ohms is 100-105 watts/ch, but Gene reports 185 watts continuous with a THD + N below 0.01% with a 4 ohm load.

Sorry but you are incorrect on this. I thought I have already explained the term "continuous" used in such context referred to the test signal being a continuous sine wave, as opposed to a narrow pulse signal. The duration of the test is only for a short duration, NOT "Continuous" You can PM Gene and I am sure he would tell you the same.

I also linked the AP video, in which you can see that their demo test for maximum output lasted only about 10 seconds at the most. It only takes you a minute to watch the part starting from about 10:40 so I hope you will watch it. Gene did the CFP-BW so that may last a little longer but again the meaning of continuous in those tests are not meant to be literally continuous.

By the way, why do you think Yamaha did not give that amp a 4 ohm rating at 0.1% THD or even 1% THD? Yes they did so in the marketing material, using a higher distortion but not in the owner's manual or the service manual at all. Without a real continuous test that last even just 20 minutes, the only assumption you can make, based on 100 W 8 Ohms, it will be 50 W for 4 ohms, not even you own estimated 135-140 W.

My guess is that they might have trouble clearing the bar set by the FTC that says:
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (eCFR)

"Rated power shall be obtainable at all frequencies within the rated power band without exceeding the rated maximum percentage of total harmonic distortion after input signals at said frequencies have been continuously applied at full rated power for not less than five (5) minutes at the amplifier's auxiliary input, or if not provided, at the phono input."

For North American models, Yamaha would likely have to comply with the minimum 5 minutes requirement and perhaps that's why they say the follow about the 4 ohm rating (that I quoted before):

Maximum power per channel [U.K. and Europe models only] (1 kHz, 0.7% THD, 4 Ω)...................................................... 160 W

So I guess my assumption is reasonable?

There is no way Yamaha or Gene could, or claim185 W continuous with THD+N below 0.01% with a 4 ohm load. In addition to interpreting "continuous" wrong you must have mixed up the decimal point too I guess? I provide the link to Gene's review, please take a look for yourself.

For an amp to be rated "continuous" 185 W, two channel driven, if you do the math, assuming efficiency to be as high as 70%, the VA rating of the transformer will have to be at least:

185X2/0.7 = 528.6 VA !! And that's if the load is a 4 ohm resistor. You will be lucky if the A-S801 has a 350 VA transformer (based on visual), and their 270 W power consumption figure. If I were to guess, that I wouldn't want to, it would likely be a 330 to 370 VA transformer.

An amp cannot output more than it takes in on "continuous" basis.

Below are just food for thought, if you want to estimate the 4 ohm output from the given 8 ohm output based on the all else being equal conditions, that is, distortion levels, test duration etc.:

We all know Ohm's law so for the same voltage the load current into 4 ohm = 2X the load current into an 8 ohm load or conversely, for the same current magnitude into a 4 ohm load as an 8 ohm load, the voltage has to be reduced by half. That is, voltage apply to a 4 ohm load = 0.5 X the voltage apply to an 8 ohm load in order to keep the current the same.

That means if the output devices of an amp are rated for the load current based on 8 ohm, then if that is the limit, then for the same current into a 4 ohm load, the output voltage will have to be halved, and power dissipated in the 4 ohm load (resistor) would be exactly half that dissipated into 8 ohm, based on the power formula, that power = voltage X current. That's simple EE theory and math, you can't dispute that.. The reason why bench tests done by S&V, Audioholics, ASR etc., typically show much higher output into 4 ohm than into 8 ohm even by entry level receivers is because of the test duration.

As I mentioned before, I wish manufacturers never started using the term "power" for amplifier output specs. Instead, should have do the right thing and stick with voltage and current. Likewise, they should have agreed on a standard, or definition for the term "continuous output". The way they have done it, are confusing consumers and perpetuating misconceptions, resulting in false comparisons/equivalencies.

 

[Verdinut]

Sorry but you are incorrect on this. I thought I have already explained the term "continuous" used in such context referred to the test signal being a continuous sine wave, as opposed to a narrow pulse signal. The duration of the test is only for a short duration, NOT "Continuous" You can PM Gene and I am sure he would tell you the same.

I also linked the AP video, in which you can see that their demo test for maximum output lasted only about 10 seconds at the most. It only takes you a minute to watch the part starting from about 10:40 so I hope you will watch it. Gene did the CFP-BW so that may last a little longer but again the meaning of continuous in those tests are not meant to be literally continuous.

By the way, why do you think Yamaha did not give that amp a 4 ohm rating at 0.1% THD or even 1% THD? Yes they did so in the marketing material, using a higher distortion but not in the owner's manual or the service manual at all. Without a real continuous test that last even just 20 minutes, the only assumption you can make, based on 100 W 8 Ohms, it will be 50 W for 4 ohms, not even you own estimated 135-140 W.

My guess is that they might have trouble clearing the bar set by the FTC that says:
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (eCFR)

"Rated power shall be obtainable at all frequencies within the rated power band without exceeding the rated maximum percentage of total harmonic distortion after input signals at said frequencies have been continuously applied at full rated power for not less than five (5) minutes at the amplifier's auxiliary input, or if not provided, at the phono input."

For North American models, Yamaha would likely have to comply with the minimum 5 minutes requirement and perhaps that's why they say the follow about the 4 ohm rating (that I quoted before):

Maximum power per channel [U.K. and Europe models only] (1 kHz, 0.7% THD, 4 Ω)...................................................... 160 W

So I guess my assumption is reasonable?

There is no way Yamaha or Gene could, or claim185 W continuous with THD+N below 0.01% with a 4 ohm load. In addition to interpreting "continuous" wrong you must have mixed up the decimal point too I guess? I provide the link to Gene's review, please take a look for yourself.

For an amp to be rated "continuous" 185 W, two channel driven, if you do the math, assuming efficiency to be as high as 70%, the VA rating of the transformer will have to be at least:

185X2/0.7 = 528.6 VA !! And that's if the load is a 4 ohm resistor. You will be lucky if the A-S801 has a 350 VA transformer (based on visual), and their 270 W power consumption figure. If I were to guess, that I wouldn't want to, it would likely be a 330 to 370 VA transformer.

An amp cannot output more than it takes in on "continuous" basis.

Below are just food for thought, if you want to estimate the 4 ohm output from the given 8 ohm output based on the all else being equal conditions, that is, distortion levels, test duration etc.:

We all know Ohm's law so for the same voltage the load current into 4 ohm = 2X the load current into an 8 ohm load or conversely, for the same current magnitude into a 4 ohm load as an 8 ohm load, the voltage has to be reduced by half. That is, voltage apply to a 4 ohm load = 0.5 X the voltage apply to an 8 ohm load in order to keep the current the same.

That means if the output devices of an amp are rated for the load current based on 8 ohm, then if that is the limit, then for the same current into a 4 ohm load, the output voltage will have to be halved, and power dissipated in the 4 ohm load (resistor) would be exactly half that dissipated into 8 ohm, based on the power formula, that power = voltage X current. That's simple EE theory and math, you can't dispute that.. The reason why bench tests done by S&V, Audioholics, ASR etc., typically show much higher output into 4 ohm than into 8 ohm even by entry level receivers is because of the test duration.

As I mentioned before, I wish manufacturers never started using the term "power" for amplifier output specs. Instead, should have do the right thing and stick with voltage and current. Likewise, they should have agreed on a standard, or definition for the term "continuous output". The way they have done it, are confusing consumers and perpetuating misconceptions, resulting in false comparisons/equivalencies.

I've just perused the owner's manual, and Yamaha does not quote a clear rated power rating for a 4 ohm load, as opposed to figures for 6 and 8 ohm test resistances.
This A-S801 is not properly designed to drive 4 ohm loudspeakers. However, some top of the line Denon and Marantz AVRs are.

So Gene's last paragraph would be inexact and misleading to some extent:
Our test results validate Yamaha’s power specification for both channels driven and proved that it had plenty of reserves for dynamic power demands. It also demonstrated excellent stability with 4 ohm loads so don't be afraid to pair it with lower impedance speakers.

 

[PENG]

I've just perused the owner's manual, and Yamaha does not quote a clear rated power rating for a 4 ohm load, as opposed to figures for 6 and 8 ohm test resistances.
This A-S801 is not properly designed to drive 4 ohm loudspeakers. However, some top of the line Denon and Marantz AVRs are.

So Gene's last paragraph would be inexact and misleading to some extent:
Our test results validate Yamaha’s power specification for both channels driven and proved that it had plenty of reserves for dynamic power demands. It also demonstrated excellent stability with 4 ohm loads so don't be afraid to pair it with lower impedance speakers.

It depends on how you look at it. In a way, just about any integrated amps can be paired with 4 ohm speakers as long as the owner knows their limits.

Take a look of an extreme example using the A-S801 being discussed, and the $8,000 Denon flag ship integrated amp, my favorite example that is rated only 50 W/100 W into 8/4 ohm. Which one would you think is more "properly designed" to drive 4 ohm speakers? Wouldn't the answer be: it depends, right?

A more practical example would be to compare something like the NAD C326 BEE, rated 50 W into 8 or 4 ohms, with the A-S801.

The 801 is, as you know rated 100 W into 8 ohms but not rated for 4 ohms, but we know based on ohm's law and the power formula, it could have been rated 50 W into 4 ohms without question. So if you think of the S801 as a 50 W 4 ohm rated integrated amp and use it with 4 ohm speakers on that basis there would be absolutely nothing wrong. Yamaha did not rate the amp for 4 ohm load, most likely for marketing reason. They know it won't look good if they say 100 W into 8 ohms, 80 W or even 100 W into 4 ohms. NAD apparently has no such concern..

It is interesting to note that the A-S1100 is rated 90 W into 8 ohms, 0.07% THD, that's a little less powerful than the A-S801, but it is officially rated 150 W into 4 ohms, also at 0.07% THD. Not surprisingly, it weighs almost twice as much as the A-S801, that is a clear sign of having a substantially larger power supply and beefier heatsinks.