Denon 3700 and Goldenear Triton 3's, should I amp?

[LtDanNewLegs]

Hey big brains, would appreciate your help here. I have a Denon 3700 and Goldenear Triton 3's. I do love the sound right now, but am always open to improvement.

The main reason I went with the 3700 is the ability to pre-out the L/R channel to a dedicated amp if you want, so I figured I'd ask here:

Should I? Would I notice anything significant? If so, any recommendations of amps?

I ask because I have been on this similar journey with headphones and my 58x Jubilees have gone through amp upgrades recently where I've been able to say "ooh, that sounds better" and am wondering if I would get the same reaction out of the Goldenears?

The rest of my setup is Paradigm Premier 600c centre channel, SVS PB 2000 SW, and Angstrom Suono surrounds x 4. It goes to an Epson HC 3800 projector (that is having a HORRIBLE time with HDMI handshaking...tried everything, 8K certified cable swap, in out swap, source swap, image device swap, even replaced the Denon and Epson 1 time each...having to resort to an HDM-AIO2 to fix that issue and hoping that will do it, but that's all another issue...sigh)

Help is appreciated, thanks!

 

[Pogre]

Short answer, you're not likely to notice any audible differences.

Longer answer, it depends. On how loud you listen, how far you sit from the speakers and how honest GoldenEar are with their specs. They publish 90 dB sensitivity, but then they also publish a fr down to 21 hz which I find difficult to believe. It may play down to 21 hz but I highly doubt it does it at any meaningful spl. You have a sub tho, so that makes it a moot point. I would subtract a couple of dB from that sensitivity spec tho, and figure 87 or 88 dB. This spl calculator is a neat tool for figuring out power needs.

Peak SPL Calculator

That won't be on the money for all speakers but will get you in the ballpark and gives you an idea of the relation between power and volume. The thing to keep in mind is once you have sufficient power, a separate more powerful amp won't make a difference aside from taking a little heat off your avr and offering a little more headroom. You will be able to play louder with less distortion, but for normal volumes that power just sits on reserve, completely unused until it's needed. Play with that calculator a little bit. I'll bet you're using less than 5 watts most of the time.

 

[PENG]

Whether an external amp will make a significant different for you or not depends on the power your need vs the power the Denon can supply on its own, and how much more can the external amp supply.

So a good starting point is to figure out your power need. You can use an online calculator such as the one Pogre linked, and post a screenshot of the results so others can see and respond accordingly. Your Trinton 3s are probably the ones that needs more juice, than the Paradigm center speaker, based on specs and some available measurements.

You said "I do love the sound right now....", that is a good sign, that you may not need an external power amp.

 

[LtDanNewLegs]

Short answer, you're not likely to notice any audible differences.

Longer answer, it depends. On how loud you listen, how far you sit from the speakers and how honest GoldenEar are with their specs. They publish 90 dB sensitivity, but then they also publish a fr down to 21 hz which I find difficult to believe. It may play down to 21 hz but I highly doubt it does it at any meaningful spl. You have a sub tho, so that makes it a moot point. I would subtract a couple of dB from that sensitivity spec tho, and figure 87 or 88 dB. This spl calculator is a neat tool for figuring out power needs.

Peak SPL Calculator

That won't be on the money for all speakers but will get you in the ballpark and gives you an idea of the relation between power and volume. The thing to keep in mind is once you have sufficient power, a separate more powerful amp won't make a difference aside from taking a little heat off your avr and offering a little more headroom. You will be able to play louder with less distortion, but for normal volumes that power just sits on reserve, completely unused until it's needed. Play with that calculator a little bit. I'll bet you're using less than 5 watts most of the time.

Thanks guys, yeah even when I put the SPL down to 87 I still get 100.5 for dB SPL, so I'm guessing the Denon is more than enough to drive them...was just wondering if I might possibly be able to get a better sound with an amp on the front speakers...where I was going with this is that I know I can drive my 58x jubilee headphones with my Samsung phone, but it sounds WAY better with my X-duoo tube amp at the same listening level. I was wondering if the same idea applies. More juice just brings up the level of sounds that normally wouldn't have been as noticeable at comfy listening ranges. Like a subtle triangle hit in a full orchestra, the phone wouldn't play that well but the tube amp would. does that make sense?

 

[lovinthehd]

Did the tube amp increase power to the headphones or was it more an impedance thing? Same idea doesn't really apply to a solid state amp and doubt your speakers are such a difficult load that an amp will make an audible difference to you. We've all been there to an extent with all that you "hear" about amps making such differences....personally I've not found that to be true particularly but you might get a bit more spl and a bit cleaner sound with more powerful amplification. If you're listening at 87 dB on the Denon's absolute volume scale, that's pretty dang loud, tho. I usually don't ask that much of an avr myself. Was that setup using Audyssey?

Oh, as to the last example you may not notice clipping on a tube amp as much as you might on a solid state amp.....

 

[Pogre]

More juice just brings up the level of sounds that normally wouldn't have been as noticeable at comfy listening ranges.

Yeah, it doesn't really work like that. The "more juice" just sits on reserve and goes unused until it's needed. It doesn't add anything at lower volumes, tho that does kinda depend on what one considers "lower volumes"... more on that below.

Couple of points tho, some tube amps do have different sonic characteristics or sound signatures, tho not necessarily accurate. You could think of it as pleasant sounding distortion, and some folks do prefer tube amps. Otoh well built and engineered solid state amps are by and large a lot more accurate with much less distortion. The goal being accuracy means they're designed to not impart any sonic characteristics or sound signature and when operated within spec and level matched will generally sound the same.

So unless you're hitting limits, which you may be flirting with if you listen as loud as it appears, it's not going to offer you anything new or improved sonically. However, 87 on the absolute scale is really fracking loud if you calibrated with Audyssey. Like, so loud as to be very uncomfortable and cause permanent hearing damage. At least it would be on my system. I don't know if they even make a tube amp that would be able to handle that much output.

 

[LtDanNewLegs]

Did the tube amp increase power to the headphones or was it more an impedance thing? Same idea doesn't really apply to a solid state amp and doubt your speakers are such a difficult load that an amp will make an audible difference to you. We've all been there to an extent with all that you "hear" about amps making such differences....personally I've not found that to be true particularly but you might get a bit more spl and a bit cleaner sound with more powerful amplification. If you're listening at 87 dB on the Denon's absolute volume scale, that's pretty dang loud, tho. I usually don't ask that much of an avr myself. Was that setup using Audyssey?

Oh, as to the last example you may not notice clipping on a tube amp as much as you might on a solid state amp.....

I listen to it loud, but not TERRIBLY loud...I like to just barely get to a level where my wife will say "does it have to be this loud" and I can still look at her in a way that says "yes, this is good, and you're fine", you know? Won't get any complaints from the neighbours. the 87 dB SPL is just the sensitivity setting I put in the calclulator that Pogre recommended. The sensitivity of the GE Triton 3's is actually 90, but like he recommended I dialed it down a shade and it still shows a very capable number come back.

I hear you though, and it's probably not going to make any sig difference if I go the Amp route.

 

[Pogre]

I listen to it loud, but not TERRIBLY loud...I like to just barely get to a level where my wife will say "does it have to be this loud" and I can still look at her in a way that says "yes, this is good, and you're fine", you know? Won't get any complaints from the neighbours. the 87 dB SPL is just the sensitivity setting I put in the calclulator that Pogre recommended. The sensitivity of the GE Triton 3's is actually 90, but like he recommended I dialed it down a shade and it still shows a very capable number come back.

I hear you though, and it's probably not going to make any sig difference if I go the Amp route.

Ohhh! I thought you were saying that's where your volume dial is on the absolute scale! Ha ha! That would pretty insanely loud, lol.

Yeah, I'd say you're prolly good with the Denon. A separate amp would take a little heat off of it, but I don't think you'll get a bump in performance from it. Now that doesn't mean don't ever get one either. Just know what to expect. I bought a big beefy amp just because I wanted one, and sometimes I can get a little silly with the volume myself. My avr does run a little cooler, but I didn't notice any audible difference.

 

[Cos]

As a former GE owner (t1s) the Denon is more that enough to drive the 3s, and I doubt you would notice much improvement going with external amps

I will say that the Paradigm is a solid center, but I don't believe is the best match for your mains.

 

[PENG]

I listen to it loud, but not TERRIBLY loud...I like to just barely get to a level where my wife will say "does it have to be this loud" and I can still look at her in a way that says "yes, this is good, and you're fine", you know? Won't get any complaints from the neighbours. the 87 dB SPL is just the sensitivity setting I put in the calclulator that Pogre recommended. The sensitivity of the GE Triton 3's is actually 90, but like he recommended I dialed it down a shade and it still shows a very capable number come back.

I hear you though, and it's probably not going to make any sig difference if I go the Amp route.

What is your highest volume setting when you listen loud? If it is anywhere near -10 or even -15 (assuming Audyssey did not set the level trims to more than a couple dB), I would suggest a 200/300 W amp regardless.

It would be good too if you don't mind posting a screenshot of the calculator so we can see the data entries that resulted in 100.5 dB.

 

[LtDanNewLegs]

What is your highest volume setting when you listen loud? If it is anywhere near 10 or even 15 (assuming Audyssey did not set the level trims to more than a couple dB), I would suggest a 200/300 W amp regardless.

It would be good too if you don't mind posting a screenshot of the calculator so we can see the data entries that resulted in 100.5 dB.

Honestly not that loud...usually around 70 with Denon's volume, but I don't know if that's a 0-100 rating.
here ya go

 

[lovinthehd]

Honestly not that loud...usually around 70 with Denon's volume, but I don't know if that's a 0-100 rating.
here ya go

AVR - Audio - Relative and Absolute Volume Ranges

support.denon.com

I prefer the reference range as many of us do for comparisons....

(you can set it to one or the other as you wish in the Denon)

 

[lovinthehd]

What is your highest volume setting when you listen loud? If it is anywhere near 10 or even 15 (assuming Audyssey did not set the level trims to more than a couple dB), I would suggest a 200/300 W amp regardless.

It would be good too if you don't mind posting a screenshot of the calculator so we can see the data entries that resulted in 100.5 dB.

Assume you meant -10 or -15 ?

 

[PENG]

Assume you meant -10 or -15 ?

Thanks, fixed.

 

[PENG]

Honestly not that loud...usually around 70 with Denon's volume, but I don't know if that's a 0-100 rating.
here ya go

70 is -10 in the relative scale that most experienced user would select.

You definitely should use an external fan to help the unit stay cool and live a long life.

A 300 W into 4 Ohms amp for the Trinton 3s should help. The specs say 8 Ohms but looking at the graphs they are more like 5 Ohm speakers.

The amp won't always make them sound better but if you listen to music that has a lot of high dynamics that may cause the little Denon to clip, you may notice a different with a high current amp.

 

[LtDanNewLegs]

AVR - Audio - Relative and Absolute Volume Ranges

support.denon.com

I prefer the reference range as many of us do for comparisons....

(you can set it to one or the other as you wish in the Denon)

Good to know, I may change that. Thanks

 

[LtDanNewLegs]

70 is -10 in the relative scale that most experienced user would select.

You definitely should use an external fan to help the unit stay cool and live a long life.

A 300 W into 4 Ohms amp for the Trinton 3s should help. The specs say 8 Ohms but looking at the graphs they are more like 5 Ohm speakers.

The amp won't always make them sound better but if you listen to music that has a lot of high dynamics that may cause the little Denon to clip, you may notice a different with a high current amp.

Thanks for that input! Had no idea the GE's weren't true 8 ohms. I bought them used so they didn't come with much. Any amp recommendations then?

 

[Pogre]

I usually recommend the Outlaw 2220 MonoBlock amps. Good power and decent price. 2 or 3 of these for the front stage will take some pressure off your avr and give you a li'l more headroom to avoid any dynamic peak clipping.

Model 2220

Mono? Mini? Micro? Magnificent? Whatever that M is, this is one UNREAL little single-channel amp. 200 Watts (conservatively!) into a 3-inch chassis with balanced input stage to offer Common Mode Rejection! MANUAL See Front Panel Huge See Rear Panel Huge

outlawaudio.com

 

[PENG]

Thanks for that input! Had no idea the GE's weren't true 8 ohms. I bought them used so they didn't come with much. Any amp recommendations then?

I am sure if you have read some reviews with measurements. Here is one:

Test Report: GoldenEar Technology Triton Three Speakers Page 3 | Sound & Vision (soundandvision.com)

"Minimum impedance is 3.4 ohms at 128 Hz with a phase angle of -31°; and the impedance runs below 5 ohms between 220 and 930 Hz. Impedance rises rapidly below 100 Hz as the signal is handed off to the internal amplifier. Still, using at least a decent midpriced receiver or amplifier rated into 4 ohms would be a good idea. Sensitivity (average of quasi-anechoic measurement from 300 Hz to 10 kHz at 1 meter at 0° with a 2.83 volts RMS signal) is 85.9 dB."

My recommendation of a 300 W power amp is based on:

- You seem to listen to relatively loud level as you do crank the volume to -10 that most of us on AH probably don't. Can you check the level trim settings for the LCR channels and report back just in case?

- From the screen shot, it shows the 100.5 dB is based on 2 speakers, but you also did not assume any room gain so I would call it even, that it would be 100.5 dB based on just 1 speaker per THX standard. The sensitivity you entered, 87 dB was still optimistic (as @Pogre, alluded to earlier on this point), as you can it was only 85.9 dB as measured.

So it is about the combination of relatively low impedance, not so benign phase angle characteristics, low ( relatively speaking) sensitivity, and most importantly the SPL you desired that appeared to be just a few dB below reference level.

A 300 W power amp such as the Anthem MCA225, Monolith 200W X3, or the Hypex NC502MP based Class D amp such as the NC502 and the Purifi 1ET400A should be good.

Note: @Cos knows those speakers well, he may think a good AVR can do the trick, but as far as I know he did use power amps to drive them.

Those 300 W rated power amps won't do much in terms of improve sound quality for you at listening levels below Volume -15 to -20 for you, but it might if you crank it to above -15 and the contents happen to have much higher than average dynamic. It also might succeed in convincing you brain/ears even if no actual difference are made.

Dynamic range of music various a lot depending on the genres, and the recording/mastering quality. Here's a good site for reference:

Album list - Dynamic Range Database (loudness-war.info)

By the way, Soundstagenetwork.com also reviewed a Trinton but its the newer version the 3+, the impedance curve also shows its more like a 5 Ohm nominal speaker:

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: GoldenEar Technology Triton Three+ Loudspeakers

 

[LtDanNewLegs]

Awesome guys, thanks for all your help there. I'll give that a good mental chew and see where I go in the future. I'll also look into setting the volume with the reference range you mentioned above.