2CH Room Correction Processors vs MCH

[lovinthehd]

But White Castle is far worse to the world of burgers than anything Audyssey or other REQ did to audio

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Watch Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle first if you do!

Wow. There’s a whole movie about this burger joint?

 

[lovinthehd]

Wow. There’s a whole movie about this burger joint?

LOL more about the destination being WC but does have a fantastic order when they get there Personally don't understand the fascination but maybe the WC I went to as a kid was especially bad or something

 

[PENG]

Yeah I think a little peak here and there doesn’t hurt. I probably like a little peak in both the bass and treble.

It seems REQ makes the sound less “lively” subjectively. And this is the case before I ever did any REW measurements. Apparently I don’t like the sound of a flat FR.

Well, if you ever get your hand on one that can use the Editor App, I guarantee you won't be disappointed and scream where's my bass!!

And then if you listen to certain Double Bass (attached) focused music, e.g. Patricia Barber's jazz, you will hear the difference between Audyssey On and Off. Again, the trick is, you have to use the App to remove the MRC, limit the EQ range to below 300 Hz only, and most importantly, shape the curve from below around 120-200 Hz to get the bass back (follow the Harman curve but make it steeper to your taste), but without the sharp peaks, slightly shallower dips, and better time aligned subs/mains. With REQ on, the bass notes from the Double Bass will be clearer, how much different would depend on how bad your room and speaker combinations.

Many users who don't use the App can just bump the sub trim level up by a few dB but the results won't be as good (may not be audibly worse), though for movies, especially the nuclear war types, it likely won't matter much either way.

 

[Trell]

LOL more about the destination being WC but does have a fantastic order when they get there Personally don't understand the fascination but maybe the WC I went to as a kid was especially bad or something

While WC makes you think of food, in Sweden we think of

 

[Pogre]

Wow. There’s a whole movie about this burger joint?

Wow, you've never seen Harold and Kumar?? You have some homework to do!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, if you ever get your hand on one that can use the Editor App, I guarantee you won't be disappointed and scream where's my bass!!

And then if you listen to certain Double Bass (attached) focused music, e.g. Patricia Barber's jazz, you will hear the difference between Audyssey On and Off. Again, the trick is, you have to use the App to remove the MRC, limit the EQ range to below 300 Hz only, and most importantly, shape the curve from below around 120-200 Hz to get the bass back (follow the Harman curve but make it steeper to your taste), but without the sharp peaks, slightly shallower dips, and better time aligned subs/mains. With REQ on, the bass notes from the Double Bass will be clearer, how much different would depend on how bad your room and speaker combinations.

Many users who don't use the App can just bump the sub trim level up by a few dB but the results won't be as good (may not be audibly worse), though for movies, especially the nuclear war types, it likely won't matter much either way.

I think those days of chasing after the sound is over for me - after many years of doing that.

I do agree it is all about the bass EQ, not about flatlining the FR. Some like flat, some like more. It’s about the sound we love, not how flat it looks on REW.

With DM, I know how much I absolutely love Audyssey Bypass L/R + DEQ and +5dB Trims for all speakers.

With Yamaha, I absolutely love Manual PEQ +3dB from 40-100Hz.

As you say, after we’ve found our magic sound, there’s no point wasting any money chasing after some other EQ just because someone says it’s great for them.

Been there, done that several hundred thousand dollars ago.

These days it’s all about finding more great movies and TV shows.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wow, you've never seen Harold and Kumar?? You have some homework to do!

I am not into comedies anymore. I used to love comedies (Seinfeld) when I was younger. But somewhere after college, I changed. These days, no comedies or animations.

 

[Pogre]

I think those days of chasing after the sound is over for me - after many years of doing that.

I do agree it is all about the bass EQ, not about flatlining the FR. Some like flat, some like more. It’s about the sound we love, not how flat it looks on REW.

With DM, I know how much I absolutely love Audyssey Bypass L/R + DEQ and +5dB Trims for all speakers.

With Yamaha, I absolutely love Manual PEQ +3dB from 40-100Hz.

As you say, after we’ve found our magic sound, there’s no point wasting any money chasing after some other EQ just because someone says it’s great for them.

Been there, done that several hundred thousand dollars ago.

These days it’s all about finding more great movies and TV shows.

I don't really like flat either, but if you start with flat, a room curve is super easy. Especially if you have Audyssey DEQ and/or some tuning options on your subs like I do.

 

[cpp]

Well if an external EQ works, then why not use it. Hell its only audio and not freaking heart surgery. If it doesn't work , just send it back.

 

[panteragstk]

Yeah my daughter and her friends and cousins eat at Taco Bell all the time. No way I’m eating there. If I’m eating fast food Mexican, it’s gotta be at least Taco Bueno.

Too bad you guys don't have Rosa's in OK yet. I don't have them down where I'm at either. You'd never eat at Taco Bell or Taco Bueno again. They seem to be creeping out towards us both so maybe someday. I'd open a franchise but the huge $200k-600k is a bit of a big price range.

Anyway, back to EQ

 

[PENG]

I think those days of chasing after the sound is over for me - after many years of doing that.

I do agree it is all about the bass EQ, not about flatlining the FR. Some like flat, some like more. It’s about the sound we love, not how flat it looks on REW.

With DM, I know how much I absolutely love Audyssey Bypass L/R + DEQ and +5dB Trims for all speakers.

With Yamaha, I absolutely love Manual PEQ +3dB from 40-100Hz.

As you say, after we’ve found our magic sound, there’s no point wasting any money chasing after some other EQ just because someone says it’s great for them.

Been there, done that several hundred thousand dollars ago.

These days it’s all about finding more great movies and TV shows.

Fully agreed, just thought it may be worth repeating the issue and fixes so new Denon/Marantz users know what to try if they found their bass/dynamic punches disappeared, or got worse after running Audyssey/auto setup.

In my opinion, D+M should cover the Audyssey's flat curve potential issues (some may prefer though I am sure the majority don't) in the Owner's manuals. They are not doing themselves any favor by ignoring this fact, that most people prefer the "Harman curve".

I think Dr. Toole summed it up well here:
(PDF) The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems (researchgate.net)

You can see why I suggested D+M/Audyssey users to use the App so they can get the "All listeners" curve, like me and Pogre might have.

For "Untrained listeners", the Audyssey Off curce may be just fine, depending on the room/speaker/placement combinations.

 

[Eppie]

In my initial setup I preferred Pure Direct for music but I think part of the issue is that my AVR is 10 years old running an early version of Audessey and only measures from a single position. Since getting a matching centre speaker and a proper subwoofer things have improved, especially in the lower frequencies, but early Audessey seems to fall short in some areas. The response curve on the mains sounds better after rerunning Audessey when compared to Pure Direct now, but it sounds like I have some funky phase issues with 5 channel audio. Imaging just sounds weird sometimes. It's a challenging room as speaker placement is far from ideal and I only have a 7 foot ceiling, with duct work making that even lower in front of my mains. I'm putting up with it for now until I can get a Umik mic and REW as I feel that experimenting with Audessey's manual settings is just going to be trial and error and I'd rather be listening to music.

We've been talking about upgrading the system in the living room, which is a nice rectangular room, so my best bet is to move the current AVR up there where the old Audessey should work much better, and get a new AVR with current software for room EQ in the more challenging room. If I had a better shaped HT room I could probably live without auto room EQ and just apply some treatments, but this room is far from ideal and makes a good argument for having auto room EQ available.

 

[Pogre]

In my initial setup I preferred Pure Direct for music but I think part of the issue is that my AVR is 10 years old running an early version of Audessey and only measures from a single position. Since getting a matching centre speaker and a proper subwoofer things have improved, especially in the lower frequencies, but early Audessey seems to fall short in some areas. The response curve on the mains sounds better after rerunning Audessey when compared to Pure Direct now, but it sounds like I have some funky phase issues with 5 channel audio. Imaging just sounds weird sometimes. It's a challenging room as speaker placement is far from ideal and I only have a 7 foot ceiling, with duct work making that even lower in front of my mains. I'm putting up with it for now until I can get a Umik mic and REW as I feel that experimenting with Audessey's manual settings is just going to be trial and error and I'd rather be listening to music.

We've been talking about upgrading the system in the living room, which is a nice rectangular room, so my best bet is to move the current AVR up there where the old Audessey should work much better, and get a new AVR with current software for room EQ in the more challenging room. If I had a better shaped HT room I could probably live without auto room EQ and just apply some treatments, but this room is far from ideal and makes a good argument for having auto room EQ available.

5 channel audio? Do you mean 5 channel or all channels stereo? If that's how you listen to music there would be no centre image. In fact that's exactly why I don't use all channel or 5 channel stereo. Though I do have to admit that lately Dolby 5.1 has been sounding pretty good to me, but that's not the same as 5 channel stereo.

 

[Eppie]

5 channel audio? Do you mean 5 channel or all channels stereo? If that's how you listen to music there would be no centre image. In fact that's exactly why I don't use all channel or 5 channel stereo. Though I do have to admit that lately Dolby 5.1 has been sounding pretty good to me, but that's not the same as 5 channel stereo.

Music is usually 2-channel although sometimes I'll use simulated 5-channel if it fits the recording. The phase issues are to be expected on simulated surround but on regular TV and Netflix the back channels seem odd at times and the centre image doesn't always seem stable. I suspect that the speaker distances measured by Audessey are off so I'm tempted to get out the old tape measure and set them manually, but that won't take into account the nasty reflections I get in this room. I swear sometimes when I walk down the hallway the overall balance of the sound seems better than when I'm sitting in the MLP. Rather frustrating at times since I know these speakers can do better.

 

[Pogre]

Music is usually 2-channel although sometimes I'll use simulated 5-channel if it fits the recording. The phase issues are to be expected on simulated surround but on regular TV and Netflix the back channels seem odd at times and the centre image doesn't always seem stable. I suspect that the speaker distances measured by Audessey are off so I'm tempted to get out the old tape measure and set them manually, but that won't take into account the nasty reflections I get in this room. I swear sometimes when I walk down the hallway the overall balance of the sound seems better than when I'm sitting in the MLP. Rather frustrating at times since I know these speakers can do better.

Again, you say 5 channel for some music and I don't know if you mean Dolby up mixing or straight up all channel/5 channel stereo. Those all channel modes are just noise to me. No soundstage, image all over the place. Just messy, imo. Now recently I'm finding Dolby upmixing to 5.1 preserves that center image, and center spread preserves or even expands the soundstage. I never, ever listen in all channel/5 channel stereo. I could see it for maybe a party or something, but for regular listening I think it sounds like a mess.

You don't have a center channel, do you? I've found that playing with distance and level settings can move the center image one way or the other when not using a center speaker so you could try experimenting with that. Now all that said, I do believe you can realize better results with an updated receiver equipped MultEQ XT32. Get the $20 app and I don't think one even needs a MiniDSP, tho I would still recommend a calibrated mic so you can make informed adjustments.

Denon 36-3700 or Marantz SR6014-6015 would be right in the sweet spot.

 

[Eppie]

Again, you say 5 channel for some music and I don't know if you mean Dolby up mixing or straight up all channel/5 channel stereo. Those all channel modes are just noise to me. No soundstage, image all over the place. Just messy, imo. Now recently I'm finding Dolby upmixing to 5.1 preserves that center image, and center spread preserves or even expands the soundstage. I never, ever listen in all channel/5 channel stereo. I could see it for maybe a party or something, but for regular listening I think it sounds like a mess.

You don't have a center channel, do you? I've found that playing with distance and level settings can move the center image one way or the other when not using a center speaker so you could try experimenting with that. Now all that said, I do believe you can realize better results with an updated receiver equipped MultEQ XT32. Get the $20 app and I don't think one even needs a MiniDSP, tho I would still recommend a calibrated mic so you can make informed adjustments.

Denon 36-3700 or Marantz SR6014-6015 would be right in the sweet spot.

Being an older AVR the Dolby upmixing is not as sophisticated as what the new receivers can do but it's not simply 5-channel stereo. On some recordings the sound stage widens and some elements are distinctly in the centre or L/R main while others will sound like they are coming from the side. The rears are not timber matched but the effect can be fun. I do have the matching centre which is great for movie dialogue but I'm not fond of when the AVR mixes music into the centre channel. There is a movie mode and music mode where the music mode lowers the centre channel so that it's not as predominant. I think I'll do a little more research into the various surround modes and see exactly what the AVR is doing.

Even on 2-channel audio last night though the tonal balance and imaging just felt off at times. Wish I could put my finger on it or borrow someone else's ears. I played a digital remaster of Yes - Close to the Edge as well as a more modern U2 - Achtung Baby. Now that the bottom is evened out nicely with the SVS I can't seem to get the highs and imaging quite right.

 

[Pogre]

Being an older AVR the Dolby upmixing is not as sophisticated as what the new receivers can do but it's not simply 5-channel stereo. On some recordings the sound stage widens and some elements are distinctly in the centre or L/R main while others will sound like they are coming from the side. The rears are not timber matched but the effect can be fun. I do have the matching centre which is great for movie dialogue but I'm not fond of when the AVR mixes music into the centre channel. There is a movie mode and music mode where the music mode lowers the centre channel so that it's not as predominant. I think I'll do a little more research into the various surround modes and see exactly what the AVR is doing.

Even on 2-channel audio last night though the tonal balance and imaging just felt off at times. Wish I could put my finger on it or borrow someone else's ears. I played a digital remaster of Yes - Close to the Edge as well as a more modern U2 - Achtung Baby. Now that the bottom is evened out nicely with the SVS I can't seem to get the highs and imaging quite right.

Yeah, I'd have to be there to truly understand what you're getting at, tho it does sound like source could be part of it. I think I know you well enough now that you probably already considered that tho.

Like I said, I'm able to move my center image by playing with levels and distance so you could try that. A new avr with more modern codecs, dsp options and room correction certainly wouldn't hurt! It sounds like you're long overdue for an update anyway!

 

[Eppie]

Yeah, I'd have to be there to truly understand what you're getting at, tho it does sound like source could be part of it. I think I know you well enough now that you probably already considered that tho.

Like I said, I'm able to move my center image by playing with levels and distance so you could try that. A new avr with more modern codecs, dsp options and room correction certainly wouldn't hurt! It sounds like you're long overdue for an update anyway!

I did finally get around to ordering a Umik-1 and I can install REW while I wait for it to arrive. It will be nice to find out whether this is just my personal impression or there is something bad with the room acoustics. I'll post that in another topic. Time to read some tutorials on REW.

 

[Trell]

I did finally get around to ordering a Umik-1 and I can install REW while I wait for it to arrive. It will be nice to find out whether this is just my personal impression or there is something bad with the room acoustics. I'll post that in another topic. Time to read some tutorials on REW.

Down the rabbit hole you go