Where's are all the Stereo Pre-Amp's relative to all these Power Amps?

[MalVeauX]

Hi all,

I'm always shopping around, like everyone else probably, just looking at things. For home theater, the receiver is simply indispensable and pre-amp output with dedicated amplifiers for channels can be had and it makes sense. However, when it comes to just standard 2 channel audio for music listening, I'm at a loss for options. There are plenty of options for a simple to robust DAC, and there are lots of options for good power amps out there, from affordable to ludicrous but there are plenty of available options. But, there seems to be a hole, at least for me, when it comes to the stereo pre-amp. There are stereo pre-amps out there, but it seems to be a high-end thing now? Can't seem to find anything interesting that isn't basically $1k or more. I can't seem to find anything in the $250~500 range (pre-amp, non-receiver), especially with a remote. The closest thing I've found that is affordable or budget friendly is basically a receiver with pre-amp out, but it's quite costly considering what it is in this case, unless using it to also drive the speakers (which defeats the point of getting a pre-amp).

Where are the pre-amps at?
Any non-big box internet direct potions that I'm just not aware of?

For background, here is a setup I'm currently using. This is for 2 channel audio as I prefer that for music listening.

DAC: Maverick TubeMagic D2 (solid state & tube pre-amp output stages, work simultaneously; source is USB usually)
Integrated amplifier: Emotiva Mini-X A-100 50 watt @ 8ohm
Speakers: Philharmonic AA+ Monitors (latest version)
Impression: Sounds great, very articulate, neutral, detailed, but not sterile. I enjoy this a lot.
Notes: I do splice in a sub and manage it manually, but I don't always run the sub.

I've tested the same speakers on an Onkyo SR-333 receiver in Direct and it sounds ok, but man, it definitely changes the sound. It drops the treble significantly and seems to have a veil over the mids. It doesn't sound great. Maybe the unit is so entry budget level, but my DAC/AMP setup mentioned above kills it. And it's not just placebo. I used my UMIK1 and measured it with REW and it's pretty obvious and measures wildly differently.

The only amp \ pre-amp I have currently is a Little Dot Mk III (LDMKIII). I have used this as a pre-amp in in the past for speakers on a power amp and it was good, warm, works well. Also of course functions as a headphone amplifier (which I no longer use it for). I could use this. But it's not something I'm compelled to do.

So I'm thinking about getting a more powerful amplifier and a pair of towers. I actually find I prefer two good tower speakers instead of bookshelf and sub. I like the simplicity and elegance of two channel with no sub. There are lots of power amp options in that 150 watt to 275 watt range that are pretty affordable for what they are. But, if I use my DAC, I have no way to control the volume. So I would need a pre-amp with control, right? It's that or I would have to find a high powered integrated amp, which I'm not finding much of anyways.

That's what spawned me thinking out loud... where are the pre-amps out there?

Mean while, I started looking at a Marantz Slim NR1200, but its a receiver. I don't need its video capabilities. It has pre-amp out for stereo and subs. I like that option. But it's $650 just to be used as a pre-amp with a remote basically. Just seems excessive since I wouldn't be using the video nor its internal amplifier (75 watts 2 channel at 8ohm). So I started looking for pre-amp options that were just stereo and not a receiver and basically couldn't find anything amazing for this task. I found the Schiit Saga+. There's the Parasound Zpre3. There's the Pro-Ject Pre Box DS2. And the Yamaha WXC-50 seems to fit the bill.

So that said, knowing I have the LDMKIII that can function as a pre-amp, the only two that make sense to me are the ZPre3 and WXC-50 for cost as a pre-amp to a power amp. No remotes unfortunately.

Any thoughts?

Very best,

 

[lovinthehd]

Just tagging along to see what you find. I can't say I've seen much for 2ch pre-amps for a while, once in a great while on craigslist perhaps. I still have a few of my 2ch pre-amps but only have one hooked up to some active speakers in a spare bedroom; they don't provide for sub integration but I have a minidsp I could use if I ever get around to putting a sub in there (they both have tape/processor loops). If I had to do 2ch over again I'd probably find a dac with a coupla inputs with a volume control and just hook up a power amp to it.

 

[MalVeauX]

Just tagging along to see what you find. I can't say I've seen much for 2ch pre-amps for a while, once in a great while on craigslist perhaps. I still have a few of my 2ch pre-amps but only have one hooked up to some active speakers in a spare bedroom; they don't provide for sub integration but I have a minidsp I could use if I ever get around to putting a sub in there (they both have tape/processor loops). If I had to do 2ch over again I'd probably find a dac with a coupla inputs with a volume control and just hook up a power amp to it.

Thanks,

Yea, that's the thing, it seems there's really not pre-amp much anymore. I get why, digital age and all, but there are not a lot of DACs with volume control acting as a pre-amp either. It really just leaves receivers to do this job. Ideally yea, I'd be fine with a DAC with pre-amp output and a volume knob. But even those are not all that common, let alone not very pricey.

I'm finding more pre-amps from headphone stuff than speaker stuff. I realize it works for both. But these little $50 nobsound or whatever looking things are pretty hokey looking and can't possibly be great for speakers at that price point. But I'm having a hard time finding much else other than what I lined above in the $300~650 range.

The Yamaha WXC-50 seems to be the closest one to fit the bill so far. Has pre-amp out, sub out, and lots of inputs. Still needs a DAC or other source to feed it a signal for USB source, which is fine.

So then of course, I wonder, why get a $300~500 pre-amp when I can get something like the Marantz NR1200 and have room correction, bass management, can drive speakers on its own, pre-amp output, remote, etc, could take HDMI in or whatever, despite not needing it. Would be more universally useful. I guess I just don't like the idea of a receiver for the job, versus a specific discreet pre-amp since I already have a dedicated DAC for all this that I like. Just need a way to nicely take signal from my DAC to a power amp and control the volume. So, maybe I already have it in my Little Dot Mk III (just sucks because if I don't want tube warmth added to it, I would need something similar but solid state). I need to test this and measure it to see if it really is using the tubes for that or not (I have no idea of its actual internal circuitry for the pre-amp section).

Very best,

 

[Verdinut]

Thanks,

Yea, that's the thing, it seems there's really not pre-amp much anymore. I get why, digital age and all, but there are not a lot of DACs with volume control acting as a pre-amp either. It really just leaves receivers to do this job. Ideally yea, I'd be fine with a DAC with pre-amp output and a volume knob. But even those are not all that common, let alone not very pricey.

I'm finding more pre-amps from headphone stuff than speaker stuff. I realize it works for both. But these little $50 nobsound or whatever looking things are pretty hokey looking and can't possibly be great for speakers at that price point. But I'm having a hard time finding much else other than what I lined above in the $300~650 range.

The Yamaha WXC-50 seems to be the closest one to fit the bill so far. Has pre-amp out, sub out, and lots of inputs. Still needs a DAC or other source to feed it a signal for USB source, which is fine.

So then of course, I wonder, why get a $300~500 pre-amp when I can get something like the Marantz NR1200 and have room correction, bass management, can drive speakers on its own, pre-amp output, remote, etc, could take HDMI in or whatever, despite not needing it. Would be more universally useful. I guess I just don't like the idea of a receiver for the job, versus a specific discreet pre-amp since I already have a dedicated DAC for all this that I like. Just need a way to nicely take signal from my DAC to a power amp and control the volume. So, maybe I already have it in my Little Dot Mk III (just sucks because if I don't want tube warmth added to it, I would need something similar but solid state). I need to test this and measure it to see if it really is using the tubes for that or not (I have no idea of its actual internal circuitry for the pre-amp section).

Very best,

Should you still be interested in spending up to $500 on a preamp, here is an interesting used Rotel product on eBay. It looks in excellent aesthetic condition and seems to have been well taken care of by the seller. There are several other products listed on eBay as well.

Rotel RC-1070 stereo preamplifier with phono stage,remote,Excellent condition | eBay

Condition is "Used". Working great and was pulled from my secondary system due to upgrade. It has connection for two tape decks,so there is a total of six inputs;there is two RCA outputs so you can use it for by-amping.

www.ebay.com

 

[Verdinut]

Should you still interested in spending up to $500 on a preamp, here is an interesting used Rotel product on eBay. It looks in excellent aesthetic condition and seems to have been well taken care of by the seller. There are several other products listed on eBay as well.

Rotel RC-1070 stereo preamplifier with phono stage,remote,Excellent condition | eBay

Condition is "Used". Working great and was pulled from my secondary system due to upgrade. It has connection for two tape decks,so there is a total of six inputs;there is two RCA outputs so you can use it for by-amping.

www.ebay.com

I was perusing the specs on this Rotel preamp. It indicates on output of 1 volt which may be insufficient to drive some power amps. Before committing to buying it, I would inquire with Rotel to get full facts on its output capacity.

 

[PENG]

Thanks,

Yea, that's the thing, it seems there's really not pre-amp much anymore. I get why, digital age and all, but there are not a lot of DACs with volume control acting as a pre-amp either. It really just leaves receivers to do this job. Ideally yea, I'd be fine with a DAC with pre-amp output and a volume knob. But even those are not all that common, let alone not very pricey.

I'm finding more pre-amps from headphone stuff than speaker stuff. I realize it works for both. But these little $50 nobsound or whatever looking things are pretty hokey looking and can't possibly be great for speakers at that price point. But I'm having a hard time finding much else other than what I lined above in the $300~650 range.

The Yamaha WXC-50 seems to be the closest one to fit the bill so far. Has pre-amp out, sub out, and lots of inputs. Still needs a DAC or other source to feed it a signal for USB source, which is fine.

You seem to be talking about prepro in the beginning and now just preamp?

Also there are no shortages of DAC that has very effective volume controls. Out of my 9 dacs(gave 2 away), only two don't have volume control.

Take a look of SMSL and Topping, and Schiit's etc., and you won't be disappointed, unless you are really talking about prepro. If prepro, what kind of processing do you need?

 

[MalVeauX]

Oh lord, I meant pre-amp, sorry, sigh, lol. Not pre-pro. I'll try to fix that.

Very best,

 

[MalVeauX]

You seem to be talking about prepro in the beginning and now just preamp?

Also there are no shortages of DAC that has very effective volume controls. Out of my 9 dacs(gave 2 away), only two don't have volume control.

Take a look of SMSL and Topping, and Schiit's etc., and you won't be disappointed, unless you are really talking about prepro. If prepro, what kind of processing do you need?

Good point, I have a DAC and like it, but maybe looking for another DAC that basically is a pre-amp as well will solve this with less stuff.

Very best,

 

[Leemix]

No sub management on the Rotel if you needed that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[TLS Guy]

Good point, I have a DAC and like it, but maybe looking for another DAC that basically is a pre-amp as well will solve this with less stuff.

Very best,

If you don't want a pre/pro, the best thing is to look for a vintage preamp. I use Quad preamps, for my turntables as there are no preamps that handle vinyl like vintage Quads. The Quad 34 and especially the Quad 44 are excellent bets. You don't have to worry about service. Quad gear is so well regarded that there are many outfits world wide that offer repair and total restoration of vintage Quad units. The only problem is that they are snapped up right away and prices have been skyrocketing of late, and fetching prices I would never have thought possible.

I suspect one of the issues driving this is, that like you point out there is an absolute dearth of good two channel audio preamps. So supply and demand is making the price of really good units go through the roof. Quad is particularly sought after because of their functionality and extreme reliability. What is really required is a replacement for Peter Walker! That said, we absolutely need to regain his ethics and outlook. That is the only way out of the mess we are in.

I really have no experience of receivers, so can't comment. But I can not argue against what you say. I can say that the analog performance of the pre/pros I have is excellent and they test well. However head room could be better. So you have to set gains carefully. Personally I would expect a receiver to present problems. The whole concept of the current crop is absolutely absurd. I'm not at all surprised they blow up with the frequency they do. I would expect it.

By the way you can easily manage a sub with Y-connectors and an external crossover to the sub. I have done that and it works superbly.

 

[oupee]

A quality preamplifier with quality volume control has a much better sound than a DAC with digital control. Just this week I had one borrowed and I was surprised by the sound via the preamplifier and my DAC (two ES9038Q2M I mean 32bit volume control) with the volume control turned off. For CDs the differences are minimal but there are, for hires tracks the difference is big.

 

[Mikado463]

again, one other option is to locate a good used line stage (pre-amp without a phono-pre built in) assuming you have no vinyl interest. Might save you a little $$
Myself, I'm a fan of ARC and if you come across a nice used SP-9 mk2 it's worthy of a look IMO .....

ARCDB

The Audio Research Database (ARCDB) provides information about past and present products from ARC (Audio Research Corporation)

www.arcdb.ws

 

[MalVeauX]

Thanks,

I may have to look for something used/vintage for sure.

I do like the idea of a simple pre-amp with analog volume control.

Very best,

 

[PENG]

Thanks,

I may have to look for something used/vintage for sure.

I do like the idea of a simple pre-amp with analog volume control.

Very best,

Hard to go wrong with something like these, to match their specs and bench performance and have analog volume control you probably have to pay more than 10X, even then, I am not sure:

I have a few preamps including two vintage ones with analog volume control (one being Marantz), you will likely have to service it (if the owner has not done it in recent years) as those volume control tend to get really noisy especially if hardly used (like mine). I think with the advance in extremely high quality op amp ICs nowadays, electronic volume controls are now far superior in general.

Amazon.com: Topping L30 Linear Headphone Amplifier NFCA 3500mWx3500mW HiFi Stereo Home Audio Amplifier Desktop Preamplifier (Black,New Version): Home Audio & Theater

Amazon.com: TOPPING A90 Headphone Amplifier 4.4mm XLR Desktop HiFi Full Balanced Amplifier Pre-Amplifier (Silver): Home Audio & Theater

Amazon.com: Topping Ext90 Input Extender 3 x XLR Stereo Inputs 1x RCA Input for Pre90 D90 D90MQA DAC Decoder (Black): Home Audio & Theater

For a very high quality DAC that has excellent volume control:
Amazon.com: S.M.S.L SU-9 MQA Full Decoder ES9038PRO DAC XMOS DSD512 PCM768kHz/32Bit Bluetooth 5.0 UAT APTX-HD USB Balanced Decoder: Home Audio & Theater

For bench measurements:
Topping A90 Headphone Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Topping L30 Headphone Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
SMSL SU-9 Balanced DAC Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

[KEW]

You have some good options presented above!
.
However, I also wanted to verify that the Yamaha WXC-50 you mentioned in your original post is a good option.
I have the very similar WMA-50 and really enjoy it in a little 2.1 system I put together.
The one thing I wish for would be a way to high pass the mains, but the speakers I am using in this setup do not seem to do anything obnoxious with low bass input - at least at the volume levels I listen

 

[Irvrobinson]

Almost no one I know has a dedicated 2.0 or 2.x stereo system for music listening anymore, besides a few of you virtual guys on this forum. Everyone I know has switched to HT systems which they occasionally play music on with only the L/R speakers and subs. I'm the only dinosaur left in my circle. I think that says a lot about why stereo pre-amps are becoming nearly unavailable. Knowing that I'm a dinosaur, and that a couple of decades ago I had been known to like Mark Levinson equipment back when Madrigal owned them, a friend just sent me a link to this pre-amp, thinking it's a bargain. So I thought of this thread. He still has vinyl, which I wouldn't be caught dead with (he's also into McIntosh stuff, but that's neither here nor there), but if you have $10K for a pre-amp, at least it looks good:

Mark Levinson - No 526 Preamplifier **B-STOCK**

The world's largest online retailer of high-end audio, audiophile music, and accessories. We specialize in vinyl records and turntables.

www.musicdirect.com

 

[MalVeauX]

You have some good options presented above!
.
However, I also wanted to verify that the Yamaha WXC-50 you mentioned in your original post is a good option.
I have the very similar WMA-50 and really enjoy it in a little 2.1 system I put together.
The one thing I wish for would be a way to high pass the mains, but the speakers I am using in this setup do not seem to do anything obnoxious with low bass input - at least at the volume levels I listen

I'm curious too, I've never really looked at these 'streamer' options, like the Yamaha WXC-50 vs XMW-50. Not sure what's truly different about these, from the point of view of just using it as a pre-amp to something more powerful and has sub-out for bass management options which is a big plus (would love to avoid high level connections for subs, just gets messy, lots of cables, etc).

Very best,

 

[MalVeauX]

Almost no one I know has a dedicated 2.0 or 2.x stereo system for music listening anymore, besides a few of you virtual guys on this forum. Everyone I know has switched to HT systems which they occasionally play music on with only the L/R speakers and subs. I'm the only dinosaur left in my circle. I think that says a lot about why stereo pre-amps are becoming nearly unavailable. Knowing that I'm a dinosaur, and that a couple of decades ago I had been known to like Mark Levinson equipment back when Madrigal owned them, a friend just sent me a link to this pre-amp, thinking it's a bargain. So I thought of this thread. He still has vinyl, which I wouldn't be caught dead with (he's also into McIntosh stuff, but that's neither here nor there), but if you have $10K for a pre-amp, at least it looks good:

Mark Levinson - No 526 Preamplifier **B-STOCK**

The world's largest online retailer of high-end audio, audiophile music, and accessories. We specialize in vinyl records and turntables.

www.musicdirect.com

Thanks,

Lots of people still do dedicated 2 channel. Maybe just not around here? Surround is more popular for lots of good reasons sure. Personally I don't mix them that often. My home theater is not a dedicated music room at the same time. I often like to have my 2 channel setup for music in my office, so I can read and navigate the web while listening. I think anyone who has a vinyl setup probably has a 2 channel setup in general. Sure, people do use their home theater setup for audio in just play their mains probably. But again, not everyone has just one audio setup.

I'm not into vinyl strictly because of the lack of convenience. I did it a while, but ultimately I like to have less foot print of storage for that stuff. In theory I like the idea of it, and I had an analog setup for a while. But after migrating to having a server that can house all my ripped audio in lossless container since storage space is so inexpensive, I prefer the convenience of it and can share it everywhere on my network at the house and outside my house in a radius. I don't care to collect thins for sake of collecting, just takes up space and I don't want to have to move a few hundred vinyl records later in life!

And I'm not into brand names for the sake of brand names, I'm open to whatever and generally these days I'm very happy to find an internet direct source to avoid big box names and stuff to get something higher quality at good value, rather than pay for the marketing.

Very best,

 

[MalVeauX]

Hard to go wrong with something like these, to match their specs and bench performance and have analog volume control you probably have to pay more than 10X, even then, I am not sure:

I have a few preamps including two vintage ones with analog volume control (one being Marantz), you will likely have to service it (if the owner has not done it in recent years) as those volume control tend to get really noisy especially if hardly used (like mine). I think with the advance in extremely high quality op amp ICs nowadays, electronic volume controls are now far superior in general.

Amazon.com: Topping L30 Linear Headphone Amplifier NFCA 3500mWx3500mW HiFi Stereo Home Audio Amplifier Desktop Preamplifier (Black,New Version): Home Audio & Theater

Amazon.com: TOPPING A90 Headphone Amplifier 4.4mm XLR Desktop HiFi Full Balanced Amplifier Pre-Amplifier (Silver): Home Audio & Theater

Amazon.com: Topping Ext90 Input Extender 3 x XLR Stereo Inputs 1x RCA Input for Pre90 D90 D90MQA DAC Decoder (Black): Home Audio & Theater

For a very high quality DAC that has excellent volume control:
Amazon.com: S.M.S.L SU-9 MQA Full Decoder ES9038PRO DAC XMOS DSD512 PCM768kHz/32Bit Bluetooth 5.0 UAT APTX-HD USB Balanced Decoder: Home Audio & Theater

For bench measurements:
Topping A90 Headphone Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Topping L30 Headphone Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
SMSL SU-9 Balanced DAC Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Thanks,

Looks like lots of DAC options out there, starting to explore this, with pre-amp characteristic. Which also leads to just normal integrated amps, including headphone amps, which act as pre-amps too for other systems. I have one already so I might explore this first before buying another. I have plenty of DACs but only one pre-amp capable smaller device (Little Dot MK III). I have some integrated amps that would work for this maybe, but they're in use for speakers, so don't want to rip them out for pre-amp use just yet.

Very best,

 

[nbk13nw]

I'm curious too, I've never really looked at these 'streamer' options, like the Yamaha WXC-50 vs XMW-50. Not sure what's truly different about these, from the point of view of just using it as a pre-amp to something more powerful and has sub-out for bass management options which is a big plus (would love to avoid high level connections for subs, just gets messy, lots of cables, etc).

Very best,

The WXA-50 has an amp built in. 55 per channel into 8ohms.... 105 per channel into 4ohms. Seems to have the same feature set in each.

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk