Speaker cable thought

[aceinc]

Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.

These are some of the things I think I know. I am not an EE.

The half baked idea part;

Would it make sense to combine two/four large gauge wires with a number of smaller gauge wires to form a single speaker cable?

For example a four conductor 14 gauge with a 28 gauge CAT 6. The cable would be terminated with 2 of the 4 conductor wires and 4 of the 8 conductor wires on each "plug."

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor. I just finished watching Gene's video

as well as Paul McGowan's video

.

In Gene's video he says the sound differences are imperceptible but marginally measurable. Paul said bigger is better for low frequencies, which I imagine Gene would agree with. I think it would be interesting to use Gene's test gear to test my idea, but I haven't got $10's of thousands of laying about for test gear.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.

 

[lovinthehd]

This could be interesting but

 

[Verdinut]

Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.

These are some of the things I think I know. I am not an EE.

The half baked idea part;

Would it make sense to combine two/four large gauge wires with a number of smaller gauge wires to form a single speaker cable?

For example a four conductor 14 gauge with a 28 gauge CAT 6. The cable would be terminated with 2 of the 4 conductor wires and 4 of the 8 conductor wires on each "plug."

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor. I just finished watching Gene's video

as well as Paul McGowan's video

.

In Gene's video he says the sound differences are imperceptible but marginally measurable. Paul said bigger is better for low frequencies, which I imagine Gene would agree with. I think it would be interesting to use Gene's test gear to test my idea, but I haven't got $10's of thousands of laying about for test gear.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.

Just have a read of the following link:

Speaker Wire

 

[TLS Guy]

Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.

These are some of the things I think I know. I am not an EE.

The half baked idea part;

Would it make sense to combine two/four large gauge wires with a number of smaller gauge wires to form a single speaker cable?

For example a four conductor 14 gauge with a 28 gauge CAT 6. The cable would be terminated with 2 of the 4 conductor wires and 4 of the 8 conductor wires on each "plug."

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor. I just finished watching Gene's video

as well as Paul McGowan's video

.

In Gene's video he says the sound differences are imperceptible but marginally measurable. Paul said bigger is better for low frequencies, which I imagine Gene would agree with. I think it would be interesting to use Gene's test gear to test my idea, but I haven't got $10's of thousands of laying about for test gear.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.

You think too much! It will all act as one conductor of the total same gauge. The capacitances will sum, the resistances, and inductances of each cable will sum as their reciprocals.

 

[Speedskater]

Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.

Wrong

Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.

Wrong

Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.

Maybe, but with modern amplifiers, capacitance doesn't matter.

 

[Gmoney]

I'm thinking umm a nice house plant in between one or both of your L/R mains will Decrease early reflections.

 

[aceinc]

Wrong

Wrong

Maybe, but with modern amplifiers, capacitance doesn't matter.

Perhaps I should be a little more detailed;

Multiple smaller gauge insulated wires will work better than one larger gauge wire with the same effective cross section at higher frequencies due to skin effect.

While it is interesting you believe what I stated is incorrect, it does nothing to illuminate me or anyone else who thinks as I do by just saying I am wrong.

 

[Movie2099]

Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.

These are some of the things I think I know. I am not an EE.

The half baked idea part;

Would it make sense to combine two/four large gauge wires with a number of smaller gauge wires to form a single speaker cable?

For example a four conductor 14 gauge with a 28 gauge CAT 6. The cable would be terminated with 2 of the 4 conductor wires and 4 of the 8 conductor wires on each "plug."

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor. I just finished watching Gene's video

as well as Paul McGowan's video

.

In Gene's video he says the sound differences are imperceptible but marginally measurable. Paul said bigger is better for low frequencies, which I imagine Gene would agree with. I think it would be interesting to use Gene's test gear to test my idea, but I haven't got $10's of thousands of laying about for test gear.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.

Stop overthinking this and go purchase all AudioQuest cables. No more thinking will happen once you have everything AudioQuest. All of your HDMI's, RCA's, Balanced, and speaker cable. Who cares what the cost is. If it gives you piece of mind knowing you have the best most top rated cables on the market. It will be totally worth it!

 

[Pogre]

Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.

These are some of the things I think I know. I am not an EE.

The half baked idea part;

Would it make sense to combine two/four large gauge wires with a number of smaller gauge wires to form a single speaker cable?

For example a four conductor 14 gauge with a 28 gauge CAT 6. The cable would be terminated with 2 of the 4 conductor wires and 4 of the 8 conductor wires on each "plug."

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor. I just finished watching Gene's video

as well as Paul McGowan's video

.

In Gene's video he says the sound differences are imperceptible but marginally measurable. Paul said bigger is better for low frequencies, which I imagine Gene would agree with. I think it would be interesting to use Gene's test gear to test my idea, but I haven't got $10's of thousands of laying about for test gear.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.

Gene and Paul from BS Audio in the same post about cables... hoo boy...

I like this article where gene calls Paul out on his BS better.

Is Synergy In Audio Cables Real or Snake Oil?

PS Audio recently announced a partnership with Audioquest cables citing that their products have a real "synergy" together. Is there any merit this synergistic effect claim or is it pure marketing BS?

www.audioholics.com

Love Paul's tap dance reply, answering questions without actually answering questions...

 

[Swerd]

Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.

You admitted that, "Not being an EE I have no clue". You got that part right, but all your thoughts on skin effect are wrong.

Skin effect, is a classic example of how audio salesmen take something that does actually exist, but exaggerate it's importance. It is not a significant problem at audio frequencies. Skin effect only begins to be a problem at frequencies much higher than anything in audio. At 20 kHz, skin depth is just barely beginning to be shallow, but not enough to be a problem. At 1 MHz, in the range of TV broadcast carrier wave frequencies, skin effect is significant. That's why TV antennae or cable TV signals can work with coaxial cables where the inner core wire is copper coated steel. Because of skin effect, it conducts signals in MHz range just as well as solid copper, but it can take high tension mountings without breaking.

The skin depth of copper falls according to the square root of frequency:

Skin effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Trell]

You admitted that, "Not being an EE I have no clue". You got that part right. Skin effect, is a classic example of how audio salesmen take something that does actually exist, but is not a significant problem in audio playback. Skin effect only begins to be a problem at frequencies much higher than anything in audio. In copper, The skin depth of copper falls according to the square root of frequency. At 20 kHz, skin depth is just barely beginning to be shallow, but not enough to be a problem. At 1 MHz, in the range of TV broadcast carrier wave frequencies, skin effect is significant. That's why TV antennae or cable TV signals can work with coaxial cables where the inner core wire is copper coated steel. Because of skin effect, it conducts signals in MHz range just as well as solid copper, but it can take high tension mountings without breaking.

View attachment 47486

Skin effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He passed the Dunning-Kruger test

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Perhaps I should be a little more detailed;

Multiple smaller gauge insulated wires will work better than one larger gauge wire with the same effective cross section at higher frequencies due to skin effect.

While it is interesting you believe what I stated is incorrect, it does nothing to illuminate me or anyone else who thinks as I do by just saying I am wrong.

I’ve seen a number of thing related to debunking skin effect and it’s audibility. Never once has it been shown to be a factor at all. It’s a spec that doesn’t matter in this context. I have no links as this has been beaten to death and nothing I’m concerned with.

I have a question though.
Theoretically speaking. How would changing the speaker cable going into the speaker change its behavior when the wires, pcb, caps and associated XO components inside remain the same?

 

[aceinc]

BTW, for all the people who throw rocks, every speaker cable in all of my systems are some form of 12 gauge zip cable with banana plugs on the ends. The purpose of this discussion is to become more knowledgeable, and not to take the statements by Gene, Paul, Danny (Ritchie) or anyone else as the gospel. I realize to some this is a religious argument, in which I consider myself an agnostic, and am willing to listen to all sides trying to understand what is the reality.

Gene's video shows there are differences, which he indicates are not audible, but there are differences. It would appear that skin effect starting at 10khz would have some impact on wires larger than ~24 gauge. I am Not suggesting whether this is audible or not, but I won't hide from the facts.

 

[aceinc]

I actually have a reason for trying to educate myself on speaker cables. I have a 25'x15' room with my equipment on one of the short walls. I have speaker wires run behind the baseboard parallel to each other to 4 jacks on the other end of the room. Considering these 12 awg wires run parallel for 30'-40' and they are unshielded and untwisted, I suspect there may be crosstalk between them.

I may have an opportunity during a future remodel to replace these cables, and I am trying to decide whether there is a better solution.

 

[Swerd]

I actually have a reason for trying to educate myself on speaker cables. I have a 25'x15' room with my equipment on one of the short walls. I have speaker wires run behind the baseboard parallel to each other to 4 jacks on the other end of the room. Considering these 12 awg wires run parallel for 30'-40' and they are unshielded and untwisted, I suspect there may be crosstalk between them.

I may have an opportunity during a future remodel to replace these cables, and I am trying to decide whether there is a better solution.

If you're concerned about improving sound quality in general, educate yourself on what features make an audible difference in loud speakers. Speakers are where the 'rubber hits the road'. All your efforts at learning more about speaker cables is wasting your time.

 

[Teetertotter?]

Is 2 conductor twisted pair, 99% pure copper, shielded and jacketed,........better than non twisted pair speaker wire w 99% pure copper wire and non shielded??

 

[Verdinut]

BTW, for all the people who throw rocks, every speaker cable in all of my systems are some form of 12 gauge zip cable with banana plugs on the ends. The purpose of this discussion is to become more knowledgeable, and not to take the statements by Gene, Paul, Danny (Ritchie) or anyone else as the gospel. I realize to some this is a religious argument, in which I consider myself an agnostic, and am willing to listen to all sides trying to understand what is the reality.

Gene's video shows there are differences, which he indicates are not audible, but there are differences. It would appear that skin effect starting at 10khz would have some impact on wires larger than ~24 gauge. I am Not suggesting whether this is audible or not, but I won't hide from the facts.

Skin effect is a non-issue in speaker wire in the audible frequency range:

Technical Article: Does Audio Cable Skin Effect Matter

Mod note: our technical expert @DonH56 wrote this series article a while back. As I get time, I am porting them here. Alternating current carriers in a conductor tend to travel near the surface. This happens due to opposing eddy currents from the magnetic field generated whenever alternating...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Speedskater]

Multiple smaller gauge insulated wires will work better than one larger gauge wire with the same effective cross section at higher frequencies due to skin effect.

Well in a word no.
While skin effect can be calculated, in reasonable speaker cables it's hard to measure. Why, because at high frequencies the cables end-to-end resistance and inductance are greater than the skin effect value. Any effort to reduce the skin-effect will increase the inductance and/or the resistance.

 

[Pogre]

BTW, for all the people who throw rocks, every speaker cable in all of my systems are some form of 12 gauge zip cable with banana plugs on the ends. The purpose of this discussion is to become more knowledgeable, and not to take the statements by Gene, Paul, Danny (Ritchie) or anyone else as the gospel. I realize to some this is a religious argument, in which I consider myself an agnostic, and am willing to listen to all sides trying to understand what is the reality.

Gene's video shows there are differences, which he indicates are not audible, but there are differences. It would appear that skin effect starting at 10khz would have some impact on wires larger than ~24 gauge. I am Not suggesting whether this is audible or not, but I won't hide from the facts.

*Pogre throws another rock

 

[aceinc]

*Pogre throws another rock

Beware of the crystalline nature of your own residence.