Can Audiophiles Embrace Science Over Religion For The Hobby To Have a Future?

[lovinthehd]

What, exactly, are people asking for? We already have Sonos/MusicCast/Heos, Bluetooth, AIrplay from a wide range of brands (major and less-known). What sources do they want to use?

I was thinking more along the lines of simpler solutions/broader platforms than these branded eco systems that don't play nice with each other's gear. Maybe something via WISA that's widely adapted by brands. More component and universal type gear....and not just for 2.0 playback but also multich for more friendly placement choices in various rooms.....

 

[Ringo]

I agree with the article in general but am perplexed to the references made in point 1 of vinyl being lofi and having less dynamic range than a CD. I'm confused because of the article below which states that LP has more dynamic range and a better spectral content than a CD; both of which contradicts that vinyl is lofi.

Dynamic Comparison of LPs vs CDs - Part 4 - page 2

Yes, you have heard all the arguments before, and you are probably sick and tired of it. LP vs digital is a "religious war" that has been played out by various audiophiles ever since the CD format Page 0

www.audioholics.com

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Vinyl may have its imperfections, but low fidelity it AIN'T. That's simply an insane claim. As explained in your article, from this very same site. Del Colliano has an irrational hatred of vinyl, for some reason. He seems to think every turntable should be thrown in the dumpster immediately. It's a fanatical, illogical point of view. I think he's a smart guy who makes many good points, but it's undermined by that glaring bias. Such as his utterly baffling claim that vinyl is "worse than poison" in terms of getting younger people into the audiophile realm. Kids like vinyl...duh. It's certainly not the Boomer crowd buying all those Billie Eilish LPs! Maybe a Technics bit him as a child, I dunno.

I'm still to this day puzzled by the either/or fanaticism between vinylphiles and digiphiles. In the article you posted the author even used the term "religious war". It's just more irrationality (as is religion itself in my opinion, but that's a different conversation entirely). Personally, for what it's worth, I love both and have invested a lot of time, energy, and money on both. Since I'm not wealthy, I afford this by being frugal in other ways, such as always making my own meals, almost never ordering takeout or hitting drive thrus. I've got two turntables, one specifically for headphone enjoyment. I've got a Roon server, with Qobuz, and multiple Raspberry Pi endpoints. I love it all!

Each format offers myriad things the other lacks. I'll take vinyl sound all day - done right, there's just something so magical and beguiling about it. And being able to play a 30-50+ year old historical artifact, and have it sound fantastic is incredible. And the thrill of the hunt - finding a great LP in a dollar bin when the lowest price in discogs is $20! I love vinyl! Yet digital sounds great, too. And has wonderful things like playlists and queues, track and album tagging, not having to kick the cat off one's lap every 20 minutes... I love digital! (I do NOT love MQA, which seems like little more than a very snake-oily proprietary money grab. No thanks.)

Why must we choose one camp or the other? Let's put the stupid tribalism away for good. If you choose one to the exclusion of the other, you're only cheating yourself. Same for speakers vs. headphones, for that matter. It's four great ways to listen to music: vinyl & speakers, digital & speakers, vinyl & headphones, digital & headphones. Why limit yourself??

 

[JengaHit]

Yeah I don't have anything against vinyl particularly. I still have mine and use it occasionally. Just the cost of entry compared to digital is kinda high for a decent setup, and the recordings cost more too (then there's the care and feeding ). I guess if it entices some who find it new and novel and non-digital that's a good thing but I'd rather see them spend more on better speakers first

Yeah, and it's not just the cost of the media itself. But where the hell do you store all those LPs? The cost to your house and living space can add up too.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, and it's not just the cost of the media itself. But where the hell do you store all those LPs? The cost to your house and living space can add up too.

LOL the furniture to hold 'em changed over the years, and in my last move that furniture finally fell apart, literally as we started up the stairs towards the moving truck (three large mdf cubby hole type record cabinets....apparently they had just been thru one move too many ). Now the most played, about 150 LPs, sits in a quarter-box thing I built and is in the living room, the rest are in the packing boxes I had to buy to complete my move....they're downstairs (so maybe another 650 down there?). My 7" 45s are also in a small half box I made and remain upstairs. The weight of lugging them around is a definite consideration

 

[mns3dhm]

This will all work itself out for better or worse. I am confident that digital music and streaming will eventually supplant all physical media. Anyone with a phone and a headset is already 'in the game' and that will eventually be nearly everyone. I can easily see a near future where a fast internet connection, a streaming subscription, and a pair of powered speakers are the defacto playback system for most audiophiles. Adding source components for sunset technologies like vinyl or CD to a system like that is simple. That way you can still ride the horse and buggy or fire up the model A if you want to.

 

[JengaHit]

Hmm, Del Colliano makes a lot of good points about snake oil and streaming. But I think the bigger problem with the audiophile press and marketing is audiophile snobbery. It underlies snake-oil appeal and creates a huge barrier to enlarging the consumer pool. For example, you can see this snobbery as the premise for the claim that a $5K interconnect or speaker cable must by definition be better than a pair of Blue Jeans cables or $35 Canare interconnects. And even though the audiophile press covers streaming, there's still the implicit bias that only an expensive streamer/DAC will suffice. Or you have manufacturers like Cambridge Audio that still don't support arguably the biggest music streaming service for the masses, Amazon Music. If you want to grow the industry, make affordable and simple solutions (wireless, for example) for the vast majority of millennials and genXers who must make do with multi-purpose living spaces, and, as Del Colliano says, might use streaming music, gaming, and home theater as gateways.

Del Colliano's point #3, about embracing rooms (making equipment part of interior design), might apply to a niche demographic of well-heeled upper-middle-class audiophiles. But this thinking is sort of like living in a bubble. Concentrating on this doesn't expand the pie or address the larger market of gateway millennials (or older empty nesters who are downsizing). They're streaming their music or movies in apartments or more modest abodes where construction and renovation simply is impractical or unaffordable (or the landlord simply won't allow it). The trick is to develop and market "lifestyle" products that indeed fit their real-world living circumstances but still deliver outstanding sound.

 

[jeffca]

So here is the answer: no, many, cannot.
A very large slice of audiophiles are at least ignorami verging on morons. They know nothing of science while they are surrounded by computers that they use every day in everything.
Being a musician that's worked with high-res digital as well as heard a good bit of it, that is the studio recording you are buying in hi-res.
If you love vinyl, you aren't an audiophile since it's not a true representation of the original recording. If you like myriad distortions and non-linearities, have at it. Do not try to tell me that it's high fidelity. It's not.
20 years ago, I recorded all of the David Bowie, Peter Gabriel and Robert Palmer 12" singles I'd accumulated into 24/96 files. Previously, they'd been on half-track RtR. While the reel sounded really good, the digital sounded exactly like th 12" singles. And, I mean, exactly.
Having bought the DB "Dance" album from HD Tracks, they sound even better than the 12" singles.
About 30 years ago, I bought the Mobile Fidelity release of "Sgt Pepper's". Around the 15th play, it developed a skip on "Eleanor Rigby". I never bought another vinyl album again and have never regretted not doing so.

 

[ryanosaur]

I think it's interesting that this thread has largely become a conversation about Vinyl. I couldn't care either way, but the big picture is lost on the microcosm of these very divisive arguments: "is vinyl HI-Fi?" or, "is vinyl Audiophile?" *shrugs

 

[Pogre]

Yeah, and it's not just the cost of the media itself. But where the hell do you store all those LPs? The cost to your house and living space can add up too.

LOL the furniture to hold 'em changed over the years, and in my last move that furniture finally fell apart, literally as we started up the stairs towards the moving truck (three large mdf cubby hole type record cabinets....apparently they had just been thru one move too many ). Now the most played, about 150 LPs, sits in a quarter-box thing I built and is in the living room, the rest are in the packing boxes I had to buy to complete my move....they're downstairs (so maybe another 650 down there?). My 7" 45s are also in a small half box I made and remain upstairs. The weight of lugging them around is a definite consideration

You just gotta know where to "shop"!

 

[lovinthehd]

I think it's interesting that this thread has largely become a conversation about Vinyl. I couldn't care either way, but the big picture is lost on the microcosm of these very divisive arguments: "is vinyl HI-Fi?" or, "is vinyl Audiophile?" *shrugs

But is vinyl a good way to attract new audiophiles?

 

[lovinthehd]

You just gotta know where to "shop"!

View attachment 47145

Ah yes, the ubiquitous milk crate. Useful for many things

 

[Eppie]

You just gotta know where to "shop"!

View attachment 47145

It was a real bitch when milk crates went to metric in Canada. LPs would no longer fit. We hold on to our imperial milk crates like gold bullion!

 

[Eppie]

But is vinyl a good way to attract new audiophiles?

Yes, simply because it's fun! I usually stream music out of convenience and because my digital library is larger, or I might want assorted music for a couple of hours. Flipping LPs becomes a chore then. Other times I like to hold the media in my hands, enjoy the art work and read liner notes on something bigger than a 6" screen. I watched Guttenberg's video today on viewer system photos for the under 30 crowd. A lot of those systems had turntables. The point being that there is room for both formats to attract people.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, simply because it's fun! I usually stream music out of convenience and because my digital library is larger, or I might want assorted music for a couple of hours. Flipping LPs becomes a chore then. Other times I like to hold the media in my hands, enjoy the art work and read liner notes on something bigger than a 6" screen. I watched Guttenberg's video today on viewer system photos for the under 30 crowd. A lot of those systems had turntables. The point being that there is room for both formats to attract people.

Yeah, never got the "fun" part particularly, more a PIA. Then I had no choice back then. Maybe I'd feel differently if all I used was very low bitrate mp3 or something. I can find more info/artwork with my pc than an album cover has but I don't use a 6" screen either Altho the album cover is definitely superior for rolling joints with.

Overall I just wonder what the actual numbers are of younger/new folk as to how many would agree about this "fun/interesting" aspect of vinyl.

 

[Pogre]

Altho the album cover is definitely superior for rolling joints with.

Especially the Cheech and Chong records that came with a giant rolling paper...

 

[lovinthehd]

Especially the Cheech and Chong records that came with a giant rolling paper...

My introduction to that album came with someone's rolling effort but we were too broke to buy very good or very much weed back then, so it was a less than stellar experience Mostly paper....

 

[3db]

I think it's interesting that this thread has largely become a conversation about Vinyl. I couldn't care either way, but the big picture is lost on the microcosm of these very divisive arguments: "is vinyl HI-Fi?" or, "is vinyl Audiophile?" *shrugs

Vinyl is vinyl and is there to be enjoyed. I dont care who likes it or dislikes it. I also belong in all camps except streaming and enjoy them all. I dont stream because I dont want to pay for a music subscription. If I want something new, I'll buy it.

If the idiot who wrote the article didnt include his stupid prejudicisms and innacuracies, then it wouldnt have turned in this direction. Blame it on me. I dont care. I will always say how it is without sugar coating it. The author of this article is a genuine twit!!

 

[Gmoney]

I think it's interesting that this thread has largely become a conversation about Vinyl. I couldn't care either way, but the big picture is lost on the microcosm of these very divisive arguments: "is vinyl HI-Fi?" or, "is vinyl Audiophile?" *shrugs

"is vinyl HI-FI" Sure Vinyl is Analog, if you have Hi-Res Mode than it's as close to Hi-Fi as any goldears could ask for.

 

[Gmoney]

It was a real bitch when milk crates went to metric in Canada. LPs would no longer fit. We hold on to our imperial milk crates like gold bullion!

Just how many Capitalist countries are in this world besides the United States? Capitalism I tell you. Why take a metric when you can I have a Gallon. Guess that's why the United States is the richest nation in the world cause We don't give a metrics.

 

[highfigh]

I was thinking more along the lines of simpler solutions/broader platforms than these branded eco systems that don't play nice with each other's gear. Maybe something via WISA that's widely adapted by brands. More component and universal type gear....and not just for 2.0 playback but also multich for more friendly placement choices in various rooms.....

Multichannel, simple and I'm assuming DIY (why would integrators be needed if it's so simple?) don't go together. Most people barely know what these are and do, I doubt they'll be installing their own and that's a really small company- I know stereo stores that do more business in a month.