harman/kardon HK 3490 Stereo Receiver Review

[Gmoney]

When I accidentally tripped over this thread/topic again, I thought I should try one more time even though I said I would move on before. This is to help avoid others getting mislead by your claim that Gene actually measured SINAD, when afaic he in fact measured SNR. Again, the two are not same, though related to certain extent. SINAD is the inverse of THD+N, that clearly is not the same as SNR.

You first claimed the following in your "original post":

"Yes. I assumed the measurement I quoted actually refers to SINAD, that is to the ratio (signal)/(noise +THD). This is consistent with the AES17 standard that was quoted for this "SNR" measurement, although the standard actually includes ALL distortion, not just harmonic distortion."
(2) harman/kardon HK 3490 Stereo Receiver Review | Page 7 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

and repeated in other posts as well such as post#129,131,133 and then 137 posting part of the AES17 standard.

You pasted a small part of the standard but not enough to show the difference between the two so I am pasting more below for those interested to see the difference.

Here's the link you provided:
STANDARDS AND (tu-berlin.de)
8.5 Total harmonic distortion and noise (THD + N)

NOTE The characteristic to be specified is the transfer characteristic and dynamic non-linearities in
the EUT. The results are indicative of anomalies in device behavior but may not be indicative of
audible performance.

Harmonic distortion and noise is the ratio of the output noise and distortion level to the output signal level.
Both levels shall include all harmonic, inharmonic and noise components. All components shall be included
because harmonics often alias above the folding frequency and often appear anywhere in the audio band.

8.5.1 Total harmonic distortion and noise versus frequency
The measurement should be conducted with a sine wave at – 1,0 dB FS and repeated with a sine wave at – 20
dB FS. The test signal present in the output should be removed by means of a standard notch filter and the
remaining signal bandwidth limited to the upper band-edge frequency or 20 kHz, whichever is lower. The
level of the filtered signal should be measured and reported as a ratio to the unfiltered signal level. The
measurement should be repeated at each octave frequency from 20 Hz to one-half the upper band-edge
frequency. Since you mentioned "..in the presence of signal...", I included the sections that I believe are relevant to the discussion.

9 Signal-to-noise measurement

9.3 Signal-to-noise ratio or noise in the presence of signal
NOTE The characteristic to be specified is the ratio of the full-scale amplitude to the weighted r.m.s.
noise and distortion, expressed in decibels, in the presence of signal. It includes all harmonic,
inharmonic, and noise components. It is identical to a measurement of noise in the presence of signal.

The test signal for the measurement shall be a 997-Hz sine wave producing – 60 dB FS at the output of the
EUT. Any 997-Hz test signal present in the output shall be removed by means of a standard notch filter. The
remaining noise shall be filtered with the standard weighting filter. The measurement shall be limited in
bandwidth to the upper band-edge frequency or 20 kHz, whichever is lower. The resulting measurement shall
be read as dB FS and reported as dB FS CCIR-R.M.S.

Anyone who spent time to read carefully would know THD+N and SNR are defined differently. It seems that you are fixated on the words in Section 9.3 where it says "It includes all harmonic, inharmonic, and noise components...." and ignore or neglected the part "It is identical to a measurement of noise in the presence of signal."

The fact is, when you measure the noise, any harmonics included (from distortions) would be very low (I think you mentioned that too) because there is either no signal being applied, or as per the AES17 standard, at -60 dBFS level, so the amp isn't amplifying anything or just a small signal, and then when you applied the "full-scale amplitude" signal, the contribution of the distortions to the max voltage would be naturally low. With SINAD/THD+N, the output signal is removed, so the measured distortions would matter a lot obviously.

Aside from the above, I would like to clarify my point that Gene's graph made reference to AES17, but I believe that merely reference the weighting or bandpass limit filters (if used) for the measurements would be in accordance with that standard, and it does not necessarily mean he following the Section 9 of the standard. My educated guess is that he likely follow the AP procedure as that's the instrument he used and trained on. And in this case he did mention, "no weighting".

Below is from the AP website:
Signal-to-noise Ratio (SNR), Dynamic Range, and Noise - Audio Precision (ap.com)

"In a conventional SNR measurement a device is first stimulated with a signal at full scale with its volume control set to maximum, if present. A level measurement is made to establish the maximum output reference. The stimulus tone is then removed and the inputs of the device are either terminated or shorted. The residual noise is then measured. The SNR value is then the ratio of the full scale output level of the device to the residual noise level of a device."

More about THD+N and THD - Audio Precision (ap.com)
"For THD+N Ratio, the rms level of the measured distortion plus noise (the signal with the stimulus tone removed) is divided by the rms level of the total signal. The result displayed on a bar meter or as a point on an XY sweep graph. THD+N ratio is most often stated in as a percentage or as a decibel value, where 0 dB represents the total signal. "

AP also made the point I am making here on the distortions part:
More about Signal-to-Noise Ratio and Dynamic Range - Audio Precision (ap.com)

"FOR DIGITAL CONVERTER MEASUREMENTS…
We recommend using this AES17 dynamic range measurement. It is intended specifically for ADC (analog-to-digital converter) and DAC (digital-to-analog converter) dynamic range and “noise in the presence of signal” measurements, as described in Section 9.3 of AES17. A similar method is defined in IEC61606.

This method differs from standard signal-to-noise and dynamic range measurements in that it uses a –60 dBFS stimulus during the noise measurement. This method is used for two reasons:

· In both ADCs and DACs, “idle tones” can be produced within the converter in the absence of applied signal. In the method here, a low-level tone is applied to the converter to avoid production of idle channel noise. The low-level tone is removed by a notch filter before measurement.

· In some DACs, the output of the device is switched off when there is no signal, providing an unrealistically quiet measurement. The low-level tone (again, notched out before measurement) defeats this muting mechanism.

"At –60 dBFS, the tone is so low that any distortion products created are below the noise floor."

And of course, THD+N is the reciprocal of SINAD.

It is amazing so much has to be said, when it should have been clear to anyone that THD+N (or SINAD) is not the same as SNR, if they were, people wouldn't be doing both measurements and manufacturers specs would not have included both in any case.

So umm @PENG, so Gene our leader went to a class to be trained on what he used to measure SND? All this time I thought he went to Harvard or Princeton for his Science Audio Engineering BS or Masters. Umm okay learn something everyday on AH. But on a more Serious note very nice postup! If its not clear enough to him now than he just likes to "gaslight'" AH memebers. I got your point on SNR the very first post on this thread that you commented on, and I didn't go to one of those Sepecal training classes that @gene went to.

 

[PENG]

So umm @PENG, so Gene our leader went to a class to be trained on what he used to measure SND? All this time I thought he went to Harvard or Princeton for his Science Audio Engineering BS or Masters. Umm okay learn something everyday on AH. But on a more Serious note very nice postup! If its not clear enough to him now than he just likes to "gaslight'" AH memebers. I got your point on SNR the very first post on this thread that you commented on, and I didn't go to one of those Sepecal training classes that @gene went to.

Haha that's funny..
Not really, it's just my assumption that if he invested so much on one of the best available measuring instruments for audio gear he likely would have gotten some sort of training by them.

It could have been class room type, or just on or off line audio video, or he just read the instruction manuals. I really don't know, may be you can ask him.

 

[PENG]

For those unfamiliar with the term dB FS:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
dBFS - Wikipedia

Decibels relative to full scale (dBFS or dB FS) is a unit of measurement for amplitude levels in digital systems, such as pulse-code modulation (PCM), which have a defined maximum peak level. The unit is similar to the units dBov and decibels relative to overload (dBO).[1]
The level of 0 dBFS is assigned to the maximum possible digital level.[2] For example, a signal that reaches 50% of the maximum level has a level of −6 dBFS, which is 6 dB below full scale. Conventions differ for root mean square (RMS) measurements, but all peak measurements smaller than the maximum are negative levels.

The unit dB FS or dBFS is defined in AES Standard AES17-1998,[13] IEC 61606,[14] and ITU-T Recs. P.381[15] and P.382,[16] such that the RMS value of a full-scale sine wave is designated 0 dB FS. This means a full-scale square wave would have an RMS value of +3 dB FS.[17][18] This convention is used in Wolfson[19] and Cirrus Logic[20] digital microphone specs, etc.

 

[rifmon]

Here is more info about the factory that built the HK3490.... Originally the factory was in China but 6 years ago they moved to Vietnam, Vietnam has lower labor costs and when shipping product to Europe no customs duties. The original plan was also for products shipped to North America to have no customs duties under the TPP but this didn't pass under Trump.. Today a 2nd factory has been added in Vietnam, but there they build mostly smart BT and multi-media speakers. However their 1st factory still builds a wide-range audio components; integrated amplifiers for Marantz, Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, Arcam, NAD, receivers for Anthem, Arcam, NAD, Audio Control and higher-end separate AV surround processors for JBL, Arcam and Audio Control... To me it is impressive to hear the multiple positive comments for the HK stereo receivers. We did (3) different series of HK stereo receivers starting in 1998 up to 2011, but the last HK stereo receiver series(3700) using the PCM power supply was done by the Harman product development/sourcing team based in Shenzen, China....

Just my $0.02...

M Code,

I appreciate your comments as one of the people involved in the 3490.
I own one and it's been running perfectly since I bought it used off of Amazon on 02/27/2013 for under $300.00. I love it and it drives my relatively low sensitivity Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2 EX speakers very well. I'll be switching to another room and it'l be driving my vintage Klipsch KG 1.2 with its companion passive subwoofer KG SW.

I am curious about another HK receiver from the earlier decade.. approx 1985? The HK 990VXI. That receiver is seldom mentioned. I guess it flew way under-the-radar. It sold for $1199.00 at the time so I'm guessing a lot of stereo amp for the money since they are now selling used for approx $200.00 to $300.00.

Do you have any opinion about these amps or how they might compare to the 3490?

BTW....Nice long interesting topic spanning now 11 years!

 

[PENG]

M Code,

I appreciate your comments as one of the people involved in the 3490.
I own one and it's been running perfectly since I bought it used off of Amazon on 02/27/2013 for under $300.00. I love it and it drives my relatively low sensitivity Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2 EX speakers very well. I'll be switching to another room and it'l be driving my vintage Klipsch KG 1.2 with its companion passive subwoofer KG SW.

I am curious about another HK receiver from the earlier decade.. approx 1985? The HK 990VXI. That receiver is seldom mentioned. I guess it flew way under-the-radar. It sold for $1199.00 at the time so I'm guessing a lot of stereo amp for the money since they are now selling used for approx $200.00 to $300.00.

Do you have any opinion about these amps or how they might compare to the 3490?

BTW....Nice long interesting topic spanning now 11 years!

I hope M Code has some insider info as well. Based on specs I would say it is comparable in terms of power output but it is 30 years old so for $200/$300 I would stick to the much newer HK3480, 3485 and 3490 or even the 3390.

 

[M Code]

M Code,

I appreciate your comments as one of the people involved in the 3490.
I own one and it's been running perfectly since I bought it used off of Amazon on 02/27/2013 for under $300.00. I love it and it drives my relatively low sensitivity Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2 EX speakers very well. I'll be switching to another room and it'l be driving my vintage Klipsch KG 1.2 with its companion passive subwoofer KG SW.

I am curious about another HK receiver from the earlier decade.. approx 1985? The HK 990VXI. That receiver is seldom mentioned. I guess it flew way under-the-radar. It sold for $1199.00 at the time so I'm guessing a lot of stereo amp for the money since they are now selling used for approx $200.00 to $300.00.

Do you have any opinion about these amps or how they might compare to the 3490?

BTW....Nice long interesting topic spanning now 11 years!

Hmmm..
Somebody called for M Code...
The VXI series was built by Onkyo...
It was the 1st series of Harman/Kardon electronics after Dr.Sidney Harman bought the Harman/Kardon brand back from Shin-Shirasuna out of bankruptcy in Japan in the mid-80s. Note that Dr.Harman previously sold the Harman/Kardon brand in the late 70s before taking a cabinet position in the Jimmy Carter cabinet as Deputy Secretary of Commerce.

The amplifier design/topology for the VXI series was done by Richie Miller, based in the Woodbury, NY Harman International office. Note that even up to 2010, Miller continued to design the amplifier circuits used in the HK stereo receivers, AVRs, Citation series and HK mobile amplifiers. For many years, Harman/Kardon never had their own electronics manufacturing factory in the Orient, but would typically use various ODM sources in the Orient who would implement the Miller designed amplifier circuits. For many of the HK and JBL platforms we did a lot of the product development/sourcing, and worked very close with Miller. He was amazing and had a tremendous passion to build a better sounding amplifier, he reminded alot like of a kid getting new toys @ Christmas time. Was a gentleman and was incredible to work with such a legend.

Dr.Harman always wanted to build audio electronics in the USA, but understood very well that was a challenging task. HK did attempt to build their Festival desktop component system in their Texas plant but this had various quality issues, late product launch and in the end didn't sell well. However, during this time Harman International had built a very growing, strong, profitable market position for 12V OE Infotainment systems, building significant quantities of car amplifiers for Toyota, Lexus, Chrysler, and Ford auto/trucks. In fact, in their Northridge, California 10 acre facility that included the product evaluation, marketing and executive teams for the Harman consumer and pro brands. @ the Northridge, CA facility also housed the woodmill, loudspeaker assembly and transducer manufacturing for JBL, Infinity consumer and JBL Pro. As the 12V OE business grew, Harman made some extensive investments in several $$ millions for automated circuit component insertion machines for building 12V OE auto amplifiers in Northridge, CA. The factory was QSA9001 certified and state-of-the art, but as the real estate market in Southern California grew, the 10 acre facility was sold and a small section was leased back. Eventually the 12V OE electronics factory was moved to the east coast being located closer to Detroit and the auto/truck assembly plants. While the majority of the JBL, Infinity consumer loudspeakers were transferred and built in their Tijuana, Mexico factory just across the border from San Diego.

Just my $0.02...

 

[rifmon]

Wow! Thanks for that incredible detailed history M Code!

Lots of evolution in the HK world. So I could conclude the VXI series, being designed by such an expert and enthusiast as Richie Miller, would be a very good performer. But also, since his influence extended up to 2010, he might have had some input along with you on the 3490. I realize, this may not be the case but the time frame makes it plausible.

PENG, I failed to mention that the particular 990 VXI had a lot of work; desoldering, recapping done. While that might be a good thing, I always wonder if such restorations could alter what these earlier amps were meant to sound like.

 

[M Code]

Yes...
Absolutely Richie Miller did the basic output stage design for the 3490, like he had done for every HK receiver stereo and AVR up to 2010. In 2010 HK disbanded their AVR team in Woodbury NY, Northridge CA and Seoul Korea assigning that function to their recently established Shenzen, China group. Certain key members did remain on as consultants for a short time. The team in Seoul Korea that did mainly tooling, PCB, DSP, CPU design, end-packaging were absorbed by Onkyo...

Just my $0.02...

 

[PENG]

Wow! Thanks for that incredible detailed history M Code!

Lots of evolution in the HK world. So I could conclude the VXI series, being designed by such an expert and enthusiast as Richie Miller, would be a very good performer. But also, since his influence extended up to 2010, he might have had some input along with you on the 3490. I realize, this may not be the case but the time frame makes it plausible.

PENG, I failed to mention that the particular 990 VXI had a lot of work; desoldering, recapping done. While that might be a good thing, I always wonder if such restorations could alter what these earlier amps were meant to sound like.

I guess it depends on who did the job. Recapping may be the only thing that needed to be done anyway if the amp had not been abused. If caps with similar specs, equal or better then I can't see how it would affect "sound quality". Last time I had my >35 years old Marantz pair done the authorized shop did some basic measurements (THD+N) that showed it was comparable to the original graphs published by Marantz.

 

[rifmon]

thanks PENG... In this case, it seems as though the person who did the work knew what he was doing and he gets good reviews from those who purchased other worked units from him. It comes down to whether it's worth my effort and expense to only find out it was a lateral move since the 3490 is so good. Conventional wisdom on you get what you pay for; $1199.00 new in 85 vs $500.00 new in 2009. Something to think about!

 

[PENG]

thanks PENG... In this case, it seems as though the person who did the work knew what he was doing and he gets good reviews from those who purchased other worked units from him. It comes down to whether it's worth my effort and expense to only find out it was a lateral move since the 3490 is so good. Conventional wisdom on you get what you pay for; $1199.00 new in 85 vs $500.00 new in 2009. Something to think about!

I'll take a look of the service manual to see what caused the unusual high price in 1985.

 

[rifmon]

Thanks! I could look at those all day and not detect a reason. Your knowledge is much appreciated!

 

[PENG]

Thanks! I could look at those all day and not detect a reason. Your knowledge is much appreciated!

I am not an amp designer but can follow the basic schematics and block diagrams. It will take someone like me days to compare the details, but a quick look for the obvious, found the following differences:

The 3490 is rated 120W/150W, 8/4 Ohms at 0.07%/0.2% THD the 990VXI just 90W/90W, 8/4 Ohms at 0.08%/0.09% THD.

The 3490 has
- 2X15,000 uf storage caps vs the 990's 2X13,000 uf, both rated 63Vrms
- 2.1 preouts (2 mono sub outputs), the 990 has no preouts
- Digital inputs, ADC/DAC onboard, obviously.
- XM radio, with its own separate DAC.
- Has MM phono input only, the 990 has MC input as well.
- Has much fewer pats count, a cleaner design that uses more modular devices such as the tuners.
- Likely has better dynamic output power (based on specs)

990:
- Has a front end that uses more discrete components, i.e. fewer ICs, hence much higher parts count.
- Seems to be one for the audiophiles, and those who put a lot of weight on good quality phono inputs.
- Has much higher parts count even in the power amp section, than the 3490, not necessarily better though.
- Slightly higher collector current rating output devices, 15A vs the 3490's 12A.
- Has unbelievable slew rate specs, 180 V/60V/µS, that's incredibly high, higher than most 200-300 W power amps have slew rate around 60V/60V/µS .

So I think the 990 VXI cost so much in 1985 because of:
- High parts count due to extensive use of discrete, analog vs ICs and modular design.
- More sophisticated phono stages, and includes a MC preamp, the 3490 is MM only.
- Probably aimed for audiophiles who, HK knows, would be willing to pay more so why not jack the price up.

I have no use for the MC phono preamp, and don't believe discrete better than ICs in general so this amp is not for me but obviously ymmv. My vintage Marantz preamp/power amp pair has even more sophisticated circuitry and higher parts count (being separates), and I don't find them "sounding" any better than anything other amps or even AVRs I have. For a two channel receiver, I still think there is nothing better than the HK3490, its too bad it comes with digitals, it would have been a great two channel amps if it skips the tuner and the digital front ends, again that's just me and sorry for distracting..

 

[rifmon]

Thanks PENG!

While I don't understand all the terminology etc, I do understand how you are interpreting it and it doesn't move me towards the expense of a purchase. What it does do is allows me to stick with my 3490 till it breaks which could be for some time!
I've had it for 8 years with heavy use and there is now sign of degradation or breakage!

I thank you and my wife thanks you although she was not aware that I was considering another purchase haha.

This has been well worth it to discuss this relatively little known amp.

I read through this thread often spanning over 10 years now and still find it interesting.

 

[PENG]

While I don't understand all the terminology etc, I do understand how you are interpreting it and it doesn't move me towards the expense of a purchase.

You can always take a look of the definitions/terminologies in the linked Audioholics article.

Audio Terms and Definitions | Audioholics

The terminologies and numbers I listed to compare the two are from the owner's manual and service manuals.

Basically, for THD, total harmonic distortions, lower is better whether it is in - dB or %, for example:
0.08% is -66 dB, so THD or THD+N (N is noise), 0.08% is better than 1% (in general), and -100 dB is better than -94 dB.

SINAD, is used occasionally in DAC's datasheet. SINAD is signal to noise and distortion, in dB (a ratio in log scale) so it is the reciprocal of THD+N, when expressed in dB.
For example, 80 dB SINAD is the same as -80 dB THD+N and -80 dB THD+N is the same as 0.01%
THD to dB - convert percent % to decibels dB percentage voltage % vs per cent converter THD+N total harmonic distortions calculation signal distortion factor attenuation in dB to distortion factor k in percent decibel damping - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin Again, for THD+N, lower is better, if expressed as SINAD (reciprocal) then higher is better.

SNR is just signal to noise ratio, so the higher the better.

Slew rate is the rate of how quickly an amplifier can respond to a rapid change of input level. This is measured as a change in voltage with respect to time. So clearly higher is better.
Slew Rate in Audio Amplifiers - What Does it Mean? | Audioholics

I think that covers everything listed in post#173, if there is a terminology that you don't understand, just ask and I am sure you will get an answer from someone. You can also try Dr. Google first.

 

[rifmon]

Thanks. I'll look at the terminology.

I did look at that slew rate. The square wave on the page caught my attention because I watched a video describing square waves for the vxi

The only comment on the video was that it was good. And rare. No other explanation.

 

[M Code]

For a two channel receiver, I still think there is nothing better than the HK3490, its too bad it comes with digitals, it would have been a great two channel amps if it skips the tuner and the digital front ends, again that's just me and sorry for distracting..

Note that the HK3480 the model before the HK3490 had the same amplifier output stage but NO optical or coax digital inputs...

Just my $0.02...

 

[rifmon]

I was not aware of that model. I think this decade-long discussion and initial review made the HK3490 famous. Had I known about the 3480 I would've still chosen the 3490 due to the optical input. That was the very reason I hunted down the 3490 to easily interface with TV signals. My 3490 does it all from vinyl, cd to movies!

 

[PENG]

I was not aware of that model. I think this decade-long discussion and initial review made the HK3490 famous. Had I known about the 3480 I would've still chosen the 3490 due to the optical input. That was the very reason I hunted down the 3490 to easily interface with TV signals. My 3490 does it all from vinyl, cd to movies!

Of course, the only reason why I don't like the digital front end is because I prefer to play with external DACs. You can get a <$100 DACs that beats those build in ones in such older receivers, actually even some new high end ones. To be fair, back in the days like late 80/90's, the DACs on the 3490 would be consider decent.

 

[PENG]

Note that the HK3480 the model before the HK3490 had the same amplifier output stage but NO optical or coax digital inputs...

Just my $0.02...

Wow, thank you very much. I will keep an eye on availability of a 3480 then, not need it but for fun and fulfill my wish from the past to have one of those HK 2 channel receivers.