Replacing McIntosh amp with Anthem.

[Pablo2k]

I have a McIntosh MC252, it is stereo amp, I use it for my fronts which are B&W 803 Diamonds.
My rears and center channel, B&W HTM3s and 804s are being powered by another McIntosh amplifier, the MC126.

I replaced my old processor, the McIntosh MX135 because I want to install Atmos speakers in the ceiling. (I can’t afford the MX170 $15k price tag)

Now that I no longer have an all McIntosh rack, I was thinking about replacing the MC 252 for the new Anthem MCA525 Gen 2, which is a 5 channel amp, and then I could use the MC126 for Atmos speakers and surround back as a 7.2.4 system.

Would I be disappointed by going from McIntosh to anthem? The MCA series are the lowest on their line up at $3500, which is what I can almost get for my MC252.

I will always be able to repair my McIntosh and the price always seems to go up, right now it’s worth more than what I paid for.

Thank you

 

[Verdinut]

The Anthem amp is an excellent product, but the manufacturer has not published the full specs on the MCA 525 on its website.

EDIT: Your B & W 803Ds are probably rated at 8 ohms, but they are actually performing as 4 ohm speakers based on tests which were done for Sound & Vision.magazine. In addition, they show a phase angle response of around -56° at 50 Hz. So, it takes a power amplifier with an adequate power supply to drive them:

Anthem only rated this amplifier for an 8 ohm load so far. But Audioholics provided more detailed specs in a previous post, showing that it's even rated for a temporary 2 ohm load:

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/anthem-mca-225-325-525-amplifiers

Yes, the Anthem has an adequate power supply to handle the high demands from the B & W loudspeakers. It should also perform as well as the McIntosh. As a matter of fact, it might even perform better than a McIntosh should this have a transformer in its output stage.

 

[Pablo2k]

Your B & W 830Ds are probably rated at 8 ohms, but they are actually performing as 4 ohm ........they show a phase angle response of around 70° at 50 Hz. So, ...........As a matter of fact, it might even perform better than a McIntosh should this have a transformer in its output stage.

Thank you for the response!
Let me ask you a few question (I’m sorry the more I learn the more questions I have!!)

1) I know the 803D can go as low as 3.2ohms, should I be using the 4ohms terminals instead of the 8ohms one?

2) You said that the 803D show “phase angle response of around 70° at 50 Hz” what does this mean?

3) My McIntosh MC252 has autoformers, doesn’t that help with ohms load or justify a better power supply than the MCA525?
I don’t want to make a mistake.

 

[PENG]

Thank you for the response!
Let me ask you a few question (I’m sorry the more I learn the more questions I have!!)

1) I know the 803D can go as low as 3.2ohms, should I be using the 4ohms terminals instead of the 8ohms one?

2) You said that the 803D show “phase angle response of around 70° at 50 Hz” what does this mean?

3) My McIntosh MC252 has autoformers, doesn’t that help with ohms load or justify a better power supply than the MCA525?
I don’t want to make a mistake.

1) You can, but whether you should or not, depends on your actual "power" need.
2) At higher phase angles, such as 45° and higher, the amplifier will have to dissipated a lot of heat.
3) Mc uses those autoformers to lower the voltage to match the lower load impedance.

My two cents:

- I don't know where Verdinut got his 70° at 50 Hz, according to soundandvision.com, the 803 D measured:
B&W 803D Speaker System HT Labs Measures | Sound & Vision (soundandvision.com)
"Impedance reaches a minimum of 3.65 ohms at 99 Hz and a phase angle of –56.23 degrees at 50 Hz."

That's still quite high, so if you use the 4 Ohm tap the amp will run cooler but you will lose some dynamic output capability. That may not make any difference at all in terms of sound quality, depending on your actual power need, that you can use an online calculator to find out.

- Whether it is a "mistake" or not going from a MC252 to a MCA525 is a tough question as again it depends..

- The Mc amps have better specs than the Anthem but in an apple to apple comparison both should/will sound the same if used well below their output limits.

- You do have speakers that may be considered relatively hard to drive so in my opinion you important first step is to find out your power needs. The center speaker is likely worse in that sense (power demand).

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers
Peak SPL Calculator (homestead.com)

If you are not sure about the calculated results, post the screenshots and we can help verify and/or interpret them for you.

 

[Verdinut]

Thank you for the response!
Let me ask you a few question (I’m sorry the more I learn the more questions I have!!)

1) I know the 803D can go as low as 3.2ohms, should I be using the 4ohms terminals instead of the 8ohms one?

2) You said that the 803D show “phase angle response of around 70° at 50 Hz” what does this mean?

3) My McIntosh MC252 has autoformers, doesn’t that help with ohms load or justify a better power supply than the MCA525?
I don’t want to make a mistake.

PENG referred you to 2 useful links which will help you find out how much amplifier power you use and you should have.

As for the phase angle matter, it's a complex characteristic with loudspeakers. I refer you to this link for additional info:

Understanding Ohm's Law, Impedance And Electrical Phase 101

Do you ever wonder what makes a loudspeaker "difficult to drive"? Do you wonder what's so special about an amplifier that is stable into a 4-ohm load? Audioholics looks to answer these questions here.

www.audioholics.com

 

[Irvrobinson]

I got it from a Stereophile review as per the post #2 above:

Bowers & Wilkins 802 D3 Diamond loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

The Stereophile review is for a different B&W model than what the OP has.

 

[Verdinut]

The Stereophile review is for a different B&W model than what the OP has.

You're absolutely right! Sorry @PENG about the confusion which I created. I edited the previous post accordingly.

So, the 803D is not the only B & W loudspeaker with a weird impedance and phase angle response, and the required amp power with the adequate power supply to drive them.

 

[Pablo2k]

Oh I’m sorry if I created some confusion about the speakers.
I have the first 803 that B&W used the Diamonds tweeters on.
Mine are called 803d, after that the 803 Diamonds came out.

 

[Verdinut]

Oh I’m sorry if I created some confusion about the speakers.
I have the first 803 that B&W used the Diamonds tweeters on.
Mine are called 803d, after that the 803 Diamonds came out.

No, you did not create the confusion. I did, mixing up the 802 and the 803. I edited post #2 after PENG and Ivrobinson's comments.

Have you calculated how much power you need with the Peak SPL Calculator suggested by PENG? It's an excellent tool.

 

[Pablo2k]

No, you did not create the confusion. I did, mixing up the 802 and the 803. I edited post #2 after PENG and Ivrobinson's comments.

Have you calculated how much power you need with the Peak SPL Calculator suggested by PENG? It's an excellent tool.

If I used the calculator correctly, seating at 15 feet, I’m getting 106db.
I don’t listen to music loud at all, my McIntosh processor had a 0 to 100 scale, and during movies I never past 35-40%, and in music I never went above 50%.

 

[Verdinut]

If I used the calculator correctly, seating at 15 feet, I’m getting 106db.
I don’t listen to music loud at all, my McIntosh processor had a 0 to 100 scale, and during movies I never past 35-40%, and in music I never went above 50%.

So, the Anthem would be adequate to drive your 803Ds. That would represent a good replacement for your front channels. If you get one though, should there be an impedance switch on it which I doubt, PENG and I suggest that you leave it at 8 ohms, to benefit from all of the amplifiers' dynamic output.

Let us know about your final decision and your impressions on the Anthem should you have purchased one.

 

[PENG]

If I used the calculator correctly, seating at 15 feet, I’m getting 106db.
I don’t listen to music loud at all, my McIntosh processor had a 0 to 100 scale, and during movies I never past 35-40%, and in music I never went above 50%.

In that case, as Verdinut said the MCA amp will be fine for you. Also, you can then use the MC252's 4 Ohm taps and you won't notice a difference the better dynamics capability (that is, can swing higher voltage when/if needed) of the 8 Ohm tap won't ever be called to duty anyway. Using the 4 Ohm tap will:
- let the amp run cooler
- use less energy, lower power bill (not much obviously)
- cooler means potentially slower aging process, i.e. the amps will last longer in theory

To me, its not about sound quality either way, but I would keep the MC252 if space, room, money is not an issue but would get something for the center channel (unless what you have it good enough).

 

[TankTop5]

I went by my local audio dealer yesterday looking for a deal on a second PB1000 and they had a pair of 803d’s on demo with a baby REL sub. I asked The salesman to put on a song I like that goes really low and hard. He was trying to brag about the REL Subwoofer until we got about three seconds into the song. Anyway, the 803d’s play really clean, the REL not so much.

 

[Pablo2k]

To me, its not about sound quality either way, but I would keep the MC252 if space, room, money is not an issue but would get something for the center channel (unless what you have it good enough).

That is the thing. I can only spend what I can sale.
Right now by keeping both McIntosh amps I have:
A 2ch for mains, and a 6ch for rears center and two Atmos. (5.2.2)
If I sale the 2 ch amp and get Anthem, I would have a total of 11 channels, which is enjoy for a 7.2.4.
I would only like a 5.2.4 which means trade for Anthem, or get a mono amp for center or get a stereo amp for the other two Atmos channels I’m missing.

 

[PENG]

That is the thing. I can only spend what I can sale.
Right now by keeping both McIntosh amps I have:
A 2ch for mains, and a 6ch for rears center and two Atmos. (5.2.2)
If I sale the 2 ch amp and get Anthem, I would have a total of 11 channels, which is enjoy for a 7.2.4.
I would only like a 5.2.4 which means trade for Anthem, or get a mono amp for center or get a stereo amp for the other two Atmos channels I’m missing.

If I understand correctly, you currently have a total of 8 channels of amplifiers. So if you want to do 5.2.4 that is a very popular Atmos setup, why not just purchase an Outlaw M2220 monoblock, for the center channel or a cheap 2 channel amp for the surround backs? Yes it will cost you a few hundred dollars but then you will continue to own the MC252 which is a powerful and beautiful amp. The Anthem is of a more intelligent design, but in terms of build quality the MC252 belongs to a different class, can't compare the two!

Those McIntosh amps won't be my choice because of their high price and heavy weight, and I thought the autoformers are silly (not needed).. If I own them already though, I can't imagine letting them go.

 

[Pablo2k]

So if you want to do 5.2.4 that is a very popular Atmos setup, why not just purchase an Outlaw M2220 monoblock,

PENG, As always, I appreciate your valuable input (you helped me in the past)

So it is ok to use a different amp for the center from the mains?
I had tried in the past Crown XLI and I thought they were pretty good for their price.
Or is the outlaw the one to go for?

 

[Pogre]

PENG, As always, I appreciate your valuable input (you helped me in the past)

So it is ok to use a different amp for the center from the mains?
I had tried in the past Crown XLI and I thought they were pretty good for their price.
Or is the outlaw the one to go for?

It's perfectly fine to use a different amp for the center. Just make sure it has the right specs and enough power to keep up. Crown amps are very good, tho I've heard some models have a small amount of fan noise. That's likely not an issue for most unless you sit close enough to hear it.

I've heard nothing but good about the Outlaw mono amps and don't think you can go wrong there. They're very good, powerful and small in size. The price isn't too bad either. I think you'd be very happy with one.

For what it's worth I agree with PENG. If I already owned the amps you have now I don't think I'd ever get rid of them. Whatever else one might say about Mcintosh gear, it's beautifully built, high quality gear and holds its value very well.

 

[PENG]

For what it's worth I agree with PENG. If I already owned the amps you have now I don't think I'd ever get rid of them. Whatever else one might say about Mcintosh gear, it's beautifully built, high quality gear and holds its value very well.

For the good look and build quality, I would keep such amps forever, well, pass on to my kids whether they like it or not.

 

[Pogre]

So I was looking up your gear and looky what I found!

McIntosh MC126 any good?

hi, I can’t find any reviews or information on the MC126. My Nad M25 which I use as a 5 channel amp died and I need to replace it. The M25 is 160x7 and the MC126 is 80x6 It looks like I would loose 3db on my B&W 683s front, htm61 and 684 rears; All Series 1. A co worker is selling it to me for...

audiokarma.org

Your origin story!

 

[Pablo2k]

So I was looking up your gear and looky what I found!

McIntosh MC126 any good?

hi, I can’t find any reviews or information on the MC126. My Nad M25 which I use as a 5 channel amp died and I need to replace it. The M25 is 160x7 and the MC126 is 80x6 It looks like I would loose 3db on my B&W 683s front, htm61 and 684 rears; All Series 1. A co worker is selling it to me for...

audiokarma.org

Your origin story!

Yup, My Nad Masters Series... I loved that amp and then it died... :-( So I got the MC126 and a few other pieces and I got hooked on the McIntosh wagon... I then upgraded some stuff and added the MC252.

I miss the Nad, it was great for movies, but for music, there was a distinguishable difference with the system I have now.

I like that Outlaw Model 2220 PENG mentioned, It is settled! lol ordering soon.