Using older receivers with full discrete amps as amps with my Denon X4300H for driving 7.1.4

[lovinthehd]

That is how I was planning to use an older AVR for, use rca analog ins for 5-7 channels. My understanding was the older AVRs say like 5800 didn’t come down a whole lot on per channel output when all output are being simultaneously used, say in the case of my 4300 could significantly drop in power output when all channels were bring utilized, at least that was what my understanding was. I have an older yamaha htr 4065, bought as a stop gap when in 2011 my onkyo 7 channel quit in its 2nd or 3rd year, this Yamaha is rated for 80 wpc with 2 channel driven, is what I had setup for front LRs, and leaving the rest to the denon.

ACD ratings aren't real world situations really, i.e. content generally doesn't need simultaneous full power in all channels, so why worry about that? Do you play music loudly in a multi-ch stereo mode? That's probably the closest you'd get to worrying about equal power to all speakers (and then you'd have to also consider their sensitivity, and spl capabilities for such as compared to mains). I doubt the amp sections are that different in terms of ACD power ratios, Denon seems fairly consistent on 2ch vs 5ch vs 7ch in bench testing. While some older avrs have beefier amp sections and power supplies, you're still not talking about very significant differences in power between your 140wpc 4311 and the 170wpc 5800 is less than 1dB.

 

[PENG]

My understanding was the older AVRs say like 5800 didn’t come down a whole lot on per channel output when all output are being simultaneously used, say in the case of my 4300 could significantly drop in power output when all channels were bring utilized, at least that was what my understanding was.

The point you raised is very interesting so I decided to check things out based on soundandvision.com's bench tests. I found that in general, what you are saying is only true for the flag ship models. That's easy to understand because they tended to have larger power supplies.

The same cannot really be said about the mid range models. The newer models typically can do about 75% when 5 channels driven. There could be some exceptions when the ratio would be lower, but in those cases I found it was because of the exceptionally good 2 channel driven output. For example, the Denon AVR-3808 and 4308's two channel numbers were about the same as the AVR-5805's, but obviously with their much smaller power supplies, the numbers would be much lower with 5 channel driven.

Regardless, as it has been said many time here on AH, including Gene himself, there is no practical need for AVRs or even power amps to have 5 and 7 channel driven outputs close to their rated outputs with two channel driven. Also been repeated many times here, that 2X power output reflects only 3 dB gain on SPL, and 1.5X is about 1.76 dB, not really much of a factor.

 

[i_max]

ACD ratings aren't real world situations really, i.e. content generally doesn't need simultaneous full power in all channels, so why worry about that? Do you play music loudly in a multi-ch stereo mode? That's probably the closest you'd get to worrying about equal power to all speakers (and then you'd have to also consider their sensitivity, and spl capabilities for such as compared to mains). I doubt the amp sections are that different in terms of ACD power ratios, Denon seems fairly consistent on 2ch vs 5ch vs 7ch in bench testing. While some older avrs have beefier amp sections and power supplies, you're still not talking about very significant differences in power between your 140wpc 4311 and the 170wpc 5800 is less than 1dB.

So another thread I read here, I believe from 2019/2020 someone said a good eye ball figure to find out what would be ACD for an amp was to take the mains output number in case of 4300H its 710 watts, divide that by 2, since AB amps usually are about 50% efficient, some power would also be needed to run the electronics, so about ~ 355-10/20 = 335 watts, and divide that by the number of channels so 335/9 = 37 WPC with ACD. Another guide was a third of the output wattage would be more realistic 710/3 /9 channel = 27 wpc

Now I do get that no movie is going to run all speakers at high drive for a significant time, but say the race sequence from Ready player one, John wick scenes etc, and also my towers are 88db per watt @ 1m and I’m not listening at reference, usually I’m at 60-65 if reference is at 75 vol setting on my receiver. I have seen myself goto 70 once in a while say in Disney 4K or something.

so would the receiver hold with 27 or 37 WPC max output with 11 speakers? Or would it benefit to have say a 4311 9 channel 140 WPC which would be close to its real world output.

edit: thread I was referencing https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/all-channels-driven-ratings.114128/page-7

 

[Pogre]

So another thread I read here, I believe from 2019/2020 someone said a good eye ball figure to find out what would be ACD for an amp was to take the mains output number in case of 4300H its 710 watts, divide that by 2, since AB amps usually are about 50% efficient, some power would also be needed to run the electronics, so about ~ 355-10/20 = 335 watts, and divide that by the number of channels so 335/9 = 37 WPC with ACD. Another guide was a third of the output wattage would be more realistic 710/3 /9 channel = 27 wpc

Now I do get that no movie is going to run all speakers at high drive for a significant time, but say the race sequence from Ready player one, John wick scenes etc, and also my towers are 88db per watt @ 1m and I’m not listening at reference, usually I’m at 60-65 if reference is at 75 vol setting on my receiver. I have seen myself goto 70 once in a while say in Disney 4K or something.

so would the receiver hold with 27 or 37 WPC max output with 11 speakers? Or would it benefit to have say a 4311 9 channel 140 WPC which would be close to its real world output.

edit: thread I was referencing https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/all-channels-driven-ratings.114128/page-7

You are far too fixated on acd power ratings. They're pretty much meaningless because you'll almost never be firing on all cylinders at the same time. 2 channel ratings are sufficient, imo. Tho a 3 channel rating would be even better, only because the front 3 are what sees all the action for movies and the front 2 for music.

I think a Crown 1502 or two is a great solution for you. Lots of power for your difficult speakers and best bang for buck.

 

[lovinthehd]

So another thread I read here, I believe from 2019/2020 someone said a good eye ball figure to find out what would be ACD for an amp was to take the mains output number in case of 4300H its 710 watts, divide that by 2, since AB amps usually are about 50% efficient, some power would also be needed to run the electronics, so about ~ 355-10/20 = 335 watts, and divide that by the number of channels so 335/9 = 37 WPC with ACD. Another guide was a third of the output wattage would be more realistic 710/3 /9 channel = 27 wpc

Now I do get that no movie is going to run all speakers at high drive for a significant time, but say the race sequence from Ready player one, John wick scenes etc, and also my towers are 88db per watt @ 1m and I’m not listening at reference, usually I’m at 60-65 if reference is at 75 vol setting on my receiver. I have seen myself goto 70 once in a while say in Disney 4K or something.

so would the receiver hold with 27 or 37 WPC max output with 11 speakers? Or would it benefit to have say a 4311 9 channel 140 WPC which would be close to its real world output.

edit: thread I was referencing https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/all-channels-driven-ratings.114128/page-7

Again, why worry about an ACD rating? Weird way you calculate it, too. Just look at a bench test if you want to know rather than guess. The 4300's amp section is pretty much the same one as in this one https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x4200w-av-receiver-review-test-bench

Your surrounds aren't generally playing at full bore, plus you're using powered subs to take some of the load off. Some explosions might get closest to a burst in all channels simultaneously, and it wouldn't likely matter if you clipped a bit with one either. You're overthinking things.

 

[PENG]

So another thread I read here, I believe from 2019/2020 someone said a good eye ball figure to find out what would be ACD for an amp was to take the mains output number in case of 4300H its 710 watts, divide that by 2, since AB amps usually are about 50% efficient, some power would also be needed to run the electronics, so about ~ 355-10/20 = 335 watts, and divide that by the number of channels so 335/9 = 37 WPC with ACD. Another guide was a third of the output wattage would be more realistic 710/3 /9 channel = 27 wpc

Now I do get that no movie is going to run all speakers at high drive for a significant time, but say the race sequence from Ready player one, John wick scenes etc, and also my towers are 88db per watt @ 1m and I’m not listening at reference, usually I’m at 60-65 if reference is at 75 vol setting on my receiver. I have seen myself goto 70 once in a while say in Disney 4K or something.

so would the receiver hold with 27 or 37 WPC max output with 11 speakers? Or would it benefit to have say a 4311 9 channel 140 WPC which would be close to its real world output.

edit: thread I was referencing https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/all-channels-driven-ratings.114128/page-7

No and no, people often thing that, but it doesn't work like that because:

a) We don't know what that 710 W is based on, you are assuming it is at maximum output but it likely isn't.

b) For efficiency, Class AB amp such as Denon's will do quite a bit better than 50% at rated output, likely even higher at above rated output (short term). There is an Audioholics.com article on it that I linked before so you can search for it. My educated guess is, more like 75 to 78%.

Regardless, the fact is, Denon/Marantz sort of guaranteed you would get about 70% of the 2 channel rating, when 5 channels are driven simultaneously. Audioholics.com and others bench tests confirmed that they could in fact deliver that mush. There are many forum talks out there, be careful who you choose to trust.

The big unknown is again, no body know the basis for those power consumption figures. Take a look of Yamaha's, its about 600 W (iirc) or so for their RX-A2000/3000 series, but they also gave a "maximum" that exceeds 1,000 W, its a mess, free for all, when there are no standards that they have to follow, sad... Only the manufacturers can tell you what it really is, if they are willing to tell you, and you have to insist on getting an answer from engineering, not marketing, if you do want to email/call them.

So the bottom line is, trust bench test results, and do not try to calculate it from those so called "power consumption" figures.

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh, if that 710 W is the "power consumption" spec found on the back or in the manual, try this article https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/receiver-back-panel-power-ratings

 

[PENG]

Oh, if that 710 W is the "power consumption" spec found on the back or in the manual, try this article https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/receiver-back-panel-power-ratings

Yes (not just on the back, but also in the manuals), and thank you, that's one of the two that I was referring to, but was too busy to search it for the OP.

Its just too bad that just about every couple months some one would do similar sort of calculations using such practically useless specs.. and then you have to quote AH's articles again, to add credibility to our typical responses.

Is there a way to alert people on this and the ACD thing before they click "post"? Just kidding, obviously..

It is not anyone but the manufacturer's fault. They should either specify the standards/rules they follow, or if it is their own, state the test conditions in their marketing material, ie. full disclosure, that's not a lot to ask imo.

 

[i_max]

Denon avr 4311ci , I've owned this AVR since it came out and its still going strong, knocking on wood. But its getting old in the tooth on supporting features when matched with a newer TV, and supporting speaker options, ATMOS, etc....

I’d say get a 9 channel receiver which could goto 11 channel if you want to have a 7.1.4 kind of setup, I believe the 3700H can be used for that, and use the 4311ci with its analog ins to drive the most hungry ones, should augment the system really well.

You are far too fixated on acd power ratings. They're pretty much meaningless because you'll almost never be firing on all cylinders at the same time. 2 channel ratings are sufficient, imo. Tho a 3 channel rating would be even better, only because the front 3 are what sees all the action for movies and the front 2 for music.

I think a Crown 1502 or two is a great solution for you. Lots of power for your difficult speakers and best bang for buck.

Fine! I give in to all this pressure to get an amp, that I really don’t need. (Dad jokes)

there was a used like new in Amazon warehouse for $388 for the 1502 vs the regular $449, pulled the trigger.

 

[i_max]

So I got the crown xls 1502 today. And I set it to 0.75 high gain sensitivity, but i had to increase the dials/gains to both channels to 3 o clock or more to get some output. I’m guessing redoing audessey and setting the gain to 12 o clock will recalibrate the signal strength from my Denon to the amp.

Should this be done any differently?

 

[lovinthehd]

Wow that was fast. I used the 1.4V setting with my Denon (on the older XLS that's the only choice anyways), or at least I'd start with that setting. What does get some output mean? What channel trim levels? Yes, you should redo Audyssey but you may need to leave gain on the Crown where it is. I set the Crowns so they just barely clip at highest level signals used.

 

[i_max]

Wow that was fast. I used the 1.4V setting with my Denon (on the older XLS that's the only choice anyways), or at least I'd start with that setting. What does get some output mean? What channel trim levels? Yes, you should redo Audyssey but you may need to leave gain on the Crown where it is. I set the Crowns so they just barely clip at highest level signals used.

Had next day shipping available so used that. I meant I had to turn up the volume on the Denon quite a bit as well as the gain knobs on the amp, to be able start hearing audio from the speaker. How do I level gain with barely clipping?

I’m also trying to use my Yamaha for my center channel, it’s supposed to do 115 wpc for single channel driven, would I do a Y split input from my center channel into a L& R analog into the Yamaha?

edit: some clarity. Autocorrect messing things

 

[lovinthehd]

Had next day shipping available so used that. How do I level gain with barely clipping?

I’m also trying to use my Yamaha for my center channel, it’s supposed to do 115 wpc for single channel driven, would I do a Y split input from my center channel into a L& R analog into the Yamaha?

Ah, am too cheap to pay for a day or two advantage

Why use the additional box of the Yamaha at all? Your Denon has more power. If it doesn't have the appropriate multi-ch inputs then you could pick one input, L or R, and set output on the Yamaha for that (probably want to use as direct a mode to bypass any unnecessary processing). I'd not bother myself.

 

[i_max]

Ah, am too cheap to pay for a day or two advantage

Why use the additional box of the Yamaha at all? Your Denon has more power. If it doesn't have the appropriate multi-ch inputs then you could pick one input, L or R, and set output on the Yamaha for that (probably want to use as direct a mode to bypass any unnecessary processing). I'd not bother myself.

It was prime free actually , I searched a little and seems like it’s a little complex, people end up bi amping. I’ll keep it with the Denon.

 

[lovinthehd]

It was prime free actually , I searched a little and seems like it’s a little complex, people end up bi amping. I’ll keep it with the Denon.

Ah, I've been a Prime customer for many years now.....but I don't get next day shipping offers where I live, 2 day at best.

I'm not sure what you mean by searching and complex let alone the bi-amp thing.....

 

[Verdinut]

I think that the OP is mixing external amplification with bi-amping.

 

[i_max]

This is what I was referring to

Can I Use a Stereo Amp to Power One Speaker?

Got a tech question for Sound & Vision? Email us at AskSandV@gmail.com Q Will I damage a stereo amplifier by using it to amplify only one channel—in this case, my system’s center speaker?—Richard Regan A No, but there are conditions. Depending on the capabilities of your amplifier, you'll have...

www.soundandvision.com

Q Will I damage a stereo amplifier by using it to amplify only one channel—in this case, my system’s center speaker?—Richard Regan

A No, but there are conditions. Depending on the capabilities of your amplifier, you'll have several options to work with. The first, and easiest, is to use only a single channel of the stereo amp to power your center speaker. Just run the mono center channel output of your preamp to the amp’s right or left channel input and connect the speaker to its corresponding output.

The second is to biamp the speaker, an option that could result in better sound. First, remove the jumpers that connect the two sets of inputs on the speaker’s back panel. Next, using a Y adapter, split your preamp’s center channel output between the amp’s left and right inputs and then use its left/right outputs to separately drive the speaker’s tweeter and midrange/woofer sections.

 

[lovinthehd]

This is what I was referring to

Can I Use a Stereo Amp to Power One Speaker?

Got a tech question for Sound & Vision? Email us at AskSandV@gmail.com Q Will I damage a stereo amplifier by using it to amplify only one channel—in this case, my system’s center speaker?—Richard Regan A No, but there are conditions. Depending on the capabilities of your amplifier, you'll have...

www.soundandvision.com

Mono center channel? Not really, it's a discrete center channel signal. Bi-amping in such a way is more a waste of wire IMO. Active bi-amping or don't bother IMO.

 

[Verdinut]

This is what I was referring to

Can I Use a Stereo Amp to Power One Speaker?

Got a tech question for Sound & Vision? Email us at AskSandV@gmail.com Q Will I damage a stereo amplifier by using it to amplify only one channel—in this case, my system’s center speaker?—Richard Regan A No, but there are conditions. Depending on the capabilities of your amplifier, you'll have...

www.soundandvision.com

You were referring to passive bi-amping which doesn't give any advantage except a gain of only 3 dB.. Someone is better off by using a more powerful amp if the current one is struggling to drive a loudspeaker.

 

[lovinthehd]

You were referring to passive bi-amping which doesn't give any advantage except a gain of only 3 dB.. Someone is better off by using a more powerful amp if the current one is struggling to drive a loudspeaker.

Passive bi-amping is not a 3dB advantage as that would take a doubling of power....which passive bi-amping is not.