REW measured sub response in basement

[3db]

Using the information in this link;

, I measured the in room response of my sub (only) by setting all my speakers to small and setting the crossover to 200Hz, the highest my AVR would allow me set them. Secondally, I limited the REW sweep from 15Hz to 200 Hz. The measurements I took are from the listener position (couch) starting at center, right, and left. The distance between center and right or left is 24" or 2 ft.



Based on this graph, do I need a 2nd sub to help me smooth out between 40Hz and 80Hz

 

[3db]

Anyone?

 

[3db]

Seriously? All these experts and no one can answer this fundamental question?

 

[TLS Guy]

Seriously? All these experts and no one can answer this fundamental question?

I actually think it looks pretty good. I would do a plot with your mains included and the crossover set to 60 Hz and see how it looks. I have a feeling it will look pretty good.

You must remember that the ear is not very sensitive in that range, especially to some dips, peaks are far more problematic. Peaks make it boomy, dips are very innocent.
People really do tend to run subs far too loud anyway. In may view that produces very unrealistic reproduction.

 

[pcosmic]

Seriously? All these experts and no one can answer this fundamental question?

Lol, here are a coupla fundamental questions
a) Are you a movie boom shakalaka boom boom boom guy or a relatively more high standards music guy?
b) Did it all sound good before you took your REW measurements?
c) Did it all suddenly start to sound bad after you took the measurements?

 

[shadyJ]

One thing you should do is separate the traces. You can do this by clicking the "separate" button in the upper right hand of the graph. It's not all that easy to tell what is going on in your graph the way it is now. Following the traces, it looks like the green is yielding the best response. It does leave a sharp null, but it's a very high Q dip so likely isn't doing that much audible harm. The thing is, if you are trying to address more than one listening position, you probably aren't getting pretty results elsewhere.

 

[3db]

Thanks guys for chiming in. I just needed some opinions to kick start my thought processes.

Shady, just to be clear, these traces were taken all taken from the couch moving the mic 24" from center, to right, to left. I did not expect to see such differencs in the 40 to 60 Hz range. Personally I think the blue curve is the best because it would be easier to integrate to the mains for a smoother transistion.

TLS, I will measure again using the YPAO flat curve and see what that gives me. I will then run more measurements with my main speakers and crossovers set to 60 as you suggested and at 80Hz just to see.

Pcosmic, I was lacking mid bass slam and started to play around.

 

[Alex2507]

do I need a 2nd sub

Yes.

lacking mid bass slam

Oh no.

All it takes is money. Is it the PSB or the Rythmic in that set up?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yeah, definitely include the mains as this will tell you much more. Use one at a time too, or even the center/sub. Running sweeps with both mains at the same time can cause comb filtering. In normal content, there’s rarely ever material that’s exactly the same from both, but sine waves are exactly that. There are times when you’d want to sweep L/sub and R/sub separately to see how the room and placement affects FR, especially if the gear is asymmetrical

 

[pcosmic]

Pcosmic, I was lacking mid bass slam and started to play around.

There is a notion on some of these forums at times that adding a subwoofer can fix everything even if the main speaker is a weakass noodle speaker. They may ask you to add a platoon of rotund subs and it could shake the house (causing physical/mental distress), bring the roof down with one big "SLAM", etc bwaaaaaahahahaha... bwaaaaaah
But, the subwoofer is the incorrect place to look for this mid bass "slam" that you are looking for. You technically need some very legit main speakers to make that happen.

Cheapest fix could be to try optimizing position/placement of mains (turn off the sub and do this with main speakers alone running full range), alter distance between you and speakers, etc to see if the "slam" improves. But, in the end it is a limitation of your main speakers. If you are committed to your mains and insist on buying more subs, i would recommend you not buy some lardass clueless sub and try something more tactical like this midbass unit.

Rythmik Audio servo subwoofer 8" FM8

.LFE+Main or 'blending' it in, etc are all things you would try.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

There is a notion on some of these forums at times that adding a subwoofer can fix everything even if the main speaker is a weakass noodle speaker. They may ask you to add a platoon of rotund subs and it could shake the house (causing physical/mental distress), bring the roof down with one big "SLAM", etc bwaaaaaahahahaha... bwaaaaaah
But, the subwoofer is the incorrect place to look for this mid bass "slam" that you are looking for. You technically need some very legit main speakers to make that happen.

Cheapest fix could be to try optimizing position/placement of mains (turn off the sub and do this with main speakers alone running full range), alter distance between you and speakers, etc to see if the "slam" improves. But, in the end it is a limitation of your main speakers. If you are committed to your mains and insist on buying more subs, i would recommend you not buy some lardass clueless sub and try something more tactical like this midbass unit.

Rythmik Audio servo subwoofer 8" FM8

.LFE+Main or 'blending' it in, etc are all things you would try.

To add, midbass slam is a function of SPL. There’s NO way to get slammed(maybe jack daniels?) without sufficient SPL. Midbass fullness, yes. Slam? Nope.

Usually when someone complains about lacking midbass, there seems to be a XO issue. That’s why you need to sweep with mains.

 

[shadyJ]

There is a notion on some of these forums at times that adding a subwoofer can fix everything even if the main speaker is a weakass noodle speaker. They may ask you to add a platoon of rotund subs and it could shake the house (causing physical/mental distress), bring the roof down with one big "SLAM", etc bwaaaaaahahahaha... bwaaaaaah
But, the subwoofer is the incorrect place to look for this mid bass "slam" that you are looking for. You technically need some very legit main speakers to make that happen.

Cheapest fix could be to try optimizing position/placement of mains (turn off the sub and do this with main speakers alone running full range), alter distance between you and speakers, etc to see if the "slam" improves. But, in the end it is a limitation of your main speakers. If you are committed to your mains and insist on buying more subs, i would recommend you not buy some lardass clueless sub and try something more tactical like this midbass unit.

Rythmik Audio servo subwoofer 8" FM8

.LFE+Main or 'blending' it in, etc are all things you would try.

Hsu used to have the MBM-12 which was a mid-bass module using a 12" cone. They discontinued it when they launched the ULS-15 mk2 since the ULS-15 mk2 had more mid-bass headroom and wasn't that much more expensive. Not to say that is the direction 3db should go since I believe he is in Canada, and they will have duties that really hike the cost up. Some really good subs with powerful mid-bass are the Paradigm Defiance subs, which may be cheaper for 3db than American brands since they are Canadian. The Defiance X12 can hit at 117dB and 40 Hz and above if I remember right. Pretty much on par with the ULS-15 mk2. I doubt the Rythmik dual 8" subs can get close to that, and they are probably more expensive after shipping fees to Canada.

 

[TLS Guy]

There is a notion on some of these forums at times that adding a subwoofer can fix everything even if the main speaker is a weakass noodle speaker. They may ask you to add a platoon of rotund subs and it could shake the house (causing physical/mental distress), bring the roof down with one big "SLAM", etc bwaaaaaahahahaha... bwaaaaaah
But, the subwoofer is the incorrect place to look for this mid bass "slam" that you are looking for. You technically need some very legit main speakers to make that happen.

Cheapest fix could be to try optimizing position/placement of mains (turn off the sub and do this with main speakers alone running full range), alter distance between you and speakers, etc to see if the "slam" improves. But, in the end it is a limitation of your main speakers. If you are committed to your mains and insist on buying more subs, i would recommend you not buy some lardass clueless sub and try something more tactical like this midbass unit.

Rythmik Audio servo subwoofer 8" FM8

.LFE+Main or 'blending' it in, etc are all things you would try.

You are absolutely correct. This is what I have been saying for years. Good speakers just get a slight improvement from subs. And you are correct LFE + main should be used much more often than it is. I would bet it is actually the preferred setting for most capable tower speakers certainly ones that are any good.

3db, turn off YPAO to set things up. Certainly don't use a flat setting that is totally a nonsense when measuring an FR at a distance. Personally, I'm yet to hear Audyssey improve anything, and actually makes matters worse. You have good speakers, and I suspect you will get best results disabling any form of auto Eq.

 

[pcosmic]

Hsu used to have the MBM-12 which was a mid-bass module using a 12" cone. They discontinued it when they launched the ULS-15 mk2 since the ULS-15 mk2 had more mid-bass headroom and wasn't that much more expensive. Not to say that is the direction 3db should go since I believe he is in Canada, and they will have duties that really hike the cost up. Some really good subs with powerful mid-bass are the Paradigm Defiance subs, which may be cheaper for 3db than American brands since they are Canadian. The Defiance X12 can hit at 117dB and 40 Hz and above if I remember right. Pretty much on par with the ULS-15 mk2. I doubt the Rythmik dual 8" subs can get close to that, and they are probably more expensive after shipping fees to Canada.

I suppose there may be other options out there for our friends in Canadia, as you indicate.....But shady, while we are on this topic, why don't you convince Matthew Poes (the real heavyweight in this crew) to build this kit and review a pair of these...
https://www.gr-research.com/store/p13/NX-Treme.html
I have a feeling many guys on this forum have not heard a legitimate speaker. Gene Dellasella's gonna be in tears when Matthew builds these and beats the crap out of those $$$$ RBHs....bwaaahahahaha bwaaaaha

 

[shadyJ]

I suppose there may be other options out there for our friends in Canadia, as you indicate.....But shady, while we are on this topic, why don't you convince Matthew Poes (the real heavyweight in this crew) to build this kit and review a pair of these...
https://www.gr-research.com/store/p13/NX-Treme.html
I have a feeling many guys on this forum have not heard a legitimate speaker. Gene Dellasella's gonna be in tears when Matthew builds these and beats the crap out of those $$$$ RBHs....bwaaahahahaha bwaaaaha

That speaker looks quite nice but it isn't quite on the level of Gene's RBH active speakers. Gene's speakers have far more displacement ability and the ability to fine-tune the response to a much more exact degree. What is more is that the RBH speakers don't carry the phase rotation of passive circuits or even basic active crossover since it uses FIR filters which can achieve phase coherence in a way that no passive speaker can dream of.

 

[3db]

You are absolutely correct. This is what I have been saying for years. Good speakers just get a slight improvement from subs. And you are correct LFE + main should be used much more often than it is. I would bet it is actually the preferred setting for most capable tower speakers certainly ones that are any good.

3db, turn off YPAO to set things up. Certainly don't use a flat setting that is totally a nonsense when measuring an FR at a distance. Personally, I'm yet to hear Audyssey improve anything, and actually makes matters worse. You have good speakers, and I suspect you will get best results disabling any form of auto Eq.

TLS, I played all afternoon with REW taking measurements. I have one more set of measurementts to take but it got cool in the house as I turned off the furnace while taking measurements. Just to clarify some definitions of the graph names which I tried to keep consistent, THRU means YPAO is OFF but the AVR crossover is still engaged. Manual means YPAO is On but I manually EQ'd the sub only.


I will run one more set of measurements tomorrow setting the speakers to large with YPAO turned off to see what I get. I'm also thinking that since the room is not a room built specifically for HT, this may be as good as gets. A second sub with miniDSP may help. I'm actually over all pleased with the sound I'm getting. Its the theoretical part of it that bothers me the most. SInce I'm grieving the loss of my wife, I have time to do this.

 

[pcosmic]

That speaker looks quite nice but it isn't quite on the level of Gene's RBH active speakers. Gene's speakers have far more displacement ability and the ability to fine-tune the response to a much more exact degree. What is more is that the RBH speakers don't carry the phase rotation of passive circuits or even basic active crossover since it uses FIR filters which can achieve phase coherence in a way that no passive speaker can dream of.

That seemingly impractical $$$$ RBH is a tough sell for 99.99% folks Shady....a telemetry package inside a speaker bwaaahahahaha...How many guys do you think would want Conan O' Brien camping out in their houses for a week just to be able to set it up? Did a chunk of that speaker's price go into Conan's hotel stay, restaurant bill and a week's worth of specialized setup labor? ...I think our arguments on this FIR filter theorycrafting extravaganza and its impact on sound can get extensive, but, it's a recipe for severe OCD, i would think (especially if ya spent that much).....If this was the end all be all answer for a speaker, i'm fairly certain that the likes of TAD, Revel, etc would have explored this a long time ago and made it a more turnkey solution. It would make a good DIY exercise for engineers with a lotta time in their hands though. I'll DIY it after i retire.

Has RBH sold another pair of those (besides the one they sold to Gene)?

 

[shadyJ]

Yes, the RBH SVTRS speakers are not for everyone, but you are the one who made that comparison. The GR Research kit speaker isn't for everyone either. Personally, either speaker is a bit grandiose for my tastes.

High-resolution FIR filters that could be used in a DSP only became feasible recently. I guarantee you will be seeing them more in the future.

 

[pcosmic]

Yes, the RBH SVTRS speakers are not for everyone, but you are the one who made that comparison. The GR Research kit speaker isn't for everyone either. Personally, either speaker is a bit grandiose for my tastes.

High-resolution FIR filters that could be used in a DSP only became feasible recently. I guarantee you will be seeing them more in the future.

The key difference though here is price shady. The GR kit is 3k versus we both know how much Gene's speakers cost. A astounding harp player and a long time buddy of mine has a pair of these (i built it for her). She wanted the orchestra to come home and was initially looking to drop $$$$$ on Von Schweikerts. In fact, i asked her to make a review video of it, (i mean how often do we really get to see the take from a musician?) but, she's too much of a social recluse to do a damn video...Oh well... Speaking of practical, the speakers are about 7ish ft tall, which is doable for many US homes actually.

 

[shadyJ]

The key difference though here is price shady. The GR kit is 3k versus we both know how much Gene's speakers cost. A astounding harp player and a long time buddy of mine has a pair of these (i built it for her). She wanted the orchestra to come home and was initially looking to drop $$$$$ on Von Schweikerts. In fact, i asked her to make a review video of it, (i mean how often do we really get to see the take from a musician?) but, she's too much of a social recluse to do a damn video...Oh well... Speaking of practical, the speakers are about 7ish ft tall, which is doable for many US homes actually.

I was talking about the ability to assemble a kit speaker like that, not only its size. What is more is that those GR Research speakers look like they don't do deep bass. Anechoically I would guess their -3dB point is somewhere between 80 and 90 Hz. Gene's speakers not only come with subs, they come with an absolutely monster subwoofer system.

I am not trying to rip on those GR Research speakers, and they do look like a very good deal, but they are not a good comparison against the RBH SVTRS, because it's a very different type of situation. Consider that:

1. GR Research kit gives you no deep bass so you have to provide the subwoofers, while the SVTRS gives you gigantic deep bass.
2. GR Research kit requires assembly, which means you need time and also tools such as clamps. RBH will come out to your place and set the SVTRS speakers up for you, so it doesn't eat up much time.
3. The SVTRS speakers are big but nice looking. The GR Research speakers require that much more time for you to get them to look nice unless you want a bare MDF finish.
4. The SVTRS speakers come with massive amplifiers as well as some pre-amp abilities and also EQ abilities. You have to provide all of that to the GR Research speakers.
5. The SVTRS speakers are guaranteed to work well. With the GR Research speakers, you have no guarantee that you built them correctly without the ability to measure the end results. You have to be your own QC, and how many people can do that?

So the value disparity between the SVTRS and GR Research speakers isn't as large as you are making it out to be. The GR Research speakers look like a great deal if you have more time and elbow grease than money. And with the GR Research speakers, you still have to buy clamps, primer, paint, amps, measurement mic, subwoofers, etc. That is all going to cost a few extra thousand at least. And even if you do everything perfectly, it will still be at a dynamic range and phase linearity disadvantage against the SVTRS. The SVTRS is expensive but is not a bad value. Look at similarly priced competing systems from other loudspeaker manufacturers. Look at what you actually need to do to make a speaker system that could fully match the performance of the SVTRS. Even if you already had a good design and knew how to make a loudspeaker, you are facing at least $10k in raw materials, probably quite a bit more.