Amp Upgrade for KefLS50 CXA80 or CX81?

[lbutron]

Hi I´m planning an Amp upgrade my current setup is 70-30 (Music-Movies) in small room 13x14 ft.
I mostly stream Classic Rock & Jazz whit Roon (No turntable, a few times CD´s) :
-Yamaha AVR Avantage RX-780, 95 watts per channel, with 2 channels driven
-Cambridge Audio CXN V2 streamer
-Pioneer BDP-320 CD/Blu-ray Player (rearly use)
-Kef LS50 (whit kef Stans)
-PSB Sub 10" Connected via High Pas to the AVR / the Kef´s are connected to the high pass out of the sub.

What i´m looking is to upgrade the amp as i think the Yamaha AVR i´ts holding me back, I know for past expirience that its better to wait an strech you budget to get the best gear, than go for something cheaper an then sell it back, my options are:

1) CA CXA81 it will match perfectly whit the CXN,
2) Also I have an option to get the CX80 *used* for half the price, my concerns here are if there are any worth imporvments in getting the CXA81 vs CXA80, I know there are some DAC improvements over one an other, but i´ts a sonic or amp improvements? I´m thinking long term here, I don´t want to sell the CXA80 in few months because I need "or think i need" an upgrade, also less important and only a piky idea is the color miss march (CXNV2 Lunar Grey vs CXA80 Silver )
3) Roksan K3 almost 50% more $$$ than a CXA81 where i live, i will have to wait a little more time as this is out of my budget right know.

 

[Pogre]

Unless you sit pretty far away or listen at pretty high volumes I don't think swapping out your power supply is going to make any difference. Your speakers are rated up to 100 watts and you're pretty much there with your Yamaha, and it's a great receiver with a good DAC already.

The big glaring weak link in your chain is your sub. I think putting your amp money into a nice sub upgrade will net you some pretty big gains in overall sound quality. Not just bass. Good, clean bass is always underestimated. An appropriately sized, good quality sub has a way of cleaning up your entire system from top to bottom.

I was shocked at how much better my system sounded when I got the appropriate subwoofage. I don't say "night and day" very often but it really was. My undersized mid tier sub was dirtying up my sound more than I realized. I resisted the suggestion at first, but now that I've heard it I get it. Good, clean bass has to be experienced. Those LS50s are pretty nice by all accounts and so is your avr.

If you're dubious take a look at SVS. They have a 45 day trial period and you can send it back if not satisfied for any reason, no questions asked. They'll even pay shipping both ways. I think a pair of either PB or PC2000 pros would make you a believer too!

SVS 2000 Pro Series Subwoofers

Reference subwoofer performance made possible for more people than ever.

www.svsound.com

 

[EBN]

@lbutron

Most people hear the difference with good integrated stereo amp vs. cheaper receiver in 2ch listening, at least when heard at home w/ pair of quality speakers. The LS50s are often called mini reference. Would any real audiophile use those with lower range av-receiver?

The 700 range Aventage is basically identical to RX-V6xx with Aventage stamp and middle feet. The better products with Yamaha starts A10x0 upwards. You should look quality 2ch amp with HT-bypass! See link below:

Amplifiers with HT-bypass - update 27. October 2024

Audiophile.no has made a list of stereo preamps and integrated amps that have one sort of HT-bypass. This list is updated 27. October 2024 with preamplifiers from Teac, and will be will be continuously updated. Written by Karl Erik Sylthe, at 15.02.07 Translated to English in june 2008Latest...

www.audiophile.no

Try to get home demo so you will hear the difference yourself!

Edit. Bad joke removed due to grumpy member.

 

[lovinthehd]

Integrated amps aren't magic....they're just old receivers without tuners or digital capabilities or bass management for the most part

Speaking of bass management why are you using what I assume is just the high level inputs on the sub? Does the sub actually have a high pass filter for the speakers? Why not simply use the bass management in the avr? What PSB sub is it particularly?

 

[Pogre]

Integrated amps aren't magic....they're just old receivers without tuners or digital capabilities or bass management for the most part

Speaking of bass management why are you using what I assume is just the high level inputs on the sub? Does the sub actually have a high pass filter for the speakers? Why not simply use the bass management in the avr? What PSB sub is it particularly?

I have been pulling the "get a sub" trigger kinda fast lately, huh? Shoot first and ask questions later!

I should have asked that first myself. You can do worse than PSB when it comes to subwoofers, but there are some better options out there and depending on your room size, model and usage you might realize a nice sonic upgrade with a new one (or 2!).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, the $700 RX-A780 is similar to the $600 RX-V6, and the RX-V6 can output 180 Watts x 2Ch into 4 ohms continuous (ASR website). So it should have enough power. The LS50 is rated for 25-100W.

 

[EBN]

Integrated amps aren't magic....they're just old receivers without tuners or digital capabilities or bass management for the most part

Say that to your typical 2ch audiophile and he might disagree with you. Expensive speakers and cheap av-receiver which is packed with features while the PSU side is shrinked due to added features and new stams on front of receiver which the manufacturer has to pay. The compromises are then done with the internal parts like you see in Yamaha RX-A860 review on this site! The DACs are low level cheap on these receivers (ESS comes at 1000 range up) and the implementation is poor as we can see from the ASR measurements.

I have seen countless members adding good 2ch integrated amp (incl. better DAC) to Denon X3xxxH level receiver and it has sounded lot better for music listening! This is done at home with the option to return.

 

[EBN]

Yeah, the $700 RX-A780 is similar to the $600 RX-V6, and the RX-V6 can output 180 Watts x 2Ch into 4 ohms continuous (ASR website). So it should have enough power. The LS50 is rated for 25-100W.

That is with 1% THD max power so quite pointless. Here is the figures you should be looking for with lower distortion:

 

[Pogre]

Say that to your typical 2ch audiophile and he might disagree with you. Expensive speakers and cheap av-receiver which is packed with features while the PSU side is shrinked due to added features and new stams on front of receiver which the manufacturer has to pay. The compromises are then done with the internal parts like you see in Yamaha RX-A860 review on this site! The DACs are low level cheap on these receivers (ESS comes at 1000 range up) and the implementation is poor as we can see from the ASR measurements.

I have seen countless members adding good 2ch integrated amp (incl. better DAC) to Denon X3xxxH level receiver and it has sounded lot better for music listening! This is done at home with the option to return.

You're on a site surrounded by audiophiles who do disagree with you. You should read through some more threads here. Debunking audiophoolery is kinda what they do here...

I'm not against bigger, better badder by any stretch of the imagination, but if there are any limits to a budget the receiver/amp is where I'd pinch from. Most competent manufacturers now can build even mid tier models fully capable of driving those speakers and will sound just as good as long as you stay within operating specs and everything else is equal (level matched, defeat any eq).

If you can find a DBT resulting in any "audiophile" able to hear a difference between a high dollar boutique amp or a mid tier receiver I'd like to see it. Every time I've heard about one nobody could consistently pick one over another.

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

A lot of what ASR beats up on over there mostly falls below the range of audibility, and he even concedes that in a lot of his reviews! If you're a numbers geek and you want the best of the best then ASR has some relevant measurements for you. We're not talking actual big time audible differences here tho. If you're on a budget a $1000 receiver is plenty for great sound with most reasonable to drive speakers (such as the LS50). There are better ways to spend your money than lateral moves like upgrading receivers and amplifiers. If you want to hear the difference that's gonna be in speakers, subs or even some eq.

 

[lovinthehd]

Say that to your typical 2ch audiophile and he might disagree with you. Expensive speakers and cheap av-receiver which is packed with features while the PSU side is shrinked due to added features and new stams on front of receiver which the manufacturer has to pay. The compromises are then done with the internal parts like you see in Yamaha RX-A860 review on this site! The DACs are low level cheap on these receivers (ESS comes at 1000 range up) and the implementation is poor as we can see from the ASR measurements.

I have seen countless members adding good 2ch integrated amp (incl. better DAC) to Denon X3xxxH level receiver and it has sounded lot better for music listening! This is done at home with the option to return.

Likewise I've seen plenty of comments from those who've done more extensive comparisons and come away with the opinion it doesn't matter....2ch audiophile being a bit of a loon generally in any case so really don't care what that lot says in general. I've played around with lots of gear, too, 2ch included....I used separates back in my 2ch days and still have a few, too, but not used as frequently as my avrs, not due sound quality differences but for the feature set. The DACs are transparent and most differences in spec are inaudible. YMMV.

 

[EBN]

That is why i said for the OP to get a home demo and listen does the 2ch integrated amp sound better. Usually it does if quality product (K3), but it´s pointless and waste of time to argue with you guys as this forum is heavily against them i know. Most hifi shops do offer home demo option if one is seriously buying something so easy to do the comparison at home and then make decision.

 

[Pogre]

I have seen countless members adding good 2ch integrated amp (incl. better DAC) to Denon X3xxxH level receiver and it has sounded lot better for music listening! This is done at home with the option to return.

Didn't Amir say that the Denon X3600H, a lowly mid tier receiver, put up some of the best numbers he's ever measured, beating out some pretty "high end" competition?

That's pretty damned impressive, even by Amir's standards!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That is with 1% THD max power so quite pointless.

Why is it pointless?

Will the amp be going at full max volume the whole listening session?

Will the Amp Shut Down if THD ever reaches 1.0%?

Can you actually hear 1% THD when listening at 95-100dB Volume from 12Ft away (in order to reach 1% THD), especially in your house with AC, heater, and all other noises on top of the loud music?

From what I've read over the past 30 years, most audio experts don't think we (NON-GOLDEN-EARS) cannot hear THD of 1%, especially when listening to music and movies at normal volume.

Maybe we could hear THD of 1% if we are NOT listening to music and movies and the room is DEAD Silent. But we are talking about listening to Music and Movies.

And if 1% THD Power output is POINTLESS, why do Gene (AH), Amir (ASR) and everyone else over the last 30 years have always measured 1% THD Power Output?

I mean why even measure 1% THD Power for the last 30 years if it's pointless?

 

[killdozzer]

@lbutron

Most people hear the difference with good integrated stereo amp vs. cheaper receiver in 2ch listening, at least when heard at home w/ pair of quality speakers. The LS50s are often called mini reference. Would any real audiophile use those with lower range av-receiver? Perhaps if you give them couple lines of cocain and whiskey shots while getting lapdance from Jessica Alba. Otherwise not possible.

The 700 range Aventage is basically identical to RX-V6xx with Aventage stamp and middle feet. The better products with Yamaha starts A10x0 upwards. You should look quality 2ch amp with HT-bypass! See link below:

Amplifiers with HT-bypass - update 27. October 2024

Audiophile.no has made a list of stereo preamps and integrated amps that have one sort of HT-bypass. This list is updated 27. October 2024 with preamplifiers from Teac, and will be will be continuously updated. Written by Karl Erik Sylthe, at 15.02.07 Translated to English in june 2008Latest...

www.audiophile.no

Try to get home demo so you will hear the difference yourself!

Quite a lousy advice to give to someone. You went over most of misconceptions in just a few posts. Most people do NOT hear the difference. What they hear and what most regularly disappears in DBT is the workings of their brain, also that's the reason it disappears. If an audiophile is an idiot, you shouldn't listen to him anyway. Not that they all are, but it's easy enough to spot one; it's the one recommending others his on biases. (Cocaine and Jessica Alba, really?)

Antoher thing, why would you come to a really good, fact based forum and then post a link to some utter trash with few dozen k$ tube amps like Ayon?

Compromises need to come up in actual testing, otherwise, are they really compromises.

Countless members of what and where, you forgot to mention?

2 channels and a better DAC are not in themselves a guarantee of a better performance. Only better performance is and once an AVR is transparent and matched properly to speaker's demands, there's nothing left to be outperformed.

"Take it home and give it a listen" is not a fair way to judge or assess gear. If the potential buyer finds it pretty it will always "sound better", also if it's expensive it will ALMOST always "sound better".

This site has ABSOLUTELY nothing against anything that performs better, that's not a fair statement to members here. It just needs to be something that can be proven and audible at the same time. But what it doesn't really hold close to heart are the people who say; this is better 'cause I say so and you should buy that.

As @Pogre rightly said, some AVRs wipe floors with what you hold to be quality product.

 

[killdozzer]

Hi I´m planning an Amp upgrade my current setup is 70-30 (Music-Movies) in small room 13x14 ft.
I mostly stream Classic Rock & Jazz whit Roon (No turntable, a few times CD´s) :
-Yamaha AVR Avantage RX-780, 95 watts per channel, with 2 channels driven
-Cambridge Audio CXN V2 streamer
-Pioneer BDP-320 CD/Blu-ray Player (rearly use)
-Kef LS50 (whit kef Stans)
-PSB Sub 10" Connected via High Pas to the AVR / the Kef´s are connected to the high pass out of the sub.

What i´m looking is to upgrade the amp as i think the Yamaha AVR i´ts holding me back, I know for past expirience that its better to wait an strech you budget to get the best gear, than go for something cheaper an then sell it back, my options are:

1) CA CXA81 it will match perfectly whit the CXN,
2) Also I have an option to get the CX80 *used* for half the price, my concerns here are if there are any worth imporvments in getting the CXA81 vs CXA80, I know there are some DAC improvements over one an other, but i´ts a sonic or amp improvements? I´m thinking long term here, I don´t want to sell the CXA80 in few months because I need "or think i need" an upgrade, also less important and only a piky idea is the color miss march (CXNV2 Lunar Grey vs CXA80 Silver )
3) Roksan K3 almost 50% more $$$ than a CXA81 where i live, i will have to wait a little more time as this is out of my budget right know.

Most of what you consider is simply overpriced. Cambridge Audio slightly and Roxan considerably. Out of those choices I could only recommend the one you can get very cheap to cut the needless spending.

But let's take it one step at the time; you feel Yamaha is holding you back how? Try and determine what is it you're actually unhappy with. Don't just suppose that there's something out there and you're chasing it but don't know what it is.

If you allow me to try and earn some of your trust; I have KEF LS50. I played these with 2x35Wpch into 8 NAD (which BTW appeared as the strongest simply bc the volume pot would reach max at "10 o'clock"), 2 x 150Wpch into 8 THX NAD separates, 2 x 200Wpch into 8 Hitachi Dynaharmony separates, 2x65Wpch into 8 AVR Yamaha and 2x50Wpch into 8 another Yamaha AVR. Today I have them hooked up with a 2x110Wpch into 8 Yamaha and in all honesty, I swaped the last AVR for this amp because it has a MC phono, not because I expected or got any SQ improvement.

Old NADs used to have a distinctive sound signature and I'm not a sound signature type. Other than that I heard no difference in any of the rest of them.

But you know what; when I moved some furniture around, all of a sudden they became very harsh and would pierce my ears. I thought I was in trouble. I didn't know what's wrong with them. And then, I straightened them (no toe in) I sepparated them just one foot further away from one another and just slightly brought them closer to rear walls, just 2 or 3 inches. Harshness went away completely.

There's a chance Yamaha is not your problem.

 

[EBN]

Why is it pointless?

Will the amp be going at full max volume the whole listening session?

Will the Amp Shut Down if THD ever reaches 1.0%?

Can you actually hear 1% THD when listening at 95-100dB Volume from 12Ft away (in order to reach 1% THD), especially in your house with AC, heater, and all other noises on top of the loud music?

From what I've read over the past 30 years, most audio experts don't think we (NON-GOLDEN-EARS) cannot hear THD of 1%, especially when listening to music and movies at normal volume.

Maybe we could hear THD of 1% if we are NOT listening to music and movies and the room is DEAD Silent. But we are talking about listening to Music and Movies.

And if 1% THD Power output is POINTLESS, why do Gene (AH), Amir (ASR) and everyone else over the last 30 years have always measured 1% THD Power Output?

I mean why even measure 1% THD Power for the last 30 years if it's pointless?

Usually when we talk about specs we talk about the ones with 0,05% - 0,08% THD figures. That´s why Amir does the other test with rated distortion which is lower than those manufacturer specs. I think @PENG has been talking about 0,1% being some kind of limit. SoundAndVision has always printed 0,1% and 1% power output measurements. Anyway i mostly look those manufacturer lower THD specs and those are often talked cause the higher THD can be 1ch driven etc.

 

[EBN]

Didn't Amir say that the Denon X3600H, a lowly mid tier receiver, put up some of the best numbers he's ever measured, beating out some pretty "high end" competition?

View attachment 44046

That's pretty damned impressive, even by Amir's standards!

Yep true, but people have had 4000 & 6000 serie models at home too and they didn´t sound as good in Pure Direct mode as some good integrated amp. Do you trust parrots on audio forum or your own ears when doing A/B test at home without pressure from dealer and he´s sweet talks?!

The guy has LS50 speakers and low cost budget receiver and the whole forum goes crazy..

This wasn`t all receivers sounds bad with music listening, no! I was specifically commenting about the low cost RX-V600 level receiver vs. some good integrated stereo amp!

 

[Pogre]

Yep true, but people have had 4000 & 6000 serie models at home too and they didn´t sound as good in Pure Direct mode as some good integrated amp. Do you trust parrots on audio forum or your own ears when doing A/B test at home without pressure from dealer and he´s sweet talks?!

The guy has LS50 speakers and low cost budget receiver and the whole forum goes crazy..

This wasn`t all receivers sounds bad with music listening, no! I was specifically commenting about the low cost RX-V600 level receiver vs. some good integrated stereo amp!

I trust DBTs and my own ears. To my knowledge neither of those has produced any evidence that there are any really audible differences when you take bias out of the equation.

 

[EBN]

Quite a lousy advice to give to someone. You went over most of misconceptions in just a few posts. Most people do NOT hear the difference. What they hear and what most regularly disappears in DBT is the workings of their brain, also that's the reason it disappears. If an audiophile is an idiot, you shouldn't listen to him anyway. Not that they all are, but it's easy enough to spot one; it's the one recommending others his on biases. (Cocaine and Jessica Alba, really?)

Antoher thing, why would you come to a really good, fact based forum and then post a link to some utter trash with few dozen k$ tube amps like Ayon?

Compromises need to come up in actual testing, otherwise, are they really compromises.

Countless members of what and where, you forgot to mention?

2 channels and a better DAC are not in themselves a guarantee of a better performance. Only better performance is and once an AVR is transparent and matched properly to speaker's demands, there's nothing left to be outperformed.

"Take it home and give it a listen" is not a fair way to judge or assess gear. If the potential buyer finds it pretty it will always "sound better", also if it's expensive it will ALMOST always "sound better".

This site has ABSOLUTELY nothing against anything that performs better, that's not a fair statement to members here. It just needs to be something that can be proven and audible at the same time. But what it doesn't really hold close to heart are the people who say; this is better 'cause I say so and you should buy that.

As @Pogre rightly said, some AVRs wipe floors with what you hold to be quality product.

Maybe it was bad joke for old grumpy dude like yourself, but there was nothing wrong in that post! He has cheap receiver which you can buy from market for low cost, sadly the Aventage version will cost more while adding mostly longer warranty.

This is why i rarely write here, persons like you make me so angry with the attacking attitude! Maybe you don´t hear the difference with budget receiver and good speakers like LS50 vs. better amp, but MANY does! You can tell me all the double blind tests, Floyd Toole quotes, the fact that it costs more has to be better etc. But there is still people who can hear the gear being step up from low cost av-receiver! I didn´t say buy high end amp either, you know there is people who spend silly amount of money for the amp to drive LS50 just google. He has the models looked out and he could start with those at home. No pressure to buy anything.

The link i posted has certain models which has HT By-Pass feature which i think would be usefull as he can then use it with movies taking some load off from receiver. The Roksan K3 model mentioned has it for example.

 

[Mikado463]

sad, 5 days into this thread and you have scared the Op away with usual back and forth bickering ..............