To Biamp or not

[killdozzer]

I really appreciate all the feedback. I read that ARV’s really over estimate their power ratings and looking at my AVR, it‘s rated at 140 watts with only 2 channels driven and when mores channels are used it;s more like 65 watts per channel. Thats the main reason I was looking to add an amp.

Oh no, by no means, your AVR is quite conservatively speced at 140 2 channels driven with the range of 20Hz to 20kHz and with admirable THD of 0.06% into 8ohms and remember that that gets lower with lower levels listening. It is quite, quite good. You have no reason whatsoever to think it's 65W.

 

[mazersteven]

Where's @PENG

 

[RP1]

Oh no, by no means, your AVR is quite conservatively speced at 140 2 channels driven with the range of 20Hz to 20kHz and with admirable THD of 0.06% into 8ohms and remember that that gets lower with lower levels listening. It is quite, quite good. You have no reason whatsoever to think it's 65W.

So your basically saying I’d waste money on an AMP to feed them more power.

 

[Gmoney]

@PENG get in here please! I only have this very small iphone with a very small keyboard it would take me a hour to post specs, facts and links. Gene's article on Bi-amping that loveinthehd posted up with the link nails it on Bi-amping. @gene goes Into detail waaay better than I can in explaining it in layman's terms. I only say that cause even Gene has said trying to explain in layman's terms isn't always easy to do.

 

[mazersteven]

So your basically saying I’d waste money on an AMP to feed them more power.

I think the OP is beginning to get the picture

 

[killdozzer]

So your basically saying I’d waste money on an AMP to feed them more power.

I've checked the specs for your particular model of speakers and for the AVR you stated you have and just for you I double checked; having a solid 140Wpch into 8ohms I do honestly believe you'd just be wasting your money.

That AVR can do some genuine heavy lifting.

 

[PENG]

Even with running 5 channels?

The first thing to do should be to figure out your power need based on you speaker sensitivity, seating distance and your desired maximum spl (sound pressure level). There are many online calculators that you can use and it should only take a minute to do. The most often linked one is:

Peak SPL Calculator (homestead.com)

Without the calculated results, based on bench test results of your AVR, I have to agree with others that your AVR is a powerful one, relatively speaking. If you want to gain some headroom by using it with an external amp, you should get one rated at least 250 W into 8 ohms and 400 W into 4 ohms because for just 3 dB headroom gain, you need 2X the power output.

Below are from a German bench tests:

162 W into 4 Ohms, 5 channel driven!! Mind you that's most likely @1% THD, but that's still impressive.

Yamaha RX-A2080 (Test) – audiovision

Now compare the above results to that of the Arcam power amplifier P777, tested by the same lab:

Not a whole lot of difference.. You can compare it with other 5 to 7 channel power amps by Onkyo, and Marantz and you will find that there isn't much of a gain in output either.

 

[RP1]

The first thing to do should be to figure out your power need based on you speaker sensitivity, seating distance and your desired maximum spl (sound pressure level). There are many online calculators that you can use and it should only take a minute to do. The most often linked one is:

Peak SPL Calculator (homestead.com)

Without the calculated results, based on bench test results of your AVR, I have to agree with others that your AVR is a powerful one, relatively speaking. If you want to gain some headroom by using it with an external amp, you should get one rated at least 250 W into 8 ohms and 400 W into 4 ohms because for just 3 dB headroom gain, you need 2X the power output.

Below are from a German bench tests:

162 W into 4 Ohms, 5 channel driven!! Mind you that's most likely @1% THD, but that's still impressive.

Yamaha RX-A2080 (Test) – audiovision

View attachment 43129

Now compare the above results to that of the Arcam power amplifier P777, tested by the same lab:

View attachment 43131

Not a whole lot of difference.. You can compare it with other 5 to 7 channel power amps by Onkyo, and Marantz and you will find that there isn't much of a gain in output either.

WOW! You guys blew my mind not to mention saved me a few grand. I can’t thank you guys enough for your honesty and quick reply‘s. If any of you need help with car detailing info let me know. I can certainly provide you with the same helpful info. Again thank you all so much.

 

[mazersteven]

@RP1 so now that the Mathematical/Measurement Guru Peng has given his Blessing - Do You Believe?

 

[RP1]

@RP1 so now that the Mathematical/Measurement Guru Peng has given his Blessing - Do You Believe?

Absolutely, it wasn’t that I didn’t believe It’s just so confusing. The more you read the more Corn-Fused you get.

 

[PENG]

So your basically saying I’d waste money on an AMP to feed them more power.

Put it this way, if the calculator shows you need less than 50 WPC to get you the maximum spl you want, then yes I would say you'd be wasting money on "an amp to feed them more power", because they are not going to bite a bit if they don't have the need.

Loudspeakers will only draw the current they need to produce the spl you want, you cannot force feed them even if you try!!

There are other advantages of using external amp(s) though.

 

[ryanosaur]

you cannot force feed them even if you try!!

So what your saying, PENG, is that you can lead a Speaker to water but you can’t make it drink!

 

[mazersteven]

 

[RP1]

Put it this way, if the calculator shows you need less than 50 WPC to get you the maximum spl you want, then yes I would say you'd be wasting money on "an amp to feed them more power", because they are not going to bite a bit if they don't have the need.

Loudspeakers will only draw the current they need to produce the spl you want, you cannot force feed them even if you try!!

There are other advantages of using external amp(s) though.

What are some of the other advantages

 

[mazersteven]

What are some of the other advantages

I new it. LOL

 

[RP1]

I new it. LOL

I’m looking for an education.

 

[EthicalEar]

Your saying your highly efficient speakers require more power. And what audible "performance" differences did you hear?

Also you are saying what I did doesn't count as bi-amping? I believe theoretically there is no difference. What I did is actually a better way. Again it's not the end of the argument but I can hear quite clearly that it makes a big difference. The difference is in the variables. Speaker type. Watts to each driver set. Quality of components and what volume you want to hear all the details for. All I hear is bi-amping is useless. That is not true. I am not saying your advice to RP1 is wrong, it may be best for his set up. But until one works through each variable there is a chance it could be helpful. As in my case when perhaps the 125 watts alone was not enough power, my solution worked.
When running 125 watts to 1 speaker (4 drivers) I had to turn the volume way up to get the same effect I had when running 125 watts to 2 of the drivers and another 125 watts to the other 2 drivers of the speaker. So, instead of using my Sony ZA5000ES which is 130 watts in combination with the Anthem, I chose to use the Anthem's 4 channels to send equal power to both. Thus no concerns on matching watts from amps that don't provide an accurate rating. Regardless if a completely separate amp or a 4 channel amp, the result was significant. 125x2 was better, cleaner sound at a low to normal volume than 125x1. Sure when you make it loud it doesn't make as much difference but I believe I did hear more treble distortion with 125 watts loud. But at low levels, more power to the drivers made the speakers shine. I realize perhaps 125 may not be enough to drive the P95Fs sufficiently at low volumes. A more powerful amp isn't possible for me at this time so, someday down the road an Anthem MCA 325 may do the job. Lastly, I didn't say my speakers were highly efficient. Klipsch requires very little power to drive them, I have them and replaced them with the dimes. The dimes do require more power to sound good.

 

[ryanosaur]

Why would highly skilled and respected speaker designers tell us that bi-amping is a waste? These are cat's whose only benefit is in making their speakers sound BETTER! And they will tell you to do it if you want, but it won't make a difference.
No.
I could put two of my Outlaw Monos on each of my towers, potentially delivering as much as 250w to each of the High and Low terminals... But that does not mean my speaker is somehow being juiced with 500w, nor will the circuits and drivers allow for that.
At 85dB, my speakers will still be using ~1w, with the more efficient smaller drivers drawing less than the larger and less efficient woofer. Any Impedance correcting circuitry in the XOs will still be converting electricity to heat to burn off... NOTHING CHANGES IN THE SYSTEM.

What changes is ones expectation.

Your Speakers, using the more conservative sensitivity figure of 91dB will likely never draw more than 32w. Unless of course you are abusing your hearing somethin' fierce.
The only thing that may cause your Speakers to require an Amp capable of delivering more current is if they present a difficult load. Look at Polk and B&W as examples, where they dip down below 4 ohms in the lower frequency ranges and have very bad phase angles at their impedance minima.
You can see here, from Stereophile (paragraph 3), this is not the case:

These Speakers are relatively benign in that regard and most Amps capable of outputting ~64w into 4 Ohms should handle these quite comfortably.

 

[Mikado463]

Op, regardless of the mountains of wisdom brought forth here 'bi-amping' can be a useful tool depending on how it is performed. Speaker type / amplifier type can play into this equation. I suspect in your situation you are best served by heeding their advice.

 

[RP1]

Op, regardless of the mountains of wisdom brought forth here 'bi-amping' can be a useful tool depending on how it is performed. Speaker type / amplifier type can play into this equation. I suspect in your situation you are best served by heeding their advice.

Oh I’m already convinced that in my case it’s just a waste of money for the potential gain I may get. Of course assuming I can hear that difference. I’m 62 and my hearing is only going to get worse from here on out. Again I really appreciate all the great advice.