Shorter and longer term AVR solution

[TechToys2]

I feel a bit like I'm beating a dead horse with some of my questions, but I have been spinning a bit and would appreciate opinions, realizing they are just that. So please bear with me.

As I have mentioned in prior threads, I recently purchased a Marantz Sr6014 on sale for $899 (plus tax), which was intended as a replacement for a 20 year old Rotel receiver that has a hum (determined after troubleshooting to be a receiver issue) as well as no HDMI, etc. It has a return window until January 31.

The Marantz is a nice unit and I generally like it, but I honestly don't feel it is on the same level as the Rotel it is intended to replace (others may disagree). As I have also mentioned in other threads, I continue to tweak things and try various settings to get the sound to my liking. Anyway, I would like to try some higher level/priced receivers to decide for myself if there is any/enough difference to warrant the additional cost.

I would like to look at the 2021 Yamaha Aventage receivers, the Anthem MRX540 and MRX740 and the NAD T778 -- and perhaps an upper end Marantz or Denon (although they add more channels that I do not need). As these receivers have either just recently been released or have not even been released yet, the timing presents a problem. Additionally, even if they were all available, I would like to wait until the dust settles, bugs are worked out and people have some experience with them so I would not essentially be a beta tester should I buy one. Prices also may come down a bit.

I have narrowed my current options down to the following and would like to hear your thoughts:

(1) Keep the 6014 for a year or 2 (perhaps longer) in order for things to get worked out with HDMI 2.1 and to get some history on the new AVRs. (Any ballpark how much I would be able to sell it for after a year or 2 if I decided to do that?)

(2) Buy a Yamaha TSR-700 from Costco for $330 as a temporary solution and the lowest cost of entry. I can sell it when I decide what I want and presumably the $$ loss would not be as great as the 6014?

(3) Keep using the Rotel for another few months so I can at least wait for the release of all of the new AVRs. This has a few issues as I see it: (i) I either have to continue using a receiver with a hum or pay to get it fixed (if cost effective); (ii) Once I return the 6014, I no longer have the ability to compare it to other receivers and I would have to pay more to replace it with a current model should I decide it doesn't make sense to "upgrade"; and (iii) I would likely want to do something sooner rather than later --and, as I said, I generally prefer not to jump on a newly released electronic product.

I'm open to other ideas as well.

Thanks for humoring me.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think (1) sounds best.

 

[mazersteven]

Just guessing I would expect that that 6014 would retail around $699 in 2 years. And probably be refurb units out there for $500 bucks. So you would have to sell it for under that. Where as that Yamaha from Costco retails at $599 now on sale for $329. I'm guessing in 2 years you might be able to sell for almost what you're paid

 

[snakeeyes]

I would choose option 2. $329 is a great deal.

 

[PENG]

I would say that Rotel (read about it from your after thread) is not as good as the SR6014 no matter how you look at it, based on specs and measurements (amazingly Rotel did include measurements albeit their own, back then).

Based on your rationale, option 2 seems the best because it limits your exposure, as long as it can drive your speakers to the level you need right now. It will be long wait imo, as the dust won't settle until some time next year, more likely closer to the end of 2021.

 

[Sachb]

I feel a bit like I'm beating a dead horse with some of my questions, but I have been spinning a bit and would appreciate opinions, realizing they are just that. So please bear with me.

As I have mentioned in prior threads, I recently purchased a Marantz Sr6014 on sale for $899 (plus tax), which was intended as a replacement for a 20 year old Rotel receiver that has a hum (determined after troubleshooting to be a receiver issue) as well as no HDMI, etc. It has a return window until January 31.

The Marantz is a nice unit and I generally like it, but I honestly don't feel it is on the same level as the Rotel it is intended to replace (others may disagree). As I have also mentioned in other threads, I continue to tweak things and try various settings to get the sound to my liking. Anyway, I would like to try some higher level/priced receivers to decide for myself if there is any/enough difference to warrant the additional cost.

I would like to look at the 2021 Yamaha Aventage receivers, the Anthem MRX540 and MRX740 and the NAD T778 -- and perhaps an upper end Marantz or Denon (although they add more channels that I do not need). As these receivers have either just recently been released or have not even been released yet, the timing presents a problem. Additionally, even if they were all available, I would like to wait until the dust settles, bugs are worked out and people have some experience with them so I would not essentially be a beta tester should I buy one. Prices also may come down a bit.

I have narrowed my current options down to the following and would like to hear your thoughts:

(1) Keep the 6014 for a year or 2 (perhaps longer) in order for things to get worked out with HDMI 2.1 and to get some history on the new AVRs. (Any ballpark how much I would be able to sell it for after a year or 2 if I decided to do that?)

(2) Buy a Yamaha TSR-700 from Costco for $330 as a temporary solution and the lowest cost of entry. I can sell it when I decide what I want and presumably the $$ loss would not be as great as the 6014?

(3) Keep using the Rotel for another few months so I can at least wait for the release of all of the new AVRs. This has a few issues as I see it: (i) I either have to continue using a receiver with a hum or pay to get it fixed (if cost effective); (ii) Once I return the 6014, I no longer have the ability to compare it to other receivers and I would have to pay more to replace it with a current model should I decide it doesn't make sense to "upgrade"; and (iii) I would likely want to do something sooner rather than later --and, as I said, I generally prefer not to jump on a newly released electronic product.

I'm open to other ideas as well.

Thanks for humoring me.

2) Option seems right, get the yamaha TSR700 costcco for now, and sell that crappy humming rotel of yours, so that you still have the cash for the future upgrade to 2021 Aventage line-up which will release around late january to early Feb 2021.

I sold my Denon X2300W, & bought a pair of white Speaker stands for my elac.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

2) Option seems right, get the yamaha TSR700 costcco for now, and sell that crappy humming marantz of yours, so that you still have the cash for the future upgrade to 2021 Aventage line-up which will release around late january to early Feb 2021.

I sold my Denon X2300W, & bought a pair of white Speaker stands for my elac.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

Hey, read all the words. The Rotel has the hum.

 

[Sachb]

Hey, read all the words. The Rotel has the hum.

Ok, my mistake. Edited

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ok, my mistake. Edited

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

Oh btw, thanks for all the thumbs down and dumb ratings. Iirc, you called me immature. Interesting...
@mazersteven
@killdozzer
@lovinthehd
@Trebdp83
And anyone else who’s did anything not in yamahas favor, have you been receiving these reactions? I don’t care if I earn some dumb ratings, but this is just out of spite.
Can this guy be removed yet?

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh btw, thanks for all the thumbs down and dumb ratings. Iirc, you called me immature. Interesting...
@mazersteven
@killdozzer
@lovinthehd
@Trebdp83
And anyone else who’s did anything not in yamahas favor, have you been receiving these reactions? I don’t care if I earn some dumb ratings, but this is just out of spite.
Can this guy be removed yet?

I mostly try to ignore his nonsense.

 

[Sachb]

@TechToys2 Have you tried the multieq app on Marantz? You need to limit the eq to 500 hz or 300 hz on Audyssey.

I got rid of Denon/Audyssey as it never sounded right to me for music, but it doesn't hurt trying before jumping on any of the options you mentioned.

If nothing works then option 2 would be the best bet.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[Sachb]

Oh btw, thanks for all the thumbs down and dumb ratings. Iirc, you called me immature. Interesting...
@mazersteven
@killdozzer
@lovinthehd
@Trebdp83
And anyone else who’s did anything not in yamahas favor, have you been receiving these reactions? I don’t care if I earn some dumb ratings, but this is just out of spite.
Can this guy be removed yet?

So now you brought your personal issues to this thread. Why are you hijacking this thread? Are we sore enemies? You had the need to tag all of them.. , what are you 18? Grow up lad. I'm gonna put you in the ignore list.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[TechToys2]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the thoughts and feedback.

@mazersteven, thanks for your thoughts on possible resale (I appreciate it is just speculation). While the RX-V6 retails for $599, I think the TSR-700 iteration at Costco is regularly $399 for whatever reason. So if they still have them at the point I was looking to sell, I would suppose that would drag the used price down. But your point is well taken.

@PENG would you be so kind as to explain to me how to compare the specs of the Rotel to the Marantz? Sorry, but I don't think I really understand what the numbers mean. Despite reading about this stuff, I often feel like I'm looking at a different language and I don't quite get what it means in practical terms. I can say that absent the hum (which is covered up beyond a relatively low volume), the Rotel sounds excellent. On a related note, I am not really sure what it is doing, particularly with respect to the bass, as there is no way to manually set the crossover or choose LFE vs LFE & Main (although I have speakers are set to small.

@Sachb Yes, I have the app and am going to rerun Audyssey (I reset the receiver and have everything set up manually at the moment) and play with the frequency range filter.

I think what I am likely going to do is order a TSR-700 and try it side by side with the 6014. Costco's return policy makes things very easy. I suspect I will like the 6014 better (I understand their GUI is nicer and Audyssey is generally preferred by most over YPAO) but I''ll see. I am also a little concerned about the reports of various glitches on the new Yamahas.

Knock on wood, the 6014 seems to be working well, and there is something to be said for that. Since I may ultimately wind up keeping whichever receiver I decide on in the short term rather than "upgrading", I might be willing to take the bigger financial risk. But if it turns out I have no significant preference between the the Marantz and the Yamaha (even though it is an entry level receiver), I suppose it would make sense to keep the lower priced one.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I feel a bit like I'm beating a dead horse with some of my questions, but I have been spinning a bit and would appreciate opinions, realizing they are just that. So please bear with me.

As I have mentioned in prior threads, I recently purchased a Marantz Sr6014 on sale for $899 (plus tax), which was intended as a replacement for a 20 year old Rotel receiver that has a hum (determined after troubleshooting to be a receiver issue) as well as no HDMI, etc. It has a return window until January 31.

The Marantz is a nice unit and I generally like it, but I honestly don't feel it is on the same level as the Rotel it is intended to replace (others may disagree). As I have also mentioned in other threads, I continue to tweak things and try various settings to get the sound to my liking. Anyway, I would like to try some higher level/priced receivers to decide for myself if there is any/enough difference to warrant the additional cost.

I would like to look at the 2021 Yamaha Aventage receivers, the Anthem MRX540 and MRX740 and the NAD T778 -- and perhaps an upper end Marantz or Denon (although they add more channels that I do not need). As these receivers have either just recently been released or have not even been released yet, the timing presents a problem. Additionally, even if they were all available, I would like to wait until the dust settles, bugs are worked out and people have some experience with them so I would not essentially be a beta tester should I buy one. Prices also may come down a bit.

I have narrowed my current options down to the following and would like to hear your thoughts:

(1) Keep the 6014 for a year or 2 (perhaps longer) in order for things to get worked out with HDMI 2.1 and to get some history on the new AVRs. (Any ballpark how much I would be able to sell it for after a year or 2 if I decided to do that?)

(2) Buy a Yamaha TSR-700 from Costco for $330 as a temporary solution and the lowest cost of entry. I can sell it when I decide what I want and presumably the $$ loss would not be as great as the 6014?

(3) Keep using the Rotel for another few months so I can at least wait for the release of all of the new AVRs. This has a few issues as I see it: (i) I either have to continue using a receiver with a hum or pay to get it fixed (if cost effective); (ii) Once I return the 6014, I no longer have the ability to compare it to other receivers and I would have to pay more to replace it with a current model should I decide it doesn't make sense to "upgrade"; and (iii) I would likely want to do something sooner rather than later --and, as I said, I generally prefer not to jump on a newly released electronic product.

I'm open to other ideas as well.

Thanks for humoring me.

2 questions.

1. Do you intend on using 8K TV or need HDMI 2.1? If not, a high-end AVR with HDMI 2.0b is a good option. For example, the Yamaha RX-A3080.

2. Do you care about room correction EQ like Audyssey? If you gotta have Audyssey, then a high-end Marantz or Denon would be the solution.

 

[TechToys2]

2 questions.

1. Do you intend on using 8K TV or need HDMI 2.1? If not, a high-end AVR with HDMI 2.0b is a good option. For example, the Yamaha RX-A3080.

2. Do you care about room correction EQ like Audyssey? If you gotta have Audyssey, then a high-end Marantz or Denon would be the solution.

1. No. I can't imagine I would need it. I'm not even on 4K yet, although looking to possibly going to an OLED from plasma in the not too distant future. I am not a gamer, so that is not an issue either.

2. I'm not sure if I can answer this yet as I have not had room correction in the past. I thought room correction would be very helpful and was excited about Audyssey, but so far I have not had the success I had hoped. That may, however, be more on me, so the jury is still out.

By the way, I know that Yamaha was going to do one final run of the RX-A3080 (and I actually received a notice from a vendor that I could order a 2080 for delivery in 2-4 weeks), but since they are not discounting them, I was thinking it might make more sense to wait for the newer versions rather than paying for the older tech (whether I need it now or not)

 

[PENG]

would you be so kind as to explain to me how to compare the specs of the Rotel to the Marantz? Sorry, but I don't think I really understand what the numbers mean. Despite reading about this stuff, I often feel like I'm looking at a different language and I don't quite get what it means in practical terms. I can say that absent the hum (which is covered up beyond a relatively low volume), the Rotel sounds excellent. On a related note, I am not really sure what it is doing, particularly with respect to the bass, as there is no way to manually set the crossover or choose LFE vs LFE & Main (although I have speakers are set to small.

No problem, I'll try my best.
Some of the frequently quoted specs are:
- THD+N (Total harmonic distortions plus noise) in % or dB (with the "-" sign, e.g. -90 dB), the lower number the better.
- DNR (signal to noise ratio), the higher the better, but pay attention to the "weighting" in order to compare apples to apples.
- IMD (inter modulation distortions), like THD, the lower the better.

According to the manual, the Rotel has the following audio specs:

Continuous Amplifier Power 20–20k Hz, <0.09% THD, 8 ohms: 75 watts/ch (all channels driven) 1kHz, <1.0% THD, 8 ohms, DIN: 100 watts/ch (all channels driven)

Total Harmonic Distortion: <0.09% at rated power
Intermodulation Distortion (60 Hz: 7 kHz): <0.09% at rated power
Frequency Response (line level): 10 Hz - 70 kHz, ± 3 dB
Signal to Noise Ratio (IHF “A” weighted): 92 dB (Stereo) 70 dB (Dolby Digital)

Now compare that to the your SR6014's:

110 W + 110 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
10 Hz – 100 kHz — +1, –3 dB (Direct mode)
Digital
D/A output: Rated output — 2 V (at 0 dB playback)
Total harmonic distortion — 0.008 % (1 kHz, at 0 dB)
S/N ratio — 102 dB
Dynamic range — 100 dB

So you can see that the Rotel does not have better audio specs, I would say comparable. I also compared the SR6014's bench measurements, and its measured THD+N did meet or exceed the specified numbers. In the Rotel's service manual, I thought they included some measurements but when I read it again, I realized they were left blanked, I mistaken the specs for measurements the first time I took a quick glance.

To understand the specs and numbers, below are some useful links:
For audio terminologies:

Audio Terms and Definitions | Audioholics

More detailed explanation of specs:

Easy to read ones:

5 Important Specifications To Consider When Choosing An Amplifier | Cambridge Audio

Audio Specifications (ranecommercial.com)

Mathew-AudioPrecisionSpecifications.pdf (sengpielaudio.com)

Guide: Understanding audio specifications and hardware | TechPowerUp Forums

For example, it explained THD+N this way:

Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (THD+N): A measurement of the amount of unwanted impurities in a given signal. Whereas Total Harmonic Distortion measures unwanted signals in the output, THD+N measures everything that manages to interefere with the output signal, from EMI to harmonic irregularities. Ideally, THD+N would be 0% at any tested level, meaning that the signal being sent into the system is identical to the one being played out of the system; but we live in an imperfect world where our audio equipment will pick up interference and noise and pass it along through the output signal. Be careful reading these specs as well, as an example it's very easy to mistake 0.013% for being better than 0.000013% (the latter is much smaller and closer to ideal 0% than the former is).

For more advanced readers:
Article: Understanding Digital Audio Measurements | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Guidelines for Measuring Audio Power Amplifier Performance (Rev. A) (ti.com)

If you need any help in understanding any of the above linked articles, just ask and hopefully someone will have the answers for you.

 

[PENG]

I am not really sure what it is doing, particularly with respect to the bass, as there is no way to manually set the crossover or choose LFE vs LFE & Main (although I have speakers are set to small.

That usually means it has crossover fixed, likely at 80 Hz.

 

[TechToys2]

No problem, I'll try my best.
Some of the frequently quoted specs are:
- THD+N (Total harmonic distortions plus noise) in % or dB (with the "-" sign, e.g. -90 dB), the lower number the better.
- DNR (signal to noise ratio), the higher the better, but pay attention to the "weighting" in order to compare apples to apples.
- IMD (inter modulation distortions), like THD, the lower the better.

According to the manual, the Rotel has the following audio specs:

Continuous Amplifier Power 20–20k Hz, <0.09% THD, 8 ohms: 75 watts/ch (all channels driven) 1kHz, <1.0% THD, 8 ohms, DIN: 100 watts/ch (all channels driven)

Total Harmonic Distortion: <0.09% at rated power
Intermodulation Distortion (60 Hz: 7 kHz): <0.09% at rated power
Frequency Response (line level): 10 Hz - 70 kHz, ± 3 dB
Signal to Noise Ratio (IHF “A” weighted): 92 dB (Stereo) 70 dB (Dolby Digital)

Now compare that to the your SR6014's:

110 W + 110 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
10 Hz – 100 kHz — +1, –3 dB (Direct mode)
Digital
D/A output: Rated output — 2 V (at 0 dB playback)
Total harmonic distortion — 0.008 % (1 kHz, at 0 dB)
S/N ratio — 102 dB
Dynamic range — 100 dB

So you can see that the Rotel does not have better audio specs, I would say comparable. I also compared the SR6014's bench measurements, and its measured THD+N did meet or exceed the specified numbers. In the Rotel's service manual, I thought they included some measurements but when I read it again, I realized they were left blanked, I mistaken the specs for measurements the first time I took a quick glance.

To understand the specs and numbers, below are some useful links:
For audio terminologies:

Audio Terms and Definitions | Audioholics

More detailed explanation of specs:

Easy to read ones:

5 Important Specifications To Consider When Choosing An Amplifier | Cambridge Audio

Audio Specifications (ranecommercial.com)

Mathew-AudioPrecisionSpecifications.pdf (sengpielaudio.com)

Guide: Understanding audio specifications and hardware | TechPowerUp Forums

For example, it explained THD+N this way:

Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (THD+N): A measurement of the amount of unwanted impurities in a given signal. Whereas Total Harmonic Distortion measures unwanted signals in the output, THD+N measures everything that manages to interefere with the output signal, from EMI to harmonic irregularities. Ideally, THD+N would be 0% at any tested level, meaning that the signal being sent into the system is identical to the one being played out of the system; but we live in an imperfect world where our audio equipment will pick up interference and noise and pass it along through the output signal. Be careful reading these specs as well, as an example it's very easy to mistake 0.013% for being better than 0.000013% (the latter is much smaller and closer to ideal 0% than the former is).

For more advanced readers:
Article: Understanding Digital Audio Measurements | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Guidelines for Measuring Audio Power Amplifier Performance (Rev. A) (ti.com)

If you need any help in understanding any of the above linked articles, just ask and hopefully someone will have the answers for you.

Many thanks. I have some studying to do

 

[Sachb]

2. I'm not sure if I can answer this yet as I have not had room correction in the past. I thought room correction would be very helpful and was excited about Audyssey, but so far I have not had the success I had hoped. That may, however, be more on me, so the jury is still out.

By the way, I know that Yamaha was going to do one final run of the RX-A3080 (and I actually received a notice from a vendor that I could order a 2080 for delivery in 2-4 weeks), but since they are not discounting them, I was thinking it might make more sense to wait for the newer versions rather than paying for the older tech (whether I need it now or not)

Hmm, audyssey is complex, either it works or it does not. I thought my Denon with the Audyssey XT was the issue but it seems like even the XT32 is hit or a miss.

What I've experienced going from audyssey XT to Ypao RSC multipoint, is that I'm not fiddling much with the remote anymore.
I can give you some tips tho,

For movies & tv shows:

i) Set the dynamic eq (Reference offset) to 0 db
ii) Dynamic volume to light or off for better balance between the softest sounds in the movie & the loudest sound
iii) And put it on Reference

For music:

i) Set the dynamic eq (Reference offset) to either 15 or 10 db
ii) Dynamic volume to off, but occasionally can be set to light too.
iii) And put it on L/R bypass for better bass & mids for the left & right. It doesn't effect the center or surrounds which is sad.

So you're stuck with L/R bypass for the left & right speaker only. Correct me if I'm wrong. Reference will make it sound thin avoid it for music.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[Sachb]

So you can see how flawed the audyssey is..L/R bypass is the closest thing to getting the right sound for music.

Reference does roll of the highs too, but still didn't work well for music, atleast in my setup. Don't know why it did that to my Elacs.
Flat shouldn't be used at all, as it is brightest settings on a denon/marantz with overwhelming highs and little to no bass.

On my current yamaha reciever flat setting doesn't sound that bright but actually sounds natural.

Ypao has 3 settings which are natural, flat & through but also manual.
All these 3 settings to my ears sound better then audyssey's, reference, flat & l/r bypass respectively.

Now going on to bass settings:

Denon/Marantz has LFE + Main

Yamaha has Extra bass

Again here, I felt the yamaha did a better job with handling more bass.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk