HTP-1 vs AVM 70 vs 8805

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If I had 80k to spend, I would get the x8500h or A110 and spend the rest on speakers, amps, dacs and source media. I won't pay more for less, just my principle. If there is an avp that tops the chart then I would go for it.

More or Less of what?

Does this "chart" show that any of these AVRs have better sound quality, reliability, compatibility, or anything else? No. It does not. We all know that. Definitely doesn't show less heat production.

None of these specs have mattered that much in the past when all the 3rd party publications were doing them because they are inaudible. But all of the sudden these inaudible specs are now the major factor in deciding which components to buy because all the other publications have decided that these specs are NOT important enough for them to measure - because they are in....audible?

And the street price of the A110 AVR costs a lot more than the street price of the Yamaha CX-A5200 + MX-A5200 combined.

The street price of the X8500 is a few hundred less than the CX-A5200/MX-A5200. But then most people who buy the X8500 end up buying some amps for $2000-$3000, so there goes the cost savings. So you end up paying more and still have just an "AVR", instead of 100% separates AVP. Might as well just buy separates.

Now having said all that, I think AVRs are great. I love my RX-A3080 AVR. But the fact is, most people don't need external amps. So just buy the AVR to save money and don't spend another $2000-$3000 on amps. If you're going to spend $3K on amps, might as well just get the Pre-pro and get "Credit" for owning a 100% "Separate" system, instead of owning a "Lowly" AVR.

What's the takeaway message here, anyway?

Measurements for electronics have always been there. And they are 100% inaudible. So why should any of these numbers be a major factor in deciding what components to buy?

 

[ryanosaur]

According to most of the things I've heard from others that have played with any of those other options, none are working very well.
The Monolith HTP-1 is basically reduced to minor nuisance bugs. Presumably, the Datasat being the ATI Flagship version of the HTP-1 should be very functional given the track record with the Monoprice unit.
Storm, Trinnov, JBL Synthesis, Anthem... oh... and Emo for anyone that still considers them to be a player in this game... all are buggy with people dumping the gear for...
...the HTP-1.
*shrugs

For anyone that wants to complain about the ASR review, it is well documented pretty much everywhere I've looked that Amir is seemingly holding a grudge against the unit by not updating the review to account for his errors. Other numbers I've seen put Sinad (at more practical voltage) well above that of his insisted 4vrm measurement.
Dirac Live and the Bass Control module WORK.

At this point, the only thing I haven't caught wind of is the upgrade path to HDMI 2.1... which as we all know has it's inherent hardware problem. Considering it's only niche promise of usability at this point (gamers), I think ATI/Monoprice would be wise waiting until that chipset gets re-did before offering upgrades.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

According to most of the things I've heard from others that have played with any of those other options, none are working very well.
The Monolith HTP-1 is basically reduced to minor nuisance bugs. Presumably, the Datasat being the ATI Flagship version of the HTP-1 should be very functional given the track record with the Monoprice unit.
Storm, Trinnov, JBL Synthesis, Anthem... oh... and Emo for anyone that still considers them to be a player in this game... all are buggy with people dumping the gear for...
...the HTP-1.
*shrugs

For anyone that wants to complain about the ASR review, it is well documented pretty much everywhere I've looked that Amir is seemingly holding a grudge against the unit by not updating the review to account for his errors. Other numbers I've seen put Sinad (at more practical voltage) well above that of his insisted 4vrm measurement.
Dirac Live and the Bass Control module WORK.

At this point, the only thing I haven't caught wind of is the upgrade path to HDMI 2.1... which as we all know has it's inherent hardware problem. Considering it's only niche promise of usability at this point (gamers), I think ATI/Monoprice would be wise waiting until that chipset gets re-did before offering upgrades.

Wait, what? $30K AVPs from Storm, Trinnov, and JBL are all buggy? Say it ain't so.

 

[PENG]

More or Less of what?

More money for less performance!!

It doesn't matter that the lesser performance cannot be heard, if the budget is there and is to be spent, then I would get the one that performance the best even just on paper.. It is like if you only need 1 W average 100 W peak, you may still want an amp that can do 300 W. Why get an AVP/C if you are not going to use XLRs and it perform less well on paper? As I mentioned before, if XLR is needed then okay AVR is not the option regardless. Other than that it might be the cool factor/bragging right..

 

[ryanosaur]

Wait, what? $30K AVPs from Storm, Trinnov, and JBL are all buggy? Say it ain't so.

Buggy or unstable... or not delivering on all cylinders... *shrugs At their respective costs, that a $4K unit is working wher $5K+++ units are not... satisfying.... Do the math.

I look because I am interested in something that can deliver up to 7.x.6 channels, and preferably with a means of natively supporting 3 subs on individual channels. And I will not spend over $4k to do it. Just not in the cards, for me.

The HTP-1 recently updated with Wide Synth which has met with a fair bit of excitement from the Owners Thread at that other site. So 9.1(x).6 becomes an option (if you daisy chain your subs or use a MDSP solution). But early word on the Bass Module is very good.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

More money for less performance!!

It doesn't matter that the lesser performance cannot be heard, if the budget is there and is to be spent, then I would get the one that performance the best even just on paper.. It is like if you only need 1 W average 100 W peak, you may still want an amp that can do 300 W. Why get an AVP/C if you are not going to use XLRs and it perform less well on paper? As I mentioned before, if XLR is needed then okay AVR is not the option regardless. Other than that it might be the cool factor/bragging right..

Oh, paper performance.

Treating the paper, not the components.

In the medical field, it's like "treating the lab, not the patient".

Like Drug A reduces people's blood pressures from 140/90 to 120/70, and Drug B reduces people's blood pressures from 140/90 to 124/74. So Drug A "outperforms" Drug B on paper. But then we later find out that more people died while taking Drug A than people taking Drug B.

The point is, numbers will mean something only if the numbers can prove something meaningful - like mortality/morbidity (or reliability in electronics).

I can understand people buying AVRs because it's cheaper.

And if some numbers that someone compiled make people sleep better at night and say, "I don't need Separates because these numbers prove it", that's great for them.

But many people are in this hobby for reasons other than just "needs" and numbers. It makes them feel good. Sure, specs/numbers can make people feel better about their electronics. Whatever the personal reasons.

But everyone has a different reason.

So some people will prefer separates, and some people will prefer AVRs.

 

[Movie2099]

Buggy or unstable... or not delivering on all cylinders... *shrugs At their respective costs, that a $4K unit is working wher $5K+++ units are not... satisfying.... Do the math.

I look because I am interested in something that can deliver up to 7.x.6 channels, and preferably with a means of natively supporting 3 subs on individual channels. And I will not spend over $4k to do it. Just not in the cards, for me.

The HTP-1 recently updated with Wide Synth which has met with a fair bit of excitement from the Owners Thread at that other site. So 9.1(x).6 becomes an option (if you daisy chain your subs or use a MDSP solution). But early word on the Bass Module is very good.

I' m not disagreeing with you about the HTP-1. I think that Monoprice processor is awesome. I've read really solid reviews about it. Yes, there are some bugs and those bugs get fixed over time. Though i'm not so sure i've read the same complaints about Trinnov having multiple bugs, like you have. I can't speak for the Storm audio. We will find out more on Storm once Gene gets his theater up and running. Trinnov prides themselves on their software and heck most of the price you pay for their processor is for software. They build everything inhouse. Their customer service is top notch. If you have any problems what so ever, you can call them and they can legit take over your processor and troubleshoot it. That type of service is included with that $17k+ price. I mean, if I'm paying that kind of price, i should expect service like that.

As I keep telling people on here, ATI will be dropping some new stuff early next year. Yes, it will be awhile before people can get their hands on their stuff and test it out, but I can't wait to see their 16-channel processor.

 

[DJ7675]

It's not "all those benchmark sites".

It is just ONE site. A single site.

Back in the day, we could say, Stereo Review, Home Theater Magazine, Sound & Vision, Stereophile, Soundstage, AH, etc. confirmed the numbers - multiple 3rd party independent publications.

Today we have ONE.

And as you say, it's not the end-to-all since 100% of these numbers are 100% INAUDIBLE anyway. So it's not like any of these numbers are proven to show better Sound Quality, Reliability, Compatibility, or anything else.

One guy doing his measurements and people treat it like it's the end-to-all decision making. It's funny.

Back when we had multiple 3rd party measurements, I don't ever recall seeing this kind of almost cult-like treatment. So I guess we can thank S&V, Stereophile, Soundstage, and AH for no longer doing measurements.

Couple of comments:
1-You mention 100% inaudible many times any time any bench tests are brought up. With DACS and Amps,, what is your threshold of what is audible? And what is it based on?
2-Also in many of your comments you seem to paint with a very wide brush in regards to anyone that might consider bench tests an important part in selecting a piece of gear. I have seen you even go so far as referring to it as a “cult”. There may be people that simply look at the chart and buy the ones at the top without any regard to any other important factors, but I would think that would be the exception rather than the rule.
For me: Stability, Ease of use in day to day, Good EQ (in particular under 500hz), loudness compensation, reliability, etc actually are my first criteria... If a product does not meet these needs, they aren’t considered. Similarly, if a piece of gear measures horribly, it isn’t considered either..
Example 1 Emotiva measures well, but would not consider it due to stability.
Example 2 NAD T758 V3 measures poorly in both the DAC and amp. I had this unit and sent it in for testing. Why keep it when there are better performing units?
I have the X8500 which is at the top of the list, and I have had the NAD 758V3 which is at the bottom of the list. There is a difference, in particular at high volumes...So at some point, bench tests do matter in my opinion. Exactly what that point is, I don’t know. At least with bench tests, there will be some data out there. With that data, shoppers can use it how they see fit... if at all.

 

[PENG]

Couple of comments:
1-You mention 100% inaudible many times any time any bench tests are brought up. With DACS and Amps,, what is your threshold of what is audible? And what is it based on?
2-Also in many of your comments you seem to paint with a very wide brush in regards to anyone that might consider bench tests an important part in selecting a piece of gear. I have seen you even go so far as referring to it as a “cult”. There may be people that simply look at the chart and buy the ones at the top without any regard to any other important factors, but I would think that would be the exception rather than the rule.
For me: Stability, Ease of use in day to day, Good EQ (in particular under 500hz), loudness compensation, reliability, etc actually are my first criteria... If a product does not meet these needs, they aren’t considered. Similarly, if a piece of gear measures horribly, it isn’t considered either..
Example 1 Emotiva measures well, but would not consider it due to stability.
Example 2 NAD T758 V3 measures poorly in both the DAC and amp. I had this unit and sent it in for testing. Why keep it when there are better performing units?
I have the X8500 which is at the top of the list, and I have had the NAD 758V3 which is at the bottom of the list. There is a difference, in particular at high volumes...So at some point, bench tests do matter in my opinion. Exactly what that point is, I don’t know. At least with bench tests, there will be some data out there. With that data, shoppers can use it how they see fit... if at all.

I would add that better measurements in THD, IMD, FR, SNR, DR do matter in some cases even if the lower values are "inaudible", in the sense that it could/might provide some cushioning effects, like head room in amplifier power output. You may only need 50 W 90% of the time but if you have 200 W, that may increase to 100% of the time. Likewise, THD+N/SINAD of 0.1%/60dB and 0.05%/60dB measured with a 1 kHz signal, may make no difference in someone's setup/room listening to 70 dB spl level, but it may, for someone under the same conditions but listening to reference level.

Also, 0.1% THD measured with a 1 kHz input signal, may increase to 0.178% at 5 kHz, and someone with sharp hearing may just notice the higher distortions, in a quiet room listening to below 70 dB spl, or at reference level.

Not mean to pick on NAD, but the following graph seems to demonstrate well the point I am making, and I bet ADTG, being a young fellow, would likely be able to notice the elevated distortions if the music content is rich in high frequencies from 2.5 kHz up. Those with THD starting out at below 0.005%, 1 kHz, at rated output would more likely maintain a reasonably clean output under a much wider range of conditions.

Review and Measurements of NAD T777 AVR

This is a review and detailed measurements of the NAD T777 V3 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It is on kind loan from a generous member who has loaned me a bunch of other gear. The T777 is a high-end offering from NAD and costs US $2,750. The front panel and controls have some of the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Couple of comments:
1-You mention 100% inaudible many times any time any bench tests are brought up. With DACS and Amps,, what is your threshold of what is audible? And what is it based on?
2-Also in many of your comments you seem to paint with a very wide brush in regards to anyone that might consider bench tests an important part in selecting a piece of gear. I have seen you even go so far as referring to it as a “cult”. There may be people that simply look at the chart and buy the ones at the top without any regard to any other important factors, but I would think that would be the exception rather than the rule.
For me: Stability, Ease of use in day to day, Good EQ (in particular under 500hz), loudness compensation, reliability, etc actually are my first criteria... If a product does not meet these needs, they aren’t considered. Similarly, if a piece of gear measures horribly, it isn’t considered either..
Example 1 Emotiva measures well, but would not consider it due to stability.
Example 2 NAD T758 V3 measures poorly in both the DAC and amp. I had this unit and sent it in for testing. Why keep it when there are better performing units?
I have the X8500 which is at the top of the list, and I have had the NAD 758V3 which is at the bottom of the list. There is a difference, in particular at high volumes...So at some point, bench tests do matter in my opinion. Exactly what that point is, I don’t know. At least with bench tests, there will be some data out there. With that data, shoppers can use it how they see fit... if at all.

What's my threshold and what is it based on?

It is based on 2 things.

1. My personal experience comparing cheap $500 AVR (typical THD is 0.03%) to $7,500-$20,000 preamps that typically have THD much better than 0.003%.

I recall the worst THD I ever saw was about 0.08% from a $300 AVR. And it was inaudible.

2. Reading audio publications like The Audio Critic. Many people believe that you cannot hear THD less than 0.1% in real life.

Also, when people measure power outputs from amps, the numbers are from 0.1% THD and 1.0% THD. There is a good reason for that.

What do I mean by real life? Well, most speakers have THD greater than 0.1%. So if speakers have THD greater than 0.1%, why are people so hung up on having the absolute lowest THD of less than 0.001%?

Also, we have all kinds of NOISE in real life from not only Speakers, but from the ROOM.

What about fan noise that so many people put atop their AVR? Sure they are "inaudible" from 6FT to 10FT away. But they are more audible than any of these THD and SINAD specs.

And then you add all kinds of sounds from the music or movies at 75-90dB from 7-15 speakers.

Here's another example. I've seen many people complain that they can't even HEAR their Atmos speakers. The reason is because all the other speakers are blazing away and they can't actually hear their Atmos speakers. So how can they possibly hear even 1% THD with all their speakers blazing away?

Here is what I mean by "Cult". Back when we had many publications that measured Distortion and Noise, we talked about the specs, but never talked like these numbers were the most important thing to look at.

Remember a long time ago when SPEAKERS and room Acoustics were the most important things, not electronics specs?

Remember a long time ago when reliability, features, functionality, stability, ease of use were the most important things, not electronics specs?

Now it seems these distortion and noise specs are the ONLY things some people talk about.

Have we proven that THD of 0.0007% results in better reliability, stability, functionality, less heat production, etc.? Absolutely Not!

What has changed from 2018 to 2020?

Have we improved our listening threshold? Absolutely not!

No, the ONLY change that occurred from 2018 to 2020 is that all publications stopped measuring distortion and noise specs and now the only person doing this measurement is Amir.

You mentioned "terrible measurements". For years, when we saw THD of 0.03% from AVR, many of us never thought, "Wow, 0.03% THD is a just absolutely TERRIBLE measurement! I can hear THD of 0.03%!"

So is THD of 0.03% now absolutely terrible?

The next question is, why did all these many publications STOP doing these distortion and noise measurements? Could it be because they are INAUDIBLE? Or maybe there is a conspiracy.

 

[Cos]

The Anthem AVM 70 isn't even out yet is it? I know they are going to review the receiver here soon. I like ARC on the Anthems, but stayed away from their receivers due to my dealer telling me about all the quality control headaches he had selling them, and how he was better off selling their factory refurbished models.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Anthem AVM 70 isn't even out yet is it? I know they are going to review the receiver here soon. I like ARC on the Anthems, but stayed away from their receivers due to my dealer telling me about all the quality control headaches he had selling them, and how he was better off selling their factory refurbished models.

Wow, that's crazy!

Refurbished units being more reliable than their brand new units?

I think I vaguely remember you saying this before, but I probably didn't want to believe it. How can refurbished be more reliable than brand new?

 

[lovinthehd]

Wow, that's crazy!

Refurbished units being more reliable than their brand new units?

I think I vaguely remember you saying this before, but I probably didn't want to believe it. How can refurbished be more reliable than brand new?

Difference in quality assurance procedures? Maybe they really work on refurbs (or needed to)?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Difference in quality assurance procedures? Maybe they really work on refurbs (or needed to)?

Either way, it's not a good sign.

 

[Cos]

Don't get me wrong, I really liked the Pre/Pros. My first Pre/Pro was the AVM30, moved up to the AVM50, then everyone else caught up at a much lower price point.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't get me wrong, I really liked the Pre/Pros. My first Pre/Pro was the AVM30, moved up to the AVM50, then everyone else caught up at a much lower price point.

Yeah I don't think there is a difference in SQ among any of the AVP's. But then again, I don't like Room EQ either.

The difference in price is always a major factor.

Reliability gotta be #1 factor.

 

[PENG]

I would stay away from boutique brand AVRs and AVPs. Just because they can make integrated amps and separates that performed well (at much higher price/perf ratio), it does not mean they have the resource to make the much more complicated products such as AVP/C and AVRs. I like Anthem and NAD amps but would never spend my hard earn money on their AVP/C/Rs. Those problem prone products are better managed/produced by mass producers such as Sony, D+M, Yamaha, Pioneer, even Onkyo.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would stay away from boutique brand AVRs and AVPs. Just because they can make integrated amps and separates that performed well (at much higher price/perf ratio), it does not mean they have the resource to make the much more complicated products such as AVP/C and AVRs. I like Anthem and NAD amps but would never spend my hard earn money on their AVP/C/Rs. Those problem prone products are better managed/produced by mass producers such as Sony, D+M, Yamaha, Pioneer, even Onkyo.

I think most of us would absolutely agree with that.

These boutique brands don’t measure any better, nor do they sound any better. This might be one of the takeaway messages of any measurement comparison - whether it’s ASR, AH, S&V, Stereophile, or Soundstage.

 

[Erod]

I would stay away from boutique brand AVRs and AVPs. Just because they can make integrated amps and separates that performed well (at much higher price/perf ratio), it does not mean they have the resource to make the much more complicated products such as AVP/C and AVRs. I like Anthem and NAD amps but would never spend my hard earn money on their AVP/C/Rs. Those problem prone products are better managed/produced by mass producers such as Sony, D+M, Yamaha, Pioneer, even Onkyo.

The AVM60 is the most problem-fee and best-sounding amp I've ever owned. Granted, I bought mine a couple years after it was released because I don't early adopt as standard practice. But I wouldn't put Anthem/Paradigm firmly in that "boutique" category anyway.

I'm making the jump to 9.2.6 soon - the front wides and top middles are already installed and wired - so I'll be deciding on a 15-channel amp eventually.

 

[erpauls]

That is good to know Erod. BTW, never heard of a 15channel amp that wasn't purely a distribution amp. am I right to assume you mean another amp to get you up to the 15 channels? That of course is another thing I have to decide on...the amps. While I will need 11 channels of amplification not including if I go passives on subs I am really not excited about the 11 channel amps. They usually have a lot of the channels being split amps. Seems 7channel is about as high as you can go keeping them all equal. I realize that the atmos speakers will not be on par with the LCR....but who knows what you might want in the future and I like the idea of having all speakers matched as closely as possible. including power.
So, I guess I am considering a 7 Channel and a 5 Channel. But I need to decide on speakers probably before I choose the amps.
That is proving to be my toughest dilemma - the speakers. As a matter of fact I think I will start a thread on that topic in the speaker area.