The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Most of the time, speakers need no more than 2W to produce a volume of 85dB.

This is an amazing point. I wish there was a meter that would tell us exactly how many watts each channel is getting so we could understand how many watts we truly need and what a given output sounds/feels like... I do appreciate the calculator that PENG shared but seeing would really be believing.

Well, remember @PENG posted his observation with the McIntosh amp powering the big KEF Blade tower which has 4 x 9" Woofers in FULL RANGE mode, which is equivalent to 2 x 12" Woofers.

Most of the time, the Watt-meter on the McIntosh Amp was showing 1 Watt of power.

Now those 4 x 9" woofers will require > 100W if they are being pushed.

But even if people power their towers in Full Range Mode, most towers don't have 4 x 9" woofers, 2 x 12" woofers, or even 2 x 10" woofers.

The Klipsch RF7-III with 2 x 10" woofers in Full Range mode might want 100W if you really push them.

And most people have towers that have 2 x 8" woofers, 2 x 6.5" woofers, or 2 x 5.25" woofers in their 16 x 18 rooms listening from 12FT away?

But it probably doesn't hurt to own a 200WPC MCH amp.

 

[PENG]

As you know, I measured 86 dB at my 11 foot listening position with both Salon2's playing. That would point a limited power requirement.
I have listened to the Yamaha 100 WPC AVR (I forgot the model now) driving the Salon2s and it was meh.
Perhaps, I will always be an amp guy but there is a value in an amplifier that remains linear under load.

I suspect that in most rooms, the rated SPL (with honest ratings) translate into the listening position from 2 speakers with room gain.
When I first bought the AHB2, the Salon2s were driven by a single amp. These are 180 WPC into 4 ohms and watching Aquaman loud was not clipping the amp driving the Salon2s full range. I was not clipping for my normal loud listening levels for music and movies.

Here is a description by Benchmark's John Siau of the clipping indicators on the AHB2:


I wish all amps and AVRs had clip indication.

- Rich

By the way, good to see you show up once in the blue moon. Do you still have your AV8802 (or just the 8801), if you do, would love to hear you take on how it compares to you avr-x3700h, two channel, pure direct, analog inputs only. If you only have the 8801, then don't bother because I have already compare it to just about everything I have.. You probably know I don't pay attention to subjective reviews anymore, but am always interested in one if you are to do one.

 

[PENG]

dB ratings are peak, average would be 80/65 movies/music


^^ That's what I had doubt about, because couldn't find an answer, thanks!


Appreciate your help!

Okay then let's do it for movies, because of the higher spl requirement so if it works for movies it will work for music.

Since you are concerned about the effects of impedance below 8 ohms, below the results based on 3 scenarios, 2,4, and 8 ohm nomin

Sorry, firsts posts in Audio community, so don't know how to be precisely correct
Speakers are 0.67ft from the wall. They are in open space, side walls are 6.5ft apart.
dB ratings are peak, average would be 80/65 movies/music


^^ That's what I had doubt about, because couldn't find an answer, thanks!


Appreciate your help!

Okay then let's do it for movies, because of the higher spl requirement so if it works for movies it will work for music.

Since you are concerned about the effects of impedance below 8 ohms, below the results based on 3 scenarios, 2,4, and 8 ohm nominal impedance:

Note: The results are based on just one speaker playing, and assumed 3 dB room gain, as Focal likely have, in their sensitivity specs of 92.5 dB. From the calculated results, I highly doubt the AVR-X3500H was struggling, though if you push it just a little, if would for sure.

 

[pharaon]

Note: The results are based on just one speaker playing, and assumed 3 dB room gain, as Focal likely have, in their sensitivity specs of 92.5 dB.

Wow, PENG, thanks alot for calculations and clarification, that was my biggest concern!

From the calculated results, I highly doubt the AVR-X3500H was struggling, though if you push it just a little, if would for sure.

Just a little means..? And those calculations are for one speaker, so for two Arias would be x 2, correct?
Is there a possibility to somehow calculate X3500 potential with my 5.0 system? (Arias 948 front, CC700 center and 716's surround). Target dB the same - 80 (peak ±90)

One question on topic - which AVR/stereo amp parameter defines dynamic for driving speakers?
I mean my Aria's have 2 x 8.25 woofers, wouldn't it be easier for higher class AVR or stereo amp with good damping factor to do this job?
This question came, when I changed Denon X1500 to current X3500 and watching movies LF effects (like explosions, car crashes, etc.) were more engaging and deep. Or was it placebo?

 

[RichB]

By the way, good to see you show up once in the blue moon. Do you still have your AV8802 (or just the 8801), if you do, would love to hear you take on how it compares to you avr-x3700h, two channel, pure direct, analog inputs only. If you only have the 8801, then don't bother because I have already compare it to just about everything I have.. You probably know I don't pay attention to subjective reviews anymore, but am always interested in one if you are to do one.

I gave up on Marantz after my 8801 multiple trigger and power receptacle debacle. Although, word is they implemented a robust trigger in the AV8805.

Yesterday, I ordered an ATI AT525NC (5-channel) amp for the family vacation home that will replace the circa 1999 Sunfire Cinema (200 WPC) amp to go with the Denon AVR-3700 used as a preamp (amps off). I liked this amp with the Revel M20 speakers and also liked the AT4000 as well. I felt the AT522NC was a bit brighter than AT4002 driving the M20's which is not what I expected.

Since we rent in the summer and there is no AC, the lower power and heat is a plus.

- Rich

 

[Bonscott]

Marantz just released AV7706 today. $2499. Says available now

 

[PENG]

Wow, PENG, thanks alot for calculations and clarification, that was my biggest concern!


Just a little means..? And those calculations are for one speaker, so for two Arias would be x 2, correct?
Is there a possibility to somehow calculate X3500 potential with my 5.0 system? (Arias 948 front, CC700 center and 716's surround). Target dB the same - 80 (peak ±90)

One question on topic - which AVR/stereo amp parameter defines dynamic for driving speakers?
I mean my Aria's have 2 x 8.25 woofers, wouldn't it be easier for higher class AVR or stereo amp with good damping factor to do this job?
This question came, when I changed Denon X1500 to current X3500 and watching movies LF effects (like explosions, car crashes, etc.) were more engaging and deep. Or was it placebo?

X2 for stereo is about right, if you add more, like 3, 4, 5, the increase is not linear even if they all fire at the same time, and they don't, except if you are using 5, 7 channel stereo when they all get the same signal all the time.

For dynamic, I would say the important parameters are the current output capability. Manufacturers don't tell you much about that but you can get a good idea from the following graph:

See that the 3500 can do about 180 W at 1% distortion. At the 90 dB spl you listen to, you only need 12.66 W, 4 ohms, so that means you can get about 102 dB with just one speaker and distortions will be about 1%, meaning the amp will still be well within its linear range.

Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3500H Home Theater Audio Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member. The AVR-X3500H is a 2018 model but it is still available from Amazon for US $599 despite having a retail price of US $999. If it performs, this is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3600H 9.2 channel AVR. It was purchased new by a kind member who drop shipped it to me. It costs US $1,099. From outside the AVR-X3600H seems like any other AVR: But the controls feel a lot better than some other AVRs. The...

www.audiosciencereview.com

ASR did not do the CEA-2006 dynamic power test on the X3500H, but you can look at the one for the X3600H and my be discount it by about 10-15% and that should be what the 3500 would do:

Your X3500H should be fine for a 5.1 system based on your relatively low spl requirements, I guess volume would be around -20 to -15 right? Just because that little one can do it, doesn't mean you don't give it some help.

Get one of this:
AT523NC 3-channel Amplifier (200W RMS per channel) $2,595.00

 

[PENG]

This question came, when I changed Denon X1500 to current X3500 and watching movies LF effects (like explosions, car crashes, etc.) were more engaging and deep. Or was it placebo?

My guess is that it was not Placebo. You are really pushing the envelope trying to get great results driving the Aria with an AVR-X1500H. Even with the much more robust X3500H, as I said before, you would be fine only because of your 90 dB spl peak movie requirement.

It's not that those lower to mid range AVR can't make your speakers sound loud enough, but if the 948's impedance curve is anything like the 936, and I bet they are, likely even worse, the AVR-X1500H would have trouble delivering the needed current in the bass range from around 70-400 Hz. Most people who own those Aria speakers would never know if an AVR without the help of the good power amp can do the job, because they won't even try. I think in most cases they would be right.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Marantz just released AV7706 today. $2499. Says available now

Looks like they increased the price of the AV7706 by $300 from the AV7705.

I wonder if all the prices will be increased. I guess that's normal and expected.

I bet the AV8806 price will most likely be increased (whenever that is released).

Yamaha increased the price of the RX-A8 by $1,000 from the RX-A3080.

 

[RichB]

The AV7706 still has composite and component video inputs. Yikes.

- Rich

 

[mtrot]

The AV7706 still has composite and component video inputs. Yikes.

- Rich

Yeah, I'd say a minuscule number of people will ever use those inputs. OTOH, a USB input that could play music from a computer would be widely used. Heck, if I could find a nice AVR with a quality built-in DAC that could do that, I might get rid of my DAC. My Denon AVR-X5200 has a USB input on the front, but it will only play music files off of a USB stick type of device.

 

[RichB]

Yeah, I'd say a minuscule number of people will ever use those inputs. OTOH, a USB input that could play music from a computer would be widely used. Heck, if I could find a nice AVR with a quality built-in DAC that could do that, I might get rid of my DAC. My Denon AVR-X5200 has a USB input on the front, but it will only play music files off of a USB stick type of device.

+1 for USB DAC and add Native multi-channel Roon support.
The Japanese brands seems to look at each others products to determine the feature set.
The dam has to break one-day.

- Rich

 

[mtrot]

+1. USB DAC and Native Roon support that supports multi-channel audio as well.
The Japanese brands seems to look at each others products to determine the feature set.
The dam has to break one-day.

- Rich

And Amazon Music as well. Amazon just announced they are going to have multi-channel music. I currently listen to Amazon Music HD from my laptop to my DAC.

One time, I connected the laptop to my Denon AVR-X5200 with HDMI, and I was able to play Amazon Music HD up to 24/192 music, which sounded really nice through the Denon. However, there were a lot of hasslesome sync issues involved and not worth the time to get it to work.

 

[lovinthehd]

And Amazon Music as well. Amazon just announced they are going to have multi-channel music. I currently listen to Amazon Music HD from my laptop to my DAC.

One time, I connected the laptop to my Denon AVR-X5200 with HDMI, and I was able to play Amazon Music HD up to 24/192 music, which sounded really nice through the Denon. However, there were a lot of hasslesome sync issues involved and not worth the time to get it to work.

Got a link to that info about Amazon doing multichannel?

 

[mtrot]

Got a link to that info about Amazon doing multichannel?

I'm not sure I understand it well, but here is a quote and link:

"Additionally, Amazon Music has remixed songs from artists like Eagles, Elton John, Linkin Park, Tom Petty, Grande, Gaga, Post Malone and more in 3D Audio formats, including Dolby Atmos and Sony 360RA."

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/streaming/9459234/amazon-music-universal-music-and-warner-music-songs-hd-catalog/

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm not sure I understand it well, but here is a quote and link:

"Additionally, Amazon Music has remixed songs from artists like Eagles, Elton John, Linkin Park, Tom Petty, Grande, Gaga, Post Malone and more in 3D Audio formats, including Dolby Atmos and Sony 360RA."

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/streaming/9459234/amazon-music-universal-music-and-warner-music-songs-hd-catalog/

That's not multichannel....thats 2ch Dolby Atmos

 

[mtrot]

That's not multichannel....thats 2ch Dolby Atmos

Ahh, thanks. I didn't know that. "3D" for some reason, made me think "multi-channel". What is Sony 360RA?

 

[lovinthehd]

Ahh, thanks. I didn't know that. "3D" for some reason, made me think "multi-channel". What is Sony 360RA?

Not sure, assume it is similar to the 2ch Dolby Atmos, some sort of algorithm to artificially provide some sense of surround.

 

[pharaon]

Your X3500H should be fine for a 5.1 system based on your relatively low spl requirements, I guess volume would be around -20 to -15 right?

While watching action movies @Netflix, it's -15 to -10, in rare cases even -5.

Just because that little one can do it, doesn't mean you don't give it some help. Get one of this:
AT523NC 3-channel Amplifier (200W RMS per channel) $2,595.00

Why specifically this power-amp? What about budget ones like Emotiva (A-300)? I've read many good reviews about them.

My guess is that it was not Placebo. You are really pushing the envelope trying to get great results driving the Aria with an AVR-X1500H. Even with the much more robust X3500H, as I said before, you would be fine only because of your 90 dB spl peak movie requirement.

What I'm trying to do is to get better understanding of how one or other components affect SQ and not to become Audiophile, who's buying like 4 devices (stereo amp, power amp, DAC, etc..) to get similar sound to AVR, but due to placebo is saying "SQ differs like day and night"
Power-amp in my case would help just in those rare cases, when sound level peaks to 90+ dB and has lots of bass, right? If I would listen e.g. classical music@90db, I would be fine?

 

[lovinthehd]

@pharaon if you're listening to Netflix at -10 to -5 range and if you're calibrated to the THX standard that would yield average levels of 75-80 dB and peaks of 95-100 dB....