Unraveling of America? Is the decline of our "empire" a given at this point?

diskreet

diskreet

Audioholic
You know there are conservatives and Republicans that are just as offended by Trump, even in this forum or the Steam Vent for that matter?
I would love to explore this more. How is someone offended by Trump when he's just removed the filter? Outside of not being a chicken hawk and starting another endless war, he espouses everything the GOP has stood for for decades. To me it looks a lot like they either don't understand/care what their party stands for, or just don't like the social stigma of being so open about it. What am I missing?
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I have been following this thread loosely and to be honest I find the majority of the comments completely unhinged. The general sweeping portals of anybody who is not left leaning in unbelievable. Folks who are republican or trump supporters are called stupid, uneducated, abusers of women, and I can go on... I am actually ashamed of this forum. I have been a member for about 12 years now and actually feel as though I am not welcome here. I am sad to read the comments made about me and many of my friends and family. And just to be clear. Every stereotype that has been brought up does not fit me or my family. It is so sad to see people openly talk about this country as though they understand it all so clearly, yet you all clearly show in your comments that you do not understand the country. Only the bubbles you live in. I watch our country right now and am saddened. I don’t see all the smart folks on this forum trying to understand each other, just trying to convince themselves they are right or smarter that the opposing view. I am going to assume we are all very smart and educated folks on the forum, or we would likely not be able to participate in this forum. But as soon as somebody is on the other side, you are now stupid or racist on misinformed.... quite interesting to me.



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I can understand why you might feel unwelcome, as Trump is not terribly popular with the progressives - or most of the conservatives (as far as I can tell) - who frequent this forum.
Can you tell us what Trump has done or, not done, that gets him your support?
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Most of you probably are aware of the dismantling of democracy in some former Eastern Block states by the far right, and the same fate could very well happen to USA.

In a Vox article https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21449634/republicans-supreme-court-gop-trump-authoritarian there are some interesting observations about the current, and not so current, GOP:

"...​
Experts on comparative politics say the GOP is an extremist outlier, no longer belonging in the same conversation with “normal” right-wing parties like Canada’s Conservative Party (CPC) or Germany’s Christian Democratic Party (CDU). Instead, it more closely resembles more extreme right parties — like Viktor Orbán’s Fidesz in Hungary or Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s AKP in Turkey — that have actively worked to dismantle democracy in their own countries.​
...​
“The only way we move forward is when Republicans reform, and cease to be an increasingly authoritarian white nationalist party,” says Steven Levitsky, a Harvard professor and the co-author (with Daniel Ziblatt) of How Democracies Die.​
...​
A 2019 survey of nearly 2,000 experts on political parties from around the world asked respondents to rate political parties on two axes: the extent to which they are committed to basic democratic principles and their commitment to protecting rights for ethnic minorities. The higher the number, the more anti-democratic and intolerant the party is.​
The following chart shows the results of the survey for all political parties in the OECD, a group of wealthy democratic states, with the two major American parties highlighted in red. The GOP is an extreme outlier compared to mainstream conservative parties in other wealthy democracies, like Canada’s CPC or Germany’s CDU.​
Its closest peers are, almost uniformly, radical right and anti-democratic parties. This includes Turkey’s AKP (a regime that is one of the world’s leading jailers of journalists), and Poland’s PiS (which has threatened dissenting judges with criminal punishment). Experts rate the GOP as substantially more hostile to minority rights than Hungary’s Fidesz, an authoritarian party that has made demonization of Muslim immigrants into a pillar of its official ideology.​
author.png
(Subtext of image: The Democratic Party does somewhat better than the global average on metrics of respect for norms and support for ethnic minority rights. The GOP does not. Pippa Norris/Global Parties Survey )​
In short, there is a consensus among comparative politics scholars that the Republican Party is one of the most anti-democratic political parties in the developed world. It is one of a handful of once-centrist parties that has, in recent years, taken a turn toward the extreme.​
“The transformation of the GOP is in line with other transformations of conservative into far-right parties, like Fidesz in Hungary,” said Cas Mudde, an expert on right-wing politics at the University of Georgia.​
...​
Any effort to fix American politics needs to be clear-eyed on this point: The Republican Party is so beyond what’s normal in a healthy democracy that some kind of radical pro-democracy reform is required — be it ending the filibuster, court-packing, DC and Puerto Rico statehood, a new Voting Rights Act, or all of above — to try and turn things around.​
“The Republicans pose too much of an authoritarian threat,” Harvard’s Levitsky tells me, “to simply go on with business as usual.”​
"​
Edit: Hopefully the image issue was resolved.​
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I have been following this thread loosely and to be honest I find the majority of the comments completely unhinged. The general sweeping portals of anybody who is not left leaning in unbelievable. Folks who are republican or trump supporters are called stupid, uneducated, abusers of women, and I can go on... I am actually ashamed of this forum. I have been a member for about 12 years now and actually feel as though I am not welcome here. I am sad to read the comments made about me and many of my friends and family. And just to be clear. Every stereotype that has been brought up does not fit me or my family. It is so sad to see people openly talk about this country as though they understand it all so clearly, yet you all clearly show in your comments that you do not understand the country. Only the bubbles you live in. I watch our country right now and am saddened. I don’t see all the smart folks on this forum trying to understand each other, just trying to convince themselves they are right or smarter that the opposing view. I am going to assume we are all very smart and educated folks on the forum, or we would likely not be able to participate in this forum. But as soon as somebody is on the other side, you are now stupid or racist on misinformed.... quite interesting to me.



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The name-calling, etc is part of the problem with any online discussion, argument or whatever you want to use as the name for it. There are no absolutes.

Part of the issue is that both the Democrats and Republicans in whatever form they choose perceive the country as being in bad shape, but because so many can't discuss it in a civil manner, it escalates to yelling, insults and name-calling. Because of this, no solutions will come. ONLY when cooler heads prevail will positive changes happen. People become emotional when hot buttons are pressed- it's part of who we are in the animal kingdom.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Dam! I knew it! told everyone just because we are in the 1% club, my friend goes, but them dudes over there on that million dollar boat shouldn't stop us from getting on the boat. I had to show my friend the 1 % club that we are in 0.000000001% my friend goes dam! they Reversed it on us huh? :p:D
A million dollars doesn't buy as much boat as it used to. The ones who have the big bucks are looking at the high tens of millions for some way to approach impressing their friends.

BTW- a lot of people who don't have a ton of cash buy something that's sound but needs work. The problem is after it's finished, they turn into asshats because they think they're part of the 'I'm Rich And You're Not' Club.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Most of you probably are aware of the dismantling of democracy in some former Eastern Block states by the far right, and the same fate could very well happen to USA.
There are some who are, but we are generally oblivious of political concerns outside of the USA. As unfortunate as it is, it does make some sense, what happens in the US will often have ripple effects (especially with someone like Trump undercutting alliances); however, it takes a very major event in Belgium to have any significant effect over here!
Monty Python did an excellent job of parodying this phenomenon in their "News for Parrots" sketch where a accident is "headlined", but is then immediately summarized/concluded as "Thankfully, no parrots died" and they move on to the next story!
Of the ones you mentioned, I was only aware (with any depth) of Hungary, and that is only because I have a friend who is a Hungarian immigrant and still has lots of family over there she talks with!
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
There are some who are, but we are generally oblivious of political concerns outside of the USA. As unfortunate as it is, it does make some sense, what happens in the US will often have ripple effects (especially with someone like Trump undercutting alliances); however, it takes a very major event in Belgium to have any significant effect over here!
Monty Python did an excellent job of parodying this phenomenon in their "News for Parrots" sketch where a accident is "headlined", but is then immediately summarized/concluded as "Thankfully, no parrots died" and they move on to the next story!
Of the ones you mentioned, I was only aware (with any depth) of Hungary, and that is only because I have a friend who is a Hungarian immigrant and still has lots of family over there she talks with!
The dismantling of democracy started before Trump was elected, but could accelerate with Trump in power both due to being "apologist" or downright support the dismantling. US ambassadors to German and Netherlands are supporting far right parties/movements in those countries as well as other countries.


That said, the EU response to it's own members has been feeble, to put it mildly.
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I can understand why you might feel unwelcome, as Trump is not terribly popular with the progressives - or most of the conservatives (as far as I can tell) - who frequent this forum.
Can you tell us what Trump has done or, not done, that gets him your support?
I voted for trump primarily because I believe our government is ripe with corruption and lack of accountability. I am tired of pooring my tax money in the drain. Our government is a joke and if any accountability were in place like the private sector most would not have jobs right now. I like the idea of a new person coming in and shaking it up. Overall trump has delivered on his campaign promises. Most would agree he has done well with the economy and with trade. The numbers show it. Some may not agree with his tactics but the numbers were good. I like the challenges and pushback on China, they are the biggest risk to our county. He has started the wall. Most are opposed but we need to do something. Nobody for almost 15 years had tried to tackle immigration. Everyone looks the other way. I think he is draining the swamp hence folks on both sides who don’t like him. I also like the fact he challenges the UN and WHO. We continue to pump money into what exactly.. why not invest that into our country.

In general he does say stupid things, does not always speak like a politician. But in general most know what his real intent is. Many time the media takes his statements out of context and just pushes the panic and drama buttons. It really doesn’t bother me. I can see past it.

As far as COVID goes, I think he has done a decent job. I am not confident somebody else would have done much better. We ventured into uncharted waters and we have plenty of Monday morning quarter backs out there. I don’t recall anybody in March, April and May providing any counterpoints, just bitching a lot. The only solution I hear is keep it locked down, that is not a solution and America will not tolerate it. So all in all death rates are a terrible reality, but still at or lower than most projections.

So I guess that sums it up. I am sure the scopes will be sited it and I will get a bunch of links to research and polls now.


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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... They discourage individuals from bettering them selves and climbing the ladder.
...
That is interesting since corporation management and workforce is a pyramid shape, one at the top and increases going down. . Very few can climb ladders like when there is an opening or business expansion perhaps. So, it is not easy to climb the ladder, the room is narrow.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
The dismantling of democracy started before Trump was elected, but could accelerate with Trump in power both due to being "apologist" or downright support the dismantling. US ambassadors to German and Netherlands are supporting far right parties/movements in those countries as well as other countries.


That said, the EU response to it's own members has been feeble, to put it mildly.
Scary stuff. :eek:
One way to dismantle EU and democracy. The seed is being planted.
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
That is interesting since corporation management and workforce is a pyramid shape, one at the top and increases going down. . Very few can climb ladders like when there is an opening or business expansion perhaps. So, it is not easy to climb the ladder, the room is narrow.
Not sure I agree. We have opportunities frequently to move to a higher paying hourly job or move to a salaried job. Most all the openings are filled internally. My prior company I worked with was the same. So I don’t see that in my world of work. I would bet between 30-50% of the GMs at my sites are people who worked their way up from an hourly job.


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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Not sure I agree. We have opportunities frequently to move to a higher paying hourly job or move to a salaried job. Most all the openings are filled internally. My prior company I worked with was the same. So I don’t see that in my world of work. I would bet between 30-50% of the GMs at my sites are people who worked their way up from an hourly job.


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May not have expressed myself well. The numbers of jobs up the ladder steps decrease rapidly. Of course company will try to fill openings from within.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I voted for trump primarily because I believe our government is ripe with corruption and lack of accountability. I am tired of pooring my tax money in the drain. Our government is a joke and if any accountability were in place like the private sector most would not have jobs right now. I like the idea of a new person coming in and shaking it up.
I agree that some agencies are like this, but the way he has tinkered with the CDC, for example, is not pleasing me much. Nor the Commerce Department, which, oddly, includes the National Weather Service, nor the FDA, which is part of Health and Human Services. Trump always seems to act with an ax rather than a scalpel. His handling of the Hurricane Maria situation in Puerto Rico, including his bullying of the Puerto Rican officials did not please me much either, to name just a few examples.

Overall trump has delivered on his campaign promises.
Only the ones I don't care about, it would seem. He and the GOP are always intent on dismantling the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), but after over three years he's made no progress on healthcare at all. He has tried to cut some red tape out of environmental reviews, but in the process screwed up some environmental protections. His position on coal was dumb, and fortunately the natural gas market is shutting it down anyway. His jousting with a windmill in an attempt to buy Greenland was just plain embarrassing. I don't think the wall is a good idea, and while he has appointed a lot of conservative judges, I can't say I view the appointments as a huge factor for me. I am glad he filled vacancies Obama didn't.

Most would agree he has done well with the economy and with trade. The numbers show it. Some may not agree with his tactics but the numbers were good.
I disagree. Getting tough with China was awesome, but taking on our allies at the same time? Way dumb, and especially our closest allies, like Canada.

I like the challenges and pushback on China, they are the biggest risk to our county. He has started the wall. Most are opposed but we need to do something. Nobody for almost 15 years had tried to tackle immigration. Everyone looks the other way. I think he is draining the swamp hence folks on both sides who don’t like him. I also like the fact he challenges the UN and WHO. We continue to pump money into what exactly.. why not invest that into our country.
I agree about the UN. I've been tired of their anti-US attitude for decades. But his arguments with and defunding of the WHO were dumb, and he couldn't have chosen worse timing if he had 50 years to try.

In general he does say stupid things, does not always speak like a politician. But in general most know what his real intent is. Many time the media takes his statements out of context and just pushes the panic and drama buttons. It really doesn’t bother me. I can see past it.

As far as COVID goes, I think he has done a decent job. I am not confident somebody else would have done much better. We ventured into uncharted waters and we have plenty of Monday morning quarter backs out there. I don’t recall anybody in March, April and May providing any counterpoints, just bitching a lot. The only solution I hear is keep it locked down, that is not a solution and America will not tolerate it. So all in all death rates are a terrible reality, but still at or lower than most projections.

So I guess that sums it up. I am sure the scopes will be sited it and I will get a bunch of links to research and polls now.
I'm sorry, but I think he's done a damned lousy job on COVID. His administration demonstrated the worst lack of federal leadership on PPE, on setting care standards, on leading on charge on getting the US population to take this seriously, in my lifetime. Encouraging people not to wear masks, take unapproved drugs, pressuring the FDA and the CDC to align with his campaign objectives, and misrepresenting the effectiveness of testing are all inexcusable. He is doing what's necessary to prepare for vaccine distribution, and paying for up-front risk-taking manufacturing, but overall, at best, being hugely generous, he rates only a D-.
 
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J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I'm sorry, but I think he's done a damned lousy job on COVID. His administration demonstrated the worst lack of federal leadership on PPE, on setting care standards, on leading on charge on getting the US population to take this seriously, in my lifetime. Encouraging people not to wear masks, take unapproved drugs, pressuring the FDA and the CDC to align with his campaign objectives, and misrepresenting the effectiveness of testing are all inexcusable. He is doing what's necessary to prepare for vaccine distribution, and paying for up-front rack-taking manufacturing, but overall, at best, being hugely generous, he rates only a D-.[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry just don’t see it that way. Think he did a reasonable job. He was the first to act on this and called on the carpet for his actions by the left as racist policies. I think their are some I’m guessing you who wanted the president to tell every state what to do and how to do it. I don’t agree. Each state is unique and each should act in the best way for their citizens. I like the fact he forced the states to own their areas. I just don’t see the issue around masks, I believe he followed the guidance provided from the CDC. I also believe the CDC does not run our country. They are not the all being power over us. They provide guidance. Not all guidance must be adhered to. I think the country wants to move on and we a some folks being a bunch of boat anchors. I don’t deny COVID, I just see that we have a solid grasp on it at this point and deaths and hospitalizations are going down in most areas.


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Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
death rates are a terrible reality, but still at or lower than most projections
The death rates went even lower just as soon as the data got rerouted from the CDC to the White House. :rolleyes:

Each state is unique and each should act in the best way for their citizens.
So how would Rhode Island go about joining Canada?
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I’m not sure RI can join Canada. Anybody could likely move there.

I also think RI to is unique in the the land mass is small and the population is high. So this makes it harder to manage. RI for example does not get a bump from all the lesser population density areas of say Massachusetts. Comparing just Boston to RI would be a more similar geographic population density. Mass can reap the benefits of the rural areas to help the state overall from a statistical stand point.


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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I’m not sure RI can join Canada. Anybody could likely move there.

I also think RI to is unique in the the land mass is small and the population is high. So this makes it harder to manage. RI for example does not get a bump from all the lesser population density areas of say Massachusetts. Comparing just Boston to RI would be a more similar geographic population density. Mass can reap the benefits of the rural areas to help the state overall from a statistical stand point.
I see you're taking Alex seriously. Big mistake.
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I have been around long enough to know Alex will be quite sarcastic. I thought it was interesting because he is from RI and I just spend 2 weeks in Mass and RI visiting family. So I got to experience COVID in NE. It was a much different experience than we have had in KY.


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